And none of those trades or free agent acquisitions matter if the Bucks hadn't drafted Giannis.
The Bulls drafted MJ, Pippen and Grant; then built around them with trades, free agency and a key draft pick, Tony Kukoc. The Warriors drafted Curry, Thompson, Green, Poole and Looney and have from time to time picked up vets like Iggy and Durant in other ways.
The Wolves drafted Edwards, KAT and McDaniels. There are different ways to build around those three. The Wolves have rounded out their core DLO and Gobert. They traded a total of 6 first-round picks and 1 second-rounder, along with 4 rotation players and a prospect (Bolmaro), for those latter two. It might all lead to a championship. I agree with Draymond that it works if Edwards becomes a superstar. I think he will, but we can't know for sure. He'll have to become that star within the window of Gobert's 4 year deal. I can definitely see that happening. But then again, it might not.
Yes, the draft is super important for getting those first two or three key pieces and I would never argue otherwise. But after that, it becomes trade currency more than anything. I guess the point is that you don't need a constant influx of late 1st and 2nd rounders that end up becoming key rotational pieces every year once you have your core in place. You become a much more attractive free agency destination. And I think Mpls/St. Paul has more to offer than Milwaukee!
As for "in order for the trade to work Ant will need to become a star" narrative, well, that's the case even if we didn't trade for Gobert. How often have we said KAT isn't going to win us a title as the best player? Ant needed to become the best player in a non-Gobert Wolves team as well in order for us to win a title. And if it wasn't going to be Ant, it certainly isn't likely that it would be one of the picks we traded away.
I agree that Ant becoming a star would have been the key to this team's championship hopes even without the deal for Gobert. My main concern with the deal was the timing. The Wolves made the deal without knowing for sure whether Edwards would become a star and banking on him as a 20 year old becoming a star in a timeframe of the 30-year old Gobert. My preference would have been to preserve those future draft assets until we know whether Ant becomes the player who hope he'll be or, if taking a chance, putting those chips in on a younger player more likely to sync up with Ant's prime. Those future picks would have been trade assets next summer and the summer after every bit as much as they were this summer to use in a deal if Ant does, in fact, become the player we expect him to be. And if we're wrong about Ant or he suffers a serious injury, we'd have those picks to use for players - e.g., the Spurs Tim Duncan draft.
I'm not trying to revisit the Gobert trade. I'm just clarifying that my issue with the Gobert trade wasn't whether all those future picks should have been saved to draft players who would elevate the team like Gobert will. I just think we gave up too much and, more importantly, should have used those assets differently - possibly using one future pick and Beasley for Myles Turner while preserving Beverley, Kessler and our three other future 1st-round picks for potential future trades or as insurance for unforeseen issues that cause the team to falter like the Spurs did the season before they drafted Duncan.
I'm actually not pessimistic at all about the next few seasons because I do think Gobert brings a lot and I'm a believer in both Ant and McDaniels. However, I thought we gave up too much at the wrong time, so it's just not a deal I would have done.
And none of those trades or free agent acquisitions matter if the Bucks hadn't drafted Giannis.
The Bulls drafted MJ, Pippen and Grant; then built around them with trades, free agency and a key draft pick, Tony Kukoc. The Warriors drafted Curry, Thompson, Green, Poole and Looney and have from time to time picked up vets like Iggy and Durant in other ways.
The Wolves drafted Edwards, KAT and McDaniels. There are different ways to build around those three. The Wolves have rounded out their core DLO and Gobert. They traded a total of 6 first-round picks and 1 second-rounder, along with 4 rotation players and a prospect (Bolmaro), for those latter two. It might all lead to a championship. I agree with Draymond that it works if Edwards becomes a superstar. I think he will, but we can't know for sure. He'll have to become that star within the window of Gobert's 4 year deal. I can definitely see that happening. But then again, it might not.
