"COVID-19 vaccines appear to help prevent transmission between household contacts, with secondary attack rates dropping from 31% to 11% if the index patient was fully vaccinated"
I think of the vaccine as something we do to protect ourselves and our loved ones, but also the community at large. Reducing transmission of the virus is protective of all of us, and the more of us that get vaccinated, the better off we all are. A civic duty to get the vaccine.
This is commendable on some level, though I think it's worth mentioning that I am not responsible for your health nor are you responsible for mine. I certainly don't engage in various debates with people over their lifestyle choices that include consumption of unhealthy vices such as cigarettes, alcohol, highly processed foods, etc. I also don't find myself arguing with those who are obese -- over 40-percent (!) of Americans -- about why their individual decisions are harmful. And I certainly wouldn't support a federal mandate that Americans must be within a healthy blood pressure range or diagnosed with a normal body mass index to participate in everyday society, for example.
The natural response to this is going to be, "Well, none of that impacts other people's health!" But my problem with that rationale is that COVID-19, by all accounts, can be devastating to those that have weaker immune systems. That's why those that are elderly and those with underlying conditions -- such as high blood pressure, diabetes, obesity, etc. -- are at a higher risk than someone who has no medical issues. I could simply argue that perhaps if this country was healthier in general that this virus wouldn't have been as threatening to begin with and the spread of said virus would be drastically minimized. But rather than face those issues people would rather focus on individuals who have chosen to simply not receive an injection and introduce mandates to separate them from the workplace and other aspects of life.
Your logic here doesn't really make sense Cam. Sure, there are morbidly obese folks and others that simply haven't taken care of themselves. But based on 52 years of experience, I can tell you that the growing older part is hard to prevent! So explain to me how the elderly are at fault for their condition of being old!? Also, was it your plan to seal all these old folks off in a bubble and isolate them from the rest of society so that folks like you don't have to go through the inconvenience of a vaccine or wearing masks?
I'm not a big mandate guy myself, but this is truly different than other personal freedom issues and you have done a poor job arguing otherwise here.
Remember the good ole days when you could smoke in planes and drive drunk? Those crazy politicians are always taking away our freedoms to risk other peoples' health.
"COVID-19 vaccines appear to help prevent transmission between household contacts, with secondary attack rates dropping from 31% to 11% if the index patient was fully vaccinated"
I think of the vaccine as something we do to protect ourselves and our loved ones, but also the community at large. Reducing transmission of the virus is protective of all of us, and the more of us that get vaccinated, the better off we all are. A civic duty to get the vaccine.
This is commendable on some level, though I think it's worth mentioning that I am not responsible for your health nor are you responsible for mine. I certainly don't engage in various debates with people over their lifestyle choices that include consumption of unhealthy vices such as cigarettes, alcohol, highly processed foods, etc. I also don't find myself arguing with those who are obese -- over 40-percent (!) of Americans -- about why their individual decisions are harmful. And I certainly wouldn't support a federal mandate that Americans must be within a healthy blood pressure range or diagnosed with a normal body mass index to participate in everyday society, for example.
The natural response to this is going to be, "Well, none of that impacts other people's health!" But my problem with that rationale is that COVID-19, by all accounts, can be devastating to those that have weaker immune systems. That's why those that are elderly and those with underlying conditions -- such as high blood pressure, diabetes, obesity, etc. -- are at a higher risk than someone who has no medical issues. I could simply argue that perhaps if this country was healthier in general that this virus wouldn't have been as threatening to begin with and the spread of said virus would be drastically minimized. But rather than face those issues people would rather focus on individuals who have chosen to simply not receive an injection and introduce mandates to separate them from the workplace and other aspects of life.
Your logic here doesn't really make sense Cam. Sure, there are morbidly obese folks and others that simply haven't taken care of themselves. But based on 52 years of experience, I can tell you that the growing older part is hard to prevent! So explain to me how the elderly are at fault for their condition of being old!? Also, was it your plan to seal all these old folks off in a bubble and isolate them from the rest of society so that folks like you don't have to go through the inconvenience of a vaccine or wearing masks?
I'm not a big mandate guy myself, but this is truly different than other personal freedom issues and you have done a poor job arguing otherwise here.
I think you either misunderstood me, Q, or just didn't attempt to follow my thought process. The point was that we are not responsible for the health of one another. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and the choices that we make. That includes medical treatment.
As for the elderly, I simply highlighted them as well as those with underlying issues as the ones who are statistically most at risk when it comes to COVID because of their weaker immune systems. Elderly aside, who else has a weak immune system? The obese, the type 2 diabetic, those with high blood pressure, etc. and they have all made lifestyle choices that are detrimental to their health. My argument was that their weak immune systems have contributed to the death totals and transmission of COVID and it's not even being addressed. On the contrary, eat some more Krispy Kreme donuts! Indulge on more crippling fast food! The irony is actually amazing considering the government was bribing people to get a vaccine by actually making them less healthy individuals and potentially more at risk of death. Classic.
