FNG wrote:Politics led otherwise-smart liberals to the wrong conclusion 20 years ago, and are leading otherwise-smart conservatives to the wrong conclusion today. It's sad, and we need to be better than that.
FNG, conservatives aren't wrong here. And for the sake of accuracy, I'll reiterate that their positions are not anti-vaccine or anti-mask, but they are anti-mandate and in support of individual liberties. There are no conservatives banning or speaking against the right to wear masks or receive vaccines. Zero. Those are personal decisions that each American can make for themselves (and their children if they are parents). Furthermore, those are decisions that should not determine whether or not you receive employment or a proper education. Those are the battles that the conservative side is having. The right is fighting for the American people to continue with their lives and receive the medical treatment that they deem necessary for themselves. The left is fighting for... big pharma, media conglomerates, diminishing basic human rights of Americans, and mandatory medical treatment for a virus regardless of natural immunity. You're right. It is sad and everyone should be better than that.
There are only two sides to this issue. And OBVIOUSLY... one side is mean and dumb and the other side is entirely altruistic and smart and better.
mrhockey89 wrote:Here's my take on COVID and the vaccine.
-It was man-made in a lab in Wuhan. The statistical improbability that it wasn't has to be astronomical.
-Dr Fauci absolutely was pushing for gain of function research. He's suggested in the past 5-10 years that he believed the benefits outweigh the risk. Because of this, I think he does have something to hide, so in that sense I believe he's involved in a cover-up.
-The virus is very real and very transmissible without protection. It is very dangerous to the elderly and not at all dangerous to kids, so the whole protect our kids narrative is BS. There's been about 500 kids that have died from COVID in the US up to age 18. If we're worried about protecting them from this, then we really need to step up our protections for kids on flu and pnemonia. Kids do not transmit at a high rate.
-I believe there should be no mandate. Those who want to get the vaccine are protected from hospitalization/death. IF they get sick again, they're likely to gain further immunity, and not be hospitalized.
-I believe it is a crock of sh!t that they're not allowing people to "test out" of the vaccine by proving natural immunity. If you have natural immunity you are 13x less likely than if you're vaccinated of getting the Delta variant (per Israeli study).
With that said, I completely changed my life for the year of COVID before the vaccine came out to protect those I came in contact with from getting it, because they were high risk. Once everyone that wanted the vaccine had the opportunity, I felt comfortable resuming life as normal. I myself got vaccinated in March (earliest I could) for the protection of those around me.
Resume life as normal. Encourage the vaccine to those who don't have immunity, but let's stop scaring the country. There is zero reason someone who is vaccinated or has had COVID should be worried for themselves at this point, nor for anyone who makes the conscious choice to not get it.
Lastly, nobody should be getting extra unemployment/COVID checks going forward. People should get jobs if they need money, unless they have a medical reason they can't.
I agree with every point you made. I think you "get it".
thedoper wrote:You are not allowed to smoke inside in many public places because of the health risk to others. You are not allowed to drive at excessive speeds because of the risk to others. You need to use a hands free device while driving in many places in the world. These provisions in law are due to the cited irresponsibility of humans and the perceived danger of not limiting human behavior. The health and safety of your fellow humans has always been a consideration of the law. Likewise there have always been people who question the validity or necessity for these laws. This is no different.
So explain to me the the fires being set last summer by BLM. They didn't get prosecuted. Weren't they a risk to the safety of fellow humans? Why was that okay, but someone not taking a vaccination for a virus with a 99% survival rate is a problem?
Yeah I understand that the hypocrisy in the application of enforcement of laws seems to be a big problem for people in today's society. If your point is that government is a jumbled mess then I totally agree, I just dont personally think that the necessary conclusion from there is that public health measures are bad. I for one like that health inspectors are out there looking for rat turds in my soup as an example. But in terms of "enforcement" I would argue that even with mandates people are still very free to be unvaccinated if they chose so. There is no one being jailed or fined or forced to vaccinate. They are usually only limited to the number of people they can gather aound indoors as a higher risk carrier. If they by their own conclusions decide that they know better than the overwhelming majority of health professionals and scientist so be it. I would rather personally live in a society where we trust and value the expertise of health professionals and their intense training with only a moderate and appropriate amount of cynicism. This may really end up being harder if the proof becomes definitive that US money and Chinese mismanagement was the cause for all of this. None of this changes the effectiveness of vaccines.
The frustrating thing for me is just not knowing who to listen to or take advice from. Who can we really trust?
FNG wrote:Politics led otherwise-smart liberals to the wrong conclusion 20 years ago, and are leading otherwise-smart conservatives to the wrong conclusion today. It's sad, and we need to be better than that.
FNG, conservatives aren't wrong here. And for the sake of accuracy, I'll reiterate that their positions are not anti-vaccine or anti-mask, but they are anti-mandate and in support of individual liberties. There are no conservatives banning or speaking against the right to wear masks or receive vaccines. Zero. Those are personal decisions that each American can make for themselves (and their children if they are parents). Furthermore, those are decisions that should not determine whether or not you receive employment or a proper education. Those are the battles that the conservative side is having. The right is fighting for the American people to continue with their lives and receive the medical treatment that they deem necessary for themselves. The left is fighting for... big pharma, media conglomerates, diminishing basic human rights of Americans, and mandatory medical treatment for a virus regardless of natural immunity. You're right. It is sad and everyone should be better than that.