Yes, the draft is super important for getting those first two or three key pieces and I would never argue otherwise. But after that, it becomes trade currency more than anything. I guess the point is that you don't need a constant influx of late 1st and 2nd rounders that end up becoming key rotational pieces every year once you have your core in place. You become a much more attractive free agency destination. And I think Mpls/St. Paul has more to offer than Milwaukee!
As for "in order for the trade to work Ant will need to become a star" narrative, well, that's the case even if we didn't trade for Gobert. How often have we said KAT isn't going to win us a title as the best player? Ant needed to become the best player in a non-Gobert Wolves team as well in order for us to win a title. And if it wasn't going to be Ant, it certainly isn't likely that it would be one of the picks we traded away.
I agree that Ant becoming a star would have been the key to this team's championship hopes even without the deal for Gobert. My main concern with the deal was the timing. The Wolves made the deal without knowing for sure whether Edwards would become a star and banking on him as a 20 year old becoming a star in a timeframe of the 30-year old Gobert. My preference would have been to preserve those future draft assets until we know whether Ant becomes the player who hope he'll be or, if taking a chance, putting those chips in on a younger player more likely to sync up with Ant's prime. Those future picks would have been trade assets next summer and the summer after every bit as much as they were this summer to use in a deal if Ant does, in fact, become the player we expect him to be. And if we're wrong about Ant or he suffers a serious injury, we'd have those picks to use for players - e.g., the Spurs Tim Duncan draft.
I'm not trying to revisit the Gobert trade. I'm just clarifying that my issue with the Gobert trade wasn't whether all those future picks should have been saved to draft players who would elevate the team like Gobert will. I just think we gave up too much and, more importantly, should have used those assets differently - possibly using one future pick and Beasley for Myles Turner while preserving Beverley, Kessler and our three other future 1st-round picks for potential future trades or as insurance for unforeseen issues that cause the team to falter like the Spurs did the season before they drafted Duncan.
I'm actually not pessimistic at all about the next few seasons because I do think Gobert brings a lot and I'm a believer in both Ant and McDaniels. However, I thought we gave up too much at the wrong time, so it's just not a deal I would have done.
This entire post sums up exactly how I feel. Too much at the wrong time. You didn't say it but I will. Lazy roster building. I like the example of Beasley and a first for turner. I'll add that if we made that move we probably could have recovered that first with some combination of bolmaro, vando and naz. Then all of a sudden we have turner, Kessler and Beverly next year instead of gobert. I think we're every bit as good next year, plus we keep ALL of our future firsts and wait on the really big move until next offseason. Our roster this year would be the following, which I almost like better because we have more depth at guard and we don't have to force a reserve to be our starting pg.
And none of those trades or free agent acquisitions matter if the Bucks hadn't drafted Giannis.
The Bulls drafted MJ, Pippen and Grant; then built around them with trades, free agency and a key draft pick, Tony Kukoc. The Warriors drafted Curry, Thompson, Green, Poole and Looney and have from time to time picked up vets like Iggy and Durant in other ways.
The Wolves drafted Edwards, KAT and McDaniels. There are different ways to build around those three. The Wolves have rounded out their core DLO and Gobert. They traded a total of 6 first-round picks and 1 second-rounder, along with 4 rotation players and a prospect (Bolmaro), for those latter two. It might all lead to a championship. I agree with Draymond that it works if Edwards becomes a superstar. I think he will, but we can't know for sure. He'll have to become that star within the window of Gobert's 4 year deal. I can definitely see that happening. But then again, it might not.
Yes, the draft is super important for getting those first two or three key pieces and I would never argue otherwise. But after that, it becomes trade currency more than anything. I guess the point is that you don't need a constant influx of late 1st and 2nd rounders that end up becoming key rotational pieces every year once you have your core in place. You become a much more attractive free agency destination. And I think Mpls/St. Paul has more to offer than Milwaukee!
As for "in order for the trade to work Ant will need to become a star" narrative, well, that's the case even if we didn't trade for Gobert. How often have we said KAT isn't going to win us a title as the best player? Ant needed to become the best player in a non-Gobert Wolves team as well in order for us to win a title. And if it wasn't going to be Ant, it certainly isn't likely that it would be one of the picks we traded away.
