Presser at 10

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Lipoli390
Posts: 16251
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:00 am

Re: Presser at 10

Post by Lipoli390 »

Camden wrote:FNG, I have a genuine question for you. Why is that you routinely refer to a player's career stats rather than either the most recent season or the most recent seasons in cumulative form? Is what a guy produced five or six years ago (or more) even relevant anymore if there's been tangible improvement (or regression) in a number of statistical categories since then? I understand building a statistical case for or against a player and that requires data, but if the data is significantly outdated, then what is it worth?

For example, you like to use D'Angelo Russell's career numbers when it comes to three-point shooting (36.0 3P%) and his overall scoring efficiency (.529 TS%). Is that a true reflection of that player's ability in the present or could we deduce that there's been legitimate progression that renders those career marks a bit outdated and no longer meaningful?

2015-16: 35.1 3P%, .507 TS%
2016-17: 35.2 3P%, .518 TS%
2017-18: 32.4 3P%, .509 TS%

Total: 355-1032 3PA (34.4 3P%), .511 TS%

2018-19: 36.9 3P%, .533 TS%
2019-20: 36.7 3P%, .556 TS%
2020-21: 38.7 3P%, .555 TS%

Total: 512-1376 3PA (37.2 3P%), .544 TS%

I want to reiterate that this isn't about Russell and I used that as an example, but rather this is me wanting to understand the "how" and "why" you use stats the way you do. Maybe it's not even conscious on your part, but it's happened enough to where it's piqued my interest.


Cam - I won't answer for FNG on this. But here are my own general thoughts on using career stats to assess a player's present value. First, I think any assessment should be based on a combination of a player's career stats and his most recent. Second, I tend to give more weight to recent stats in younger players who have 2-5 years in the League because players typically improve their stats substantially in their 2nd and 3rd seasons with some additional significant improvement in their 4th. Finally, I look at the progression and give more weight to recent years if they reflect a steady improvement year to year, which tells me something about that player's trajectory.

Applying my analysis to DLO leads me to give significantly more weight to his recent shooting relative to his career stats. His shooting stats the past three seasons have been considerably better than in his first three seasons. Moreover, with the exception of his third season, his 3-point percentage has improved each season. Hence, like you, I see DLO primarily as the player reflected in his averages over the past three seasons. I haven't looked at his defensive stats, but I suspect his defensive rating hasn't followed the same upward trajectory as his shooting. I'm not sure about his on/off numbers either. But as a shooter, I see DLO as a 37-38% three-point shooter with a TS of around 54%. Those are very nice numbers for a PG, and at age 25, I still see room for further improvement.

The key for DLO, in my view, remains his defense and contribution to winning. Those are the DLO stats I'll be watching as this season progresses. As it stands, I'm pretty optimistic about Russell. I think he's got his head on straight, a healthy left knee and a bit of a chip on his shoulders. Same with KAT. If those two remain healthy, I expect both to have really good seasons. That's my view right now. But DLO has a lot to prove, as does the rest of this team. So we'll see.
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FNG
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Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:00 am

Re: Presser at 10

Post by FNG »

monsterpile wrote:
FNG wrote:
BloopOracle wrote:I follow Beverly on instagram, he has been in Italy for some kind of fashion week

I would like to take your attention to this picture of Leandro Bolmaro

https://twitter.com/Timberwolves/status/1442957666276478976?s=19

We will see how raw he is but I have to say I didn't expect him to have an NBA body already


This may be the most defining sentence I have ever read about the current state of the NBA. And this is PatBev- a guy many of us think represents more of an "old school" approach to the game. And yet, he chooses to skip (at least) the first day of practice so he can attend fashion week in Milan (full disclosure: I was there too. How else am I going to know what the current fashion trends are?). This brings back memories of Juancho missing the first days of training camp and then showing up out of shape so that he could finish his filming in the Adam Sandler movie.

I'm sure some of you will say this is not a big deal. But if you listened to the media day interviews, no teammate was mentioned more than PatBev. He has replaced Rubio as the veteran leader on this roster that the young players will look to for guidance as to how to conduct themselves. I would say he is not off to a very good start.

But at least he is going to look fashionable on the sidelines during the 25 games he misses this year. So, there's that...


Wait you were at fashion week and you haven't given us any info? Are Crocs still in? Which decade of clothes I have saved will I be able to wear this season? Which was your favorite designer and do you have their efficiency ratings?