The sole focus seems to be on people that have chosen not to receive a vaccine while also ignoring the fact that millions likely have antibodies. Society is trending towards demonizing the unvaccinated and accepting mandates that should never have been introduced.
thedoper wrote:Remember the good ole days when you could smoke in planes and drive drunk? Those crazy politicians are always taking away our freedoms to risk other peoples' health.
The government does not care about you. The government is not there to help you. The government does not give a damn about public health.
thedoper wrote:Remember the good ole days when you could smoke in planes and drive drunk? Those crazy politicians are always taking away our freedoms to risk other peoples' health.
The government does not care about you. The government is not there to help you. The government does not give a damn about public health.
"COVID-19 vaccines appear to help prevent transmission between household contacts, with secondary attack rates dropping from 31% to 11% if the index patient was fully vaccinated"
I think of the vaccine as something we do to protect ourselves and our loved ones, but also the community at large. Reducing transmission of the virus is protective of all of us, and the more of us that get vaccinated, the better off we all are. A civic duty to get the vaccine.
This is commendable on some level, though I think it's worth mentioning that I am not responsible for your health nor are you responsible for mine. I certainly don't engage in various debates with people over their lifestyle choices that include consumption of unhealthy vices such as cigarettes, alcohol, highly processed foods, etc. I also don't find myself arguing with those who are obese -- over 40-percent (!) of Americans -- about why their individual decisions are harmful. And I certainly wouldn't support a federal mandate that Americans must be within a healthy blood pressure range or diagnosed with a normal body mass index to participate in everyday society, for example.
The natural response to this is going to be, "Well, none of that impacts other people's health!" But my problem with that rationale is that COVID-19, by all accounts, can be devastating to those that have weaker immune systems. That's why those that are elderly and those with underlying conditions -- such as high blood pressure, diabetes, obesity, etc. -- are at a higher risk than someone who has no medical issues. I could simply argue that perhaps if this country was healthier in general that this virus wouldn't have been as threatening to begin with and the spread of said virus would be drastically minimized. But rather than face those issues people would rather focus on individuals who have chosen to simply not receive an injection and introduce mandates to separate them from the workplace and other aspects of life.
Your logic here doesn't really make sense Cam. Sure, there are morbidly obese folks and others that simply haven't taken care of themselves. But based on 52 years of experience, I can tell you that the growing older part is hard to prevent! So explain to me how the elderly are at fault for their condition of being old!? Also, was it your plan to seal all these old folks off in a bubble and isolate them from the rest of society so that folks like you don't have to go through the inconvenience of a vaccine or wearing masks?
I'm not a big mandate guy myself, but this is truly different than other personal freedom issues and you have done a poor job arguing otherwise here.
I think you either misunderstood me, Q, or just didn't attempt to follow my thought process. The point was that we are not responsible for the health of one another. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and the choices that we make. That includes medical treatment.
As for the elderly, I simply highlighted them as well as those with underlying issues as the ones who are statistically most at risk when it comes to COVID because of their weaker immune systems. Elderly aside, who else has a weak immune system? The obese, the type 2 diabetic, those with high blood pressure, etc. and they have all made lifestyle choices that are detrimental to their health. My argument was that their weak immune systems have contributed to the death totals and transmission of COVID and it's not even being addressed. On the contrary, eat some more Krispy Kreme donuts! Indulge on more crippling fast food! The irony is actually amazing considering the government was bribing people to get a vaccine by actually making them less healthy individuals and potentially more at risk of death. Classic.
The sole focus seems to be on people that have chosen not to receive a vaccine while also ignoring the fact that millions likely have antibodies. Society is trending towards demonizing the unvaccinated and accepting mandates that should never have been introduced.
There is a number of people that have higher risk due to various medical conditions other than elderly and it was not due to their choice. One population to consider are those with intellectual disabilities. One study said they are nearly 6 times more likely to die from Covid than the rest of the population.
I do think your point about other health risks as a larger issue could be considered. One I think about from time to time is...there are laws against drunk driving. I don't drink but if people want to that's their decision. I personally wish there was stronger penalties for people who drink and drive as it can and does put others in danger.
When it comes to obesity and what people eat or making other healthy choices that is a complicated question that I think it's worth discussing. Also FWIW IMHO Krispy Kreme is vastly overrated. :)
All of those diseases you mentioned have a significant genetic component to them. Many people have weakened immune systems because of cancer, which clearly isn't a lifestyle choice. I eat a really healthy diet, run 3-5 miles a day and play tennis, but I still have high cholesterol because it runs in my family. Same with my wife who is just as active and careful with her diet as me, but she's borderline type 2 because it runs in her family.
Again, I don't wag my finger at those who've chosen not to get the Covid vaccine. I don't think those who make that choice should be demonized. But I do think we should all get the vaccine as part of our responsibility to others if not ourselves. That was the point Justice Harlan made in that landmark case upholding the constitutionality of vaccine mandates when he said, "real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others." I see Justice Harlan's point less as a justification for government mandates and more as a challenge to all of us to do our part voluntarily for our fellow citizens within the framework of a self-governing free society. With or without vaccine mandates, the United States remains more prosperous, tolerant and free than any other nation on earth.