I agree that Ant becoming a star would have been the key to this team's championship hopes even without the deal for Gobert. My main concern with the deal was the timing. The Wolves made the deal without knowing for sure whether Edwards would become a star and banking on him as a 20 year old becoming a star in a timeframe of the 30-year old Gobert. My preference would have been to preserve those future draft assets until we know whether Ant becomes the player who hope he'll be or, if taking a chance, putting those chips in on a younger player more likely to sync up with Ant's prime. Those future picks would have been trade assets next summer and the summer after every bit as much as they were this summer to use in a deal if Ant does, in fact, become the player we expect him to be. And if we're wrong about Ant or he suffers a serious injury, we'd have those picks to use for players - e.g., the Spurs Tim Duncan draft.
I'm not trying to revisit the Gobert trade. I'm just clarifying that my issue with the Gobert trade wasn't whether all those future picks should have been saved to draft players who would elevate the team like Gobert will. I just think we gave up too much and, more importantly, should have used those assets differently - possibly using one future pick and Beasley for Myles Turner while preserving Beverley, Kessler and our three other future 1st-round picks for potential future trades or as insurance for unforeseen issues that cause the team to falter like the Spurs did the season before they drafted Duncan.
I'm actually not pessimistic at all about the next few seasons because I do think Gobert brings a lot and I'm a believer in both Ant and McDaniels. However, I thought we gave up too much at the wrong time, so it's just not a deal I would have done.
Thanks for clarifying your issue with the deal. Here are a couple things that came to mind as I read your post.
Giving up a first round pick for the hope that Myles Turner is magically gonna stay healthy AND you will be able to resign him or even want to resign him a year from now seems like a poor use of assets. Again it was a few weeks ago you wouldn't even do Beasley for Turner. I get the Gobert deal was a ton of assets. If someone wants to say we could have given up less assets for Capela or some other high level of player at rhe C position (that's Turner defensively IF healthy) sure but if we had to give up much more than Beasley for Turner I personally don't see that as worthwhile path compared to the Gobert deal. I'll also throw in that my friend that is a Kings fan says that Mike Brown loves Holmes and so Holmes (if anyone did want him) may not have been as gettable as we may have thought he was. In addition the guy that made sense to trade for him was Beasley and the Kings added Monk for a cheaper contract in FA and then traded for Hueter. That's a team that if Brown is the right guy as coach could be interesting this season in a good way especially with UTAH likely not being a playoff team.
Nobody has answered my question about a trade for a high level player like Gobert has been done recently without the team giving up that player who didn't get a high level starter or potential high level starter/prospect back. I think we may see another deal where a team gives up a bunch of future picks instead of a good player/prospect when Mitchell goes to the Knicks. Normally a team gets a McDaniels type guy but the Wolves said no so that's why the additional picks. It's basically instead of the Wolves giving up 2 first round picks for the Jrue Holiday type guy at some point they sorta spent it to keep McDaniels. The best "prospect" Memphis got back is probably Vanderbilt and even this board who loves the guy pretty much agrees he is probably a super valuable bench player/good spot starter. It's his first SL but his performance didn't exactly make me disappointed we included Bolmaro in the deal.
What Jon K reported was the Wolves kept saying to themselves why wait? It's a fair question to ask. If you really believe in Edwards why wait a year or 2 years or whatever to get a legit full team around him? Why not do it now? Ok fine you outlined that :) but let's look at the other side. On top of that adding Gobert might be what gets the most out of Towns (and maybe Russell) who is 26 now and why wait till he is nearing 30 to make a move? This trade is a classic quality over quantity trade and it kept the most of the pieces to be competitive now and in the future in place. Meanwhile the Wolves have already replaced via FA a lot of what they lost in the other players that were traded in the deal. In addition they were able to lock in Minott on a cheap, near no risk 4 year deal which also means they added AJ Lawson a somewhat intriguing young talent on a 2-way. A year from now they will have at least a couple possible open roster spots since Rivers and Forbes are on one year deals (could also let Prince go) and maybe they want a spot for Spagnolo or Knight or Lawson or another young player or whoever they take with the Knicks 2nd rounder etc. Roster spots have a lot of value and the Wolves will have roster flexibility next offseason if they want to. There are so many ways this team can add to their talent and I have quite a bit of confidence that Connelly is gonna be able to snag a worthwhile young player here and there because he has shown that he is willing and able to do that in Denver.
