OT - Making Sense of Tragedy

[thedoper]

Thanks for sharing your ideas for change Doper. I certainly think education is where a huge opportunity for improvement exists, Your university idea is an explicit use of quotas, which is unconstitutional at the moment, so there would need to be major legislation enacted to make that happen. Regardless, the bigger problem is K-12 which I think you would agree. I don't necessarily agree that funding is the major root cause, but I can't argue that - all else being equal - more money is better than less money.

I'm a little concerned that your proposals are 100% top-down, which perhaps you believe is the only way out of this mess. That's fair. I do find it curious that you have stayed completely silent on the role of public unions, which work 100% on behalf of the employee they represent (which includes the abusive cop or the derelict school teacher) versus the people they actually serve. To me, reform of the relationship between state/local goverments and unions is a key plank in any hope to reverse the cycle of dysfunction in our inner cities.

Racial equality is one of the few areas where I feel the public needs top down legislation. The evidence bears the reality that our society is unable to practice equality without it. Independently there was zero progress in the education of minorities without top-down legislation. Without it there would still be legal segregation in the USA.

Unions will complicate any influx of funds into the K-12 system and is a problem unto itself. That is more of a general education education issue affecting all students rather that dealing with the standalone issue educational outcomes for people of color.

As for university quotas, really hard to define what is legal as court decisions have gone back and forth on this one for years. I hope the court lands on what is ethically the right thing to do in this matter, but the current judiciary may make it challenging to make that a reality. I see two ways to achieve it, you either dedicate new money to new seats, having no cap on certain qualifier of students. Or you mandate a certain serving of various seats for select electoral regions based on lack of representation in your institution. For instance the U could have x seats from historically black neighborhoods and/or schools which are underrepresented.

[TheGrey08]

Well I'm definitely late to the party, but want to say there are a lot of great posts in this thread already and that includes posts with points I don't totally agree on, but most have good insight. It took me a while to read through & process the thread, but I'm gonna start with policing. I'll preface everything by saying my grandfather was a police for 22 years and my mom worked at a county jail for several. I support good cops who do their jobs and do them very well

Policing
While police prejudice & brutality affects people of all races, it absolutely disproportionately affects the black community, especially men. At this point I see the police almost as a pseudo race themselves in that they are a brotherhood that vastly protects itself, and it has racial prejudice against black people. There's really no other way to look at it anymore when you look at statistics, but you have to be careful when doing so because no stat is perfect and they are easily cherry picked.

For EX: One person will mention that Black people are about 13% of our population, but were ~24% of all police shootings/killings in 2019 with men being the vast majority of that 24% and are only ~6% of the population. Another person will state how the black community is a higher % of violent encounters with police. The first ignores the second and the second ignores how the black community is absolutely watched/targeted/harassed more than other races by the police (if you don't believe that to be the case, start talking and listening to more black dudes with no criminal record what so ever and how they are treated by cops). I just think that's a good example of how it's important to get the full picture and not look at cherry picked statistics.

While I believe racist/bad cops are a minority, the fact is if a cop witnesses one of their own clearly crossing a line and they stay silent, they are de-facto failing to do their job and are also being a bad cop. It gets tough when taking into account rookie cops who can't even be on their own yet (2 of the 4 cops fired in MPLS were on the job for mere days and each of their FTOs had long history of abuse complaints) and also that whole "good ol boys" club where speaking out against another cop can cause a lot of problems for you, which is a big problem. They need to be put on a pedestal when they DO speak up.

A few bad apples? Well... as someone else mentioned, we don't let "bad apples" fly our planes.


Some have made it a point to ask about solutions, so here we go.

Police reform
1) Far more training on par with other countries. not weeks or months, but years of education & training.
2) Extensive study/training in psychology, how the mind works, conflict resolution, counseling, etc.
3) Extensive non lethal force training and emphasis on using it so their gun is the LAST resort.
4) Monthly if not weekly 1 on 1 sessions with a law enforcement therapist/psychologist. (men don't talk enough about their feelings/what's going through their mind quite frankly)
5) Somewhere between 50-75% of officers working in a city/district should actually live there. (probably within the county for some smaller areas)
6) An officer who witnesses a fellow officer blatantly crossing the line/breaking the law need to be held accountable if they don't step in or report it.
7) An officer found guilty of breaking the law should face double the punishment of a civilian (lets hold them to a HIGHER standard because it is their job after all).