"COVID-19 vaccines appear to help prevent transmission between household contacts, with secondary attack rates dropping from 31% to 11% if the index patient was fully vaccinated"
I think of the vaccine as something we do to protect ourselves and our loved ones, but also the community at large. Reducing transmission of the virus is protective of all of us, and the more of us that get vaccinated, the better off we all are. A civic duty to get the vaccine.
This is commendable on some level, though I think it's worth mentioning that I am not responsible for your health nor are you responsible for mine. I certainly don't engage in various debates with people over their lifestyle choices that include consumption of unhealthy vices such as cigarettes, alcohol, highly processed foods, etc. I also don't find myself arguing with those who are obese -- over 40-percent (!) of Americans -- about why their individual decisions are harmful. And I certainly wouldn't support a federal mandate that Americans must be within a healthy blood pressure range or diagnosed with a normal body mass index to participate in everyday society, for example.
The natural response to this is going to be, "Well, none of that impacts other people's health!" But my problem with that rationale is that COVID-19, by all accounts, can be devastating to those that have weaker immune systems. That's why those that are elderly and those with underlying conditions -- such as high blood pressure, diabetes, obesity, etc. -- are at a higher risk than someone who has no medical issues. I could simply argue that perhaps if this country was healthier in general that this virus wouldn't have been as threatening to begin with and the spread of said virus would be drastically minimized. But rather than face those issues people would rather focus on individuals who have chosen to simply not receive an injection and introduce mandates to separate them from the workplace and other aspects of life.
Your logic here doesn't really make sense Cam. Sure, there are morbidly obese folks and others that simply haven't taken care of themselves. But based on 52 years of experience, I can tell you that the growing older part is hard to prevent! So explain to me how the elderly are at fault for their condition of being old!? Also, was it your plan to seal all these old folks off in a bubble and isolate them from the rest of society so that folks like you don't have to go through the inconvenience of a vaccine or wearing masks?
I'm not a big mandate guy myself, but this is truly different than other personal freedom issues and you have done a poor job arguing otherwise here.
I think you either misunderstood me, Q, or just didn't attempt to follow my thought process. The point was that we are not responsible for the health of one another. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and the choices that we make. That includes medical treatment.
As for the elderly, I simply highlighted them as well as those with underlying issues as the ones who are statistically most at risk when it comes to COVID because of their weaker immune systems. Elderly aside, who else has a weak immune system? The obese, the type 2 diabetic, those with high blood pressure, etc. and they have all made lifestyle choices that are detrimental to their health. My argument was that their weak immune systems have contributed to the death totals and transmission of COVID and it's not even being addressed. On the contrary, eat some more Krispy Kreme donuts! Indulge on more crippling fast food! The irony is actually amazing considering the government was bribing people to get a vaccine by actually making them less healthy individuals and potentially more at risk of death. Classic.
The sole focus seems to be on people that have chosen not to receive a vaccine while also ignoring the fact that millions likely have antibodies. Society is trending towards demonizing the unvaccinated and accepting mandates that should never have been introduced.
I'm still not following your logic. Those folks that choose to neglect their own health are no more likely to pass on the illness to someone else than a perfectly fit and healthy person is. We're talking about transmission here, which has nothing to do with personal health. In fact, it's asymptomatic transmission that makes this thing so insidious. Young and healthy folks unwittingly spread it to others while they are perfectly fine.
And let's go back to the elderly, folks fighting cancer, and other genetically caused diseases that may be of no fault of their own. That is not some small, insignificant group, yet you seem to have no answer on how to reconcile your "I'm only responsible for myself" ethos with this large sub-set of the population that is very vulnerable.
All of those diseases you mentioned have a significant genetic component to them. Many people have weakened immune systems because of cancer, which clearly isn't a lifestyle choice. I eat a really healthy diet, run 3-5 miles a day and play tennis, but I still have high cholesterol because it runs in my family. Same with my wife who is just as active and careful with her diet as me, but she's borderline type 2 because it runs in her family.
Again, I don't wag my finger at those who've chosen not to get the Covid vaccine. I don't think those who make that choice should be demonized. But I do think we should all get the vaccine as part of our responsibility to others if not ourselves. That was the point Justice Harlan made in that landmark case upholding the constitutionality of vaccine mandates when he said, "real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others." I see Justice Harlan's point less as a justification for government mandates and more as a challenge to all of us to do our part voluntarily for our fellow citizens within the framework of a self-governing free society. With or without vaccine mandates, the United States remains more prosperous, tolerant and free than any other nation on earth.
Totally agree with this sentiment Lip. I think hard mandates by the government generally get holdouts to dig their heels in (like we have witnessed in this very thread). I agree that a better approach is for trusted friends/relatives/pastors, etc. to try to persuade folks to get the vaccine for the collective benefit and safety of their families and social circle, especially their elders.
Q, we're not even having the same conversation at this point. We're talking about two different things. I'm no longer interested in discussing this any further as there's miscommunication that doesn't appear fixable.