Would I have done this deal? No I absolutely would not have but there is a lot more value in doing it than it seems at first glance. Looking at what other teams that have won a championship recently and what they got/didn't get in the draft during many years makes me feel quite a bit better about this deal. It's absolutely risky and that's partly why I wouldn't have done it. I also didn't think Connelly should have done the Aaron Gordon trade and that's currently looking like a very solid worthwhile move that I would now consider a solid win for Denver. I didn't agree with the Jrue Holiday trade either. This is why I have respect for Cam specifically in that he is often opposite of me in that he is extremely aggressive in wanting to add talent NOW and willing to give up assets to do it. That isn't the only way he looks at things but it's what he leans towards. Of course even he wouldn't have done this deal but I like looking at things from more than one perspective which is partly why I come here. A number of people have said this trade has clear upside and also obvious downside. I wouldn't have had the guts to do this deal. Let's see how it plays out and again I do think Connelly is able to find ways to add to the roster that we have not being used to seeing with the Wolves for most of this franchise's existence. We only saw that was even possible in the last couple years under Rosas. Some of the risk is banking on Finch being the high level coach I think most people think he is and not just locally I think a lot of fans and people around the league think he is too.
Good analysis, Monster. I think you, Cam and I are on the same page in that we wouldn't have done the deal, but we see see its merit and acknowledge it could pay off in a big way for the Wolves. I'm glad you mentioned Jon K's report about the Wolves front office asking the question, why wait? As you noted, I've given my reasons why they should have waited. But even if the Wolves front office thought the case for making a big win-now move outweighed the case for waiting, the next question to ask was, how much should we be willing to give? I think their answer was, "as many unprotected 1st-round picks as they want and other young assets provided we don't give up KAT, Edwards or McDaniels. My answer would have been different.
An article on Draymond Green's response to KAT's latest proclamation that it's championship or bust for the Wolves. I have to confess that when I saw KAT's comment last week, I cringed. It was yet another classic cringeworthy comment by KAT. I appreciate the spirit of his comment, but it seemed so obviously out of place and sophomoric. I'm a big fan of KAT's game and I think his on-court immaturity, while troublesome, is over-emphasized by a number of fans. Having said that, he remains a treasure trove of cluelessness in his public comments. He never says anything terrible or reprehensible or anything of that nature. But he too often says stuff that's out of place or just embarrassingly contrived in his own mind.
Something I learned from this article that I didn't know is that Gobert apparently cried when he found out he didn't make the all-star team in 2019. And it seems that Green has repeatedly made fun of him for that. Talk about embarrassing. I thought we were getting a tough guy in Gobert. Hmm. Not that men shouldn't cry. But crying because he didn't make the all-star game? In fairness, Gobert said the tears stemmed from his mom's reaction to him not making the team. OK, guess that's better but.... None of this matters of course, Gobert just needs to swat away a bunch of those floaters from Wiggins, Curry and possibly Draymond Green.
As for KAT, I just wish he had a handler who filtered and controlled his public comments. And I hope KAT's constant whining at the officials doesn't bring Gobert to tears. :)
An article on Draymond Green's response to KAT's latest proclamation that it's championship or bust for the Wolves. I have to confess that when I saw KAT's comment last week, I cringed. It was yet another classic cringeworthy comment by KAT. I appreciate the spirit of his comment, but it seemed so obviously out of place and sophomoric. I'm a big fan of KAT's game and I think his on-court immaturity, while troublesome, is over-emphasized by a number of fans. Having said that, he remains a treasure trove of cluelessness in his public comments. He never says anything terrible or reprehensible or anything of that nature. But he too often says stuff that's out of place or just embarrassingly contrived in his own mind.