No, I get it, Cam...this is anti-mandate. But I'm curious about how you feel about other mandates the government has forced on us in the interest of keeping us safe. What are your thoughts about speed limits, stoplights and stop signs, smoking limitations, Patriot Act regulations, etc.? All of these things restrict our freedoms, but I would argue that it was only when we became so polarized as a country politically (perhaps the turn of this century) that we began to complain about common sense measures designed to keep us safe. The data tells us that these restrictions keep us safe (even though liberals whined about the Patriot Act and conservatives largely whine about mask/vax mandates), and polling tells us that who we voted for correlates strongly to whether we support a government regulation or not. I find that very disappointing, and very sad.
I guess I'm left wondering why you're comparing traffic laws to mandatory medical treatment. Does that not seem like an odd comparison to you?
FNG wrote:Politics led otherwise-smart liberals to the wrong conclusion 20 years ago, and are leading otherwise-smart conservatives to the wrong conclusion today. It's sad, and we need to be better than that.
FNG, conservatives aren't wrong here. And for the sake of accuracy, I'll reiterate that their positions are not anti-vaccine or anti-mask, but they are anti-mandate and in support of individual liberties. There are no conservatives banning or speaking against the right to wear masks or receive vaccines. Zero. Those are personal decisions that each American can make for themselves (and their children if they are parents). Furthermore, those are decisions that should not determine whether or not you receive employment or a proper education. Those are the battles that the conservative side is having. The right is fighting for the American people to continue with their lives and receive the medical treatment that they deem necessary for themselves. The left is fighting for... big pharma, media conglomerates, diminishing basic human rights of Americans, and mandatory medical treatment for a virus regardless of natural immunity. You're right. It is sad and everyone should be better than that.
Conservatives may not be directly trying to take away anyone's rights on this issue, but they will when it suits them or their religious beliefs so lets not act like their are angels. After-all we're not far removed from the right trying to stop 2 adults from getting married when they had ZERO effect on their lives. Point is, the right's record on human rights is very muddy these days and to cover both sides, the far left tries to infringe on rights like free speech.
The left has been going at big pharma, big business, etc for years now so lets not go there with that man. The left wants the ability to negotiate drug prices while the right is against it. So who isn't supporting big pharma? Both sides have corruption in certain areas. They have too much money and power, which I have to point out in large part is due to the rights support of big money in politics and resistance to get rid of it (Citizens United as one example).
Lets forget about the covid vaccine for a minute. Are there any vaccine mandates you support? Specifically MMR and other vaccines for the most deadly diseases that I'm sure nearly all of us have been vaccinated for.
FNG wrote:Politics led otherwise-smart liberals to the wrong conclusion 20 years ago, and are leading otherwise-smart conservatives to the wrong conclusion today. It's sad, and we need to be better than that.
FNG, conservatives aren't wrong here. And for the sake of accuracy, I'll reiterate that their positions are not anti-vaccine or anti-mask, but they are anti-mandate and in support of individual liberties. There are no conservatives banning or speaking against the right to wear masks or receive vaccines. Zero. Those are personal decisions that each American can make for themselves (and their children if they are parents). Furthermore, those are decisions that should not determine whether or not you receive employment or a proper education. Those are the battles that the conservative side is having. The right is fighting for the American people to continue with their lives and receive the medical treatment that they deem necessary for themselves. The left is fighting for... big pharma, media conglomerates, diminishing basic human rights of Americans, and mandatory medical treatment for a virus regardless of natural immunity. You're right. It is sad and everyone should be better than that.
No, I get it, Cam...this is anti-mandate. But I'm curious about how you feel about other mandates the government has forced on us in the interest of keeping us safe. What are your thoughts about speed limits, stoplights and stop signs, smoking limitations, Patriot Act regulations, etc.? All of these things restrict our freedoms, but I would argue that it was only when we became so polarized as a country politically (perhaps the turn of this century) that we began to complain about common sense measures designed to keep us safe. The data tells us that these restrictions keep us safe (even though liberals whined about the Patriot Act and conservatives largely whine about mask/vax mandates), and polling tells us that who we voted for correlates strongly to whether we support a government regulation or not. I find that very disappointing, and very sad.
I guess I'm left wondering why you're comparing traffic laws to mandatory medical treatment. Does that not seem like an odd comparison to you?
Not at all. Aren't they both government-sponsored freedom-reducing measures designed to keep us safe, even though a portion of the population thinks we would be just fine without them...just like the Patriot Act and smoking restrictions? There needs to be a cost/benefit analysis every time a regulation is put into place, and as irritating as some of the mandates I cite are to some of us (as it appears vax and mask mandates are to you), I believe a majority of us believe that ending this pandemic is much more important than the perceived loss of freedom some feel from the new mandates (or restrictions).