I learned way to much to summarize here, but I'll leave you with two thoughts if you want to be ahead of the game in 2022:

Zubaz, and

Nehru jackets.

You're welcome.
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FNG
Posts: 5698
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:00 am

Re: Presser at 10

Post by FNG »

lipoli390 wrote:
Camden wrote:FNG, I have a genuine question for you. Why is that you routinely refer to a player's career stats rather than either the most recent season or the most recent seasons in cumulative form? Is what a guy produced five or six years ago (or more) even relevant anymore if there's been tangible improvement (or regression) in a number of statistical categories since then? I understand building a statistical case for or against a player and that requires data, but if the data is significantly outdated, then what is it worth?

For example, you like to use D'Angelo Russell's career numbers when it comes to three-point shooting (36.0 3P%) and his overall scoring efficiency (.529 TS%). Is that a true reflection of that player's ability in the present or could we deduce that there's been legitimate progression that renders those career marks a bit outdated and no longer meaningful?

2015-16: 35.1 3P%, .507 TS%
2016-17: 35.2 3P%, .518 TS%
2017-18: 32.4 3P%, .509 TS%

Total: 355-1032 3PA (34.4 3P%), .511 TS%

2018-19: 36.9 3P%, .533 TS%
2019-20: 36.7 3P%, .556 TS%
2020-21: 38.7 3P%, .555 TS%

Total: 512-1376 3PA (37.2 3P%), .544 TS%

I want to reiterate that this isn't about Russell and I used that as an example, but rather this is me wanting to understand the "how" and "why" you use stats the way you do. Maybe it's not even conscious on your part, but it's happened enough to where it's piqued my interest.


Cam - I won't answer for FNG on this. But here are my own general thoughts on using career stats to assess a player's present value. First, I think any assessment should be based on a combination of a player's career stats and his most recent. Second, I tend to give more weight to recent stats in younger players who have 2-5 years in the League because players typically improve their stats substantially in their 2nd and 3rd seasons with some additional significant improvement in their 4th. Finally, I look at the progression and give more weight to recent years if they reflect a steady improvement year to year, which tells me something about that player's trajectory.

Applying my analysis to DLO leads me to give significantly more weight to his recent shooting relative to his career stats. His shooting stats the past three seasons have been considerably better than in his first three seasons. Moreover, with the exception of his third season, his 3-point percentage has improved each season. Hence, like you, I see DLO primarily as the player reflected in his averages over the past three seasons. I haven't looked at his defensive stats, but I suspect his defensive rating hasn't following the same upward trajectory as his shooting. I'm not sure about his on/off numbers either. But as a shooter, I see DLO as a 37-38% three-point shooter with a TS of around 54%. Those are very nice numbers for a PG, and at age 25, I still see room for further improvement.

The key for DLO, in my view, remains his defense and contribution to winning. Those are the DLO stats I'll be watching as this season progresses. As it stands, I'm pretty optimistic about Russell. I think he's got his head on straight, a healthy left knee and a bit of a chip on his shoulders. Same with KAT. If those two remain healthy, I expect both to have really good seasons. That's my view right now. But DLO has a lot to prove, as does the rest of this team. So we'll see.


You did answer for me, Lip, and did just fine!

It's a fair question by Cam. I actually feel like I look at both the previous year stats and career stats, because I think both have some validity. I agree with both of you that DLO's improved 3-point shooting last year is encouraging, but despite the improvement you document on TS%, his average during the most recent three-year period still falls short of the league average for guards. And to Lip's point, there's no evidence of improvement in his defense...his very poor DRtg last season of 117 is the worst of his career, and 4 points worse than his career average. My point remains the same...this team isn't going anywhere if a guy consuming 1/4 of the payroll can't at least shoot as efficiently as an average guard, can't produce positive on/off numbers, has the worst Net Rating (ORtg -Drtg) of any max player in the league (both last season and on a career basis), and has defensive metrics that not only rank near the bottom of the league, but also appear to be getting worse if we just look at last season.

To me DLO's inability to produce deep analytic numbers that come anywhere close to justifying his salary is the biggest roster issue facing the Wolves...and similarly, the biggest opportunity for improvement and actually challenging for the playoffs. As I've said any times before, I like DLO as a person and also see him as a positive teammate. And I'm a hopeless Wolves rube always praying things might get better. So my focus is on DLO this season. He needs to be better...much better.
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