Something I learned from this article that I didn't know is that Gobert apparently cried when he found out he didn't make the all-star team in 2019. And it seems that Green has repeatedly made fun of him for that. Talk about embarrassing. I thought we were getting a tough guy in Gobert. Hmm. Not that men shouldn't cry. But crying because he didn't make the all-star game? In fairness, Gobert said the tears stemmed from his mom's reaction to him not making the team. OK, guess that's better but.... None of this matters of course, Gobert just needs to swat away a bunch of those floaters from Wiggins, Curry and possibly Draymond Green.
As for KAT, I just wish he had a handler who filtered and controlled his public comments. And I hope KAT's constant whining at the officials doesn't bring Gobert to tears. :)
Ha! Just classic KAT - setting himself up to be mocked by an alpha-dog like Green. KAT would have been much better off saying that our ultimate goal is a title and we have the talent to win it all, but we still have a lot of growing and work to do to get there and it will be a process.....or something like that.
I really, really, really, really hope Ant keeps getting better and matures as a leader of men. He is the key to winning a title eventually.
Draymond Green sure talks a lot for someone whose impact shrinks year after year. You'd think he was putting up Kevin Durant type numbers with the way he runs his mouth.
An article on Draymond Green's response to KAT's latest proclamation that it's championship or bust for the Wolves. I have to confess that when I saw KAT's comment last week, I cringed. It was yet another classic cringeworthy comment by KAT. I appreciate the spirit of his comment, but it seemed so obviously out of place and sophomoric. I'm a big fan of KAT's game and I think his on-court immaturity, while troublesome, is over-emphasized by a number of fans. Having said that, he remains a treasure trove of cluelessness in his public comments. He never says anything terrible or reprehensible or anything of that nature. But he too often says stuff that's out of place or just embarrassingly contrived in his own mind.
Something I learned from this article that I didn't know is that Gobert apparently cried when he found out he didn't make the all-star team in 2019. And it seems that Green has repeatedly made fun of him for that. Talk about embarrassing. I thought we were getting a tough guy in Gobert. Hmm. Not that men shouldn't cry. But crying because he didn't make the all-star game? In fairness, Gobert said the tears stemmed from his mom's reaction to him not making the team. OK, guess that's better but.... None of this matters of course, Gobert just needs to swat away a bunch of those floaters from Wiggins, Curry and possibly Draymond Green.
As for KAT, I just wish he had a handler who filtered and controlled his public comments. And I hope KAT's constant whining at the officials doesn't bring Gobert to tears. :)
Ha! Just classic KAT - setting himself up to be mocked by an alpha-dog like Green. KAT would have been much better off saying that our ultimate goal is a title and we have the talent to win it all, but we still have a lot of growing and work to do to get there and it will be a process.....or something like that.
I really, really, really, really hope Ant keeps getting better and matures as a leader of men. He is the key to winning a title eventually.
Tough crowd.
What cliche would have been acceptable for Towns to say?
Let's look back at Gobert not being selected to the All-star game that year. He was coming off a DPOY the previous season and was having the best season of his career and had not been an AS selection yet. He won DPOY that season too. He was probably thinking what else do I need to do?
An article on Draymond Green's response to KAT's latest proclamation that it's championship or bust for the Wolves. I have to confess that when I saw KAT's comment last week, I cringed. It was yet another classic cringeworthy comment by KAT. I appreciate the spirit of his comment, but it seemed so obviously out of place and sophomoric. I'm a big fan of KAT's game and I think his on-court immaturity, while troublesome, is over-emphasized by a number of fans. Having said that, he remains a treasure trove of cluelessness in his public comments. He never says anything terrible or reprehensible or anything of that nature. But he too often says stuff that's out of place or just embarrassingly contrived in his own mind.