CoolBreeze44 wrote:
The frustrating thing for me is just not knowing who to listen to or take advice from. Who can we really trust?
Ignore the media and politicians. Listen to the trusted scientific and medical community with proven history. The doctors and nurses who were working 60, 80, 100 hours a week trying to save lives. I still don't understand how politicians made Dr Fauci so polarizing. He has worked for SIX Presidents starting with Reagan lol.
Most of the claims I've seen coming from covid vaccine opposition (the ones that actively spread misinformation, false claims, conspiracies, etc) try to point to some "expert" that when you do a quick google search of them, find out they are not an expert at all and have little to no fact behind them.
TheGrey08 wrote:Conservatives may not be directly trying to take away anyone's rights on this issue, but they will when it suits them or their religious beliefs so lets not act like their are angels. After-all we're not far removed from the right trying to stop 2 adults from getting married when they had ZERO effect on their lives. Point is, the right's record on human rights is very muddy these days and to cover both sides, the far left tries to infringe on rights like free speech.
The left has been going at big pharma, big business, etc for years now so lets not go there with that man. The left wants the ability to negotiate drug prices while the right is against it. So who isn't supporting big pharma? Both sides have corruption in certain areas. They have too much money and power, which I have to point out in large part is due to the rights support of big money in politics and resistance to get rid of it (Citizens United as one example).
Lets forget about the covid vaccine for a minute. Are there any vaccine mandates you support? Specifically MMR and other vaccines for the most deadly diseases that I'm sure nearly all of us have been vaccinated for.
Much of what you said here just isn't true and is instead regurgitated nonsense from mainstream media.
TheGrey08 wrote:Conservatives may not be directly trying to take away anyone's rights on this issue, but they will when it suits them or their religious beliefs so lets not act like they are angels. After-all we're not far removed from the right trying to stop 2 adults from getting married when they had ZERO effect on their lives. Point is, the right's record on human rights is very muddy these days and to cover both sides, the far left tries to infringe on rights like free speech.
The left has been going at big pharma, big business, etc for years now so lets not go there with that man. The left wants the ability to negotiate drug prices while the right is against it. So who isn't supporting big pharma? Both sides have corruption in certain areas. They have too much money and power, which I have to point out in large part is due to the rights support of big money in politics and resistance to get rid of it (Citizens United as one example).
Lets forget about the covid vaccine for a minute. Are there any vaccine mandates you support? Specifically MMR and other vaccines for the most deadly diseases that I'm sure nearly all of us have been vaccinated for.
Much of what you said here just isn't true and is instead regurgitated nonsense from mainstream media.
Except I've literally seen them try to pass laws or go against laws on these things lol. If you have specifics, I'm all ears.
I'm also still curious if you are in support of any of the previous vaccine mandates.
thedoper wrote:You are not allowed to smoke inside in many public places because of the health risk to others. You are not allowed to drive at excessive speeds because of the risk to others. You need to use a hands free device while driving in many places in the world. These provisions in law are due to the cited irresponsibility of humans and the perceived danger of not limiting human behavior. The health and safety of your fellow humans has always been a consideration of the law. Likewise there have always been people who question the validity or necessity for these laws. This is no different.
So explain to me the the fires being set last summer by BLM. They didn't get prosecuted. Weren't they a risk to the safety of fellow humans? Why was that okay, but someone not taking a vaccination for a virus with a 99% survival rate is a problem?
Yeah I understand that the hypocrisy in the application of enforcement of laws seems to be a big problem for people in today's society. If your point is that government is a jumbled mess then I totally agree, I just dont personally think that the necessary conclusion from there is that public health measures are bad. I for one like that health inspectors are out there looking for rat turds in my soup as an example. But in terms of "enforcement" I would argue that even with mandates people are still very free to be unvaccinated if they chose so. There is no one being jailed or fined or forced to vaccinate. They are usually only limited to the number of people they can gather aound indoors as a higher risk carrier. If they by their own conclusions decide that they know better than the overwhelming majority of health professionals and scientist so be it. I would rather personally live in a society where we trust and value the expertise of health professionals and their intense training with only a moderate and appropriate amount of cynicism. This may really end up being harder if the proof becomes definitive that US money and Chinese mismanagement was the cause for all of this. None of this changes the effectiveness of vaccines.
The frustrating thing for me is just not knowing who to listen to or take advice from. Who can we really trust?
For me too. I am really saddened of the deterioration of trust in our society. I doubt the backlash against the polio vaccine was this severe because people trusted (with good reason) their medical professionals and didn't have the access to outlier medical opinions via the internet. Now our whole society is information overload and our negative traits are constantly being highlighted on whatever side of the political spectrum someone falls. I personally hugely respect and trust the consensus of medical professionals and researchers because I know the amount of work they engage in to get to where they are. On the other side, I can understand the mistrust with the correctly noted influence of the Pharmaceutical industry, the interference of government in health care, and the malpractice of some medical professionals, and also the prevelance of bad health data and even worse independent public health interpretations on the internet. Our world is a mess and Covid is highlighting that.