Something I learned from this article that I didn't know is that Gobert apparently cried when he found out he didn't make the all-star team in 2019. And it seems that Green has repeatedly made fun of him for that. Talk about embarrassing. I thought we were getting a tough guy in Gobert. Hmm. Not that men shouldn't cry. But crying because he didn't make the all-star game? In fairness, Gobert said the tears stemmed from his mom's reaction to him not making the team. OK, guess that's better but.... None of this matters of course, Gobert just needs to swat away a bunch of those floaters from Wiggins, Curry and possibly Draymond Green.
As for KAT, I just wish he had a handler who filtered and controlled his public comments. And I hope KAT's constant whining at the officials doesn't bring Gobert to tears. :)
Ha! Just classic KAT - setting himself up to be mocked by an alpha-dog like Green. KAT would have been much better off saying that our ultimate goal is a title and we have the talent to win it all, but we still have a lot of growing and work to do to get there and it will be a process.....or something like that.
I really, really, really, really hope Ant keeps getting better and matures as a leader of men. He is the key to winning a title eventually.
Tough crowd.
What cliche would have been acceptable for Towns to say?
Let's look back at Gobert not being selected to the All-star game that year. He was coming off a DPOY the previous season and was having the best season of his career and had not been an AS selection yet. He won DPOY that season too. He was probably thinking what else do I need to do?
I already suggested what cliché he could have said instead (see underlined part). I don't think it's that big of a deal, but given KAT's track record, he sort of makes himself an easy target.
An article on Draymond Green's response to KAT's latest proclamation that it's championship or bust for the Wolves. I have to confess that when I saw KAT's comment last week, I cringed. It was yet another classic cringeworthy comment by KAT. I appreciate the spirit of his comment, but it seemed so obviously out of place and sophomoric. I'm a big fan of KAT's game and I think his on-court immaturity, while troublesome, is over-emphasized by a number of fans. Having said that, he remains a treasure trove of cluelessness in his public comments. He never says anything terrible or reprehensible or anything of that nature. But he too often says stuff that's out of place or just embarrassingly contrived in his own mind.
Something I learned from this article that I didn't know is that Gobert apparently cried when he found out he didn't make the all-star team in 2019. And it seems that Green has repeatedly made fun of him for that. Talk about embarrassing. I thought we were getting a tough guy in Gobert. Hmm. Not that men shouldn't cry. But crying because he didn't make the all-star game? In fairness, Gobert said the tears stemmed from his mom's reaction to him not making the team. OK, guess that's better but.... None of this matters of course, Gobert just needs to swat away a bunch of those floaters from Wiggins, Curry and possibly Draymond Green.
As for KAT, I just wish he had a handler who filtered and controlled his public comments. And I hope KAT's constant whining at the officials doesn't bring Gobert to tears. :)
Ha! Just classic KAT - setting himself up to be mocked by an alpha-dog like Green. KAT would have been much better off saying that our ultimate goal is a title and we have the talent to win it all, but we still have a lot of growing and work to do to get there and it will be a process.....or something like that.
I really, really, really, really hope Ant keeps getting better and matures as a leader of men. He is the key to winning a title eventually.
Tough crowd.
What cliche would have been acceptable for Towns to say?
Let's look back at Gobert not being selected to the All-star game that year. He was coming off a DPOY the previous season and was having the best season of his career and had not been an AS selection yet. He won DPOY that season too. He was probably thinking what else do I need to do?
I already suggested what cliché he could have said instead (see underlined part). I don't think it's that big of a deal, but given KAT's track record, he sort of makes himself an easy target.
Lol. Exactly, Q. It's not a big deal. KAT just makes himself such an easy mark. I honestly feel bad for him. He tries to find the right cliche, but always seems to land on the wrong one. :).
As for Draymond, I like Cam's response. I wish we had someone on the team who would say what Cam wrote.