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Good stuff Grey, hard to disagree with most of what you suggest. Of course, I know literally nothing about policing!

I see that it's very possible the Minneapolis City Council may disband the police department. Now of course someone like Fox News is going to pick up that headline and say "Gasp! They are defunding the police! The horror!!!".

I'm going to hold out judgment. If the goal is to essentially hit the re-set button by disbanding the existing police leadership and union and replacing it with fresh thinking, let's give it a chance and see how it works. May be it blows up in their face; may be it really improves things. What bugs me is the bad faith reactionary headlines we so often see from the cliched "other side" when these things come up. I realize the left's media mouthpieces are no less hyperbolic or hysterical.

Rather than be seduced by the hysteria on either side, I hope to watch and observe. What comes out of all of this? What works? What doesn't? Are there things that work that create other unintended consequences? Or may be not?

[TheGrey08]

Q, yeah my mom was telling me about that a little bit ago and I was like uhh like disband completely??? and she said it sounds like their only means of clearing the board and starting fresh, including dumping the union dickhead is this route, but that they would likely disband & replace at the same time.

I'm really curious to see how this plays out though, and I hope they take some time and get it right.

[TheGrey08]

They went after Brees hard because he is yet another white person setting the rules of engagement for taking on systemic racism and police brutality with his take on kneeling during the national anthem not being an acceptable form of protest. You can't knee during the national anthem to raise awareness. In many states right now you can't peacefully protest without getting tear gassed and shot with rubber bullets. Social media is full of police abuse of power in these situations escalating them and being the aggressors. My brain can't even compute the level of stupidity combined with arrogance we are seeing from cops right now who are under a microscope and still brutalizing unarmed civilians in broad daylight. That's a level of unchecked power that just doesn't give a fuck because of the limited if not zero repercussions they are gonna see which is why we are in this mess in the first place. Actions have consequences in this world unless you are a cop right now where you have a significantly high chance of the system ruling in your favor enabling you to pretty much do whatever the fuck you want. We all seem to agree rioting and looting is not the answer either.

So what is acceptable to do that doesn't lead to you getting criticized and your voice diminished (rioting, looting and kneeling during the national anthem) or getting brutalized by the police right now (peaceful protesting)? There hasn't been an "acceptable" way to challenge the system that doesn't result in one of those two outcomes right now so they are getting backed into a corner and given no options. The last thing that should be happening is white millionaires and media publicly setting the rules of engagement for what is acceptable while the cops are on the other side of that bridge brutalizing the people doing it the "right" way and facing zero consequences for doing so. Law and Order is following their own set of rules right now while we pay for them to do so.

Well said Khans. You went right to the heart of it and what it's truly about. Brees was just another person parroting the narrative of people trying to make kneeling during the anthem a disrespect to the military when that was never what it was about. In fact, they started kneeling as to NOT disrespect the military and it was suggested by someone in the military.

When has kneeling EVER been considered a negative or disrespectful act before the anthem kneeling happened? I honestly cannot think of any other example where kneeling was seeing as anything but respectful. Can anyone think of a single example prior to this?

[TheGrey08]

While there have certainly been bad actors, I'd be careful with over-generalizing. I've seen videos of cops showing grace and appreciation for peaceful protesters, communicating with them in very friendly and kind ways. I have also seen others over-react and get disciplined for it, so there have been consequences. We also only see things through the lens of the video that is posted. Was there something that precipitated the incident that is unseen or unheard? Was the person that posted the video seeking out abusive cops while ignoring abusive protesters?

Having said that, I do think reform is needed in many police departments. One of the first places to start is the union and labor protections that were agreed to with local governments. If we want to talk about systemic problems in our inner cities, public unions has to be part of the conversation along with criminal justice reforms, training, etc.

The thing is, cops that actually do their job correctly and don't exhibit excessive force while also speaking up/stepping in when a fellow officer crosses the line are not at issue. I love seeing heartfelt moments between officer & community. I truly do, but it doesn't negate the truly disgusting behavior that even 1 cop exhibits if they are allowed to continue. Every single cop that clearly crosses the line needs to be singled out and reprimanded/fired/charged depending on the circumstances as does any cop who stood by letting it happen. I know it's a tough job, but it has to be zero tolerance. It just has to.

I've seen numerous video evidence just from the past week or so of cops grossly overstepping and even assaulting civilians for no reason that have yet to be fired/charged/reprimanded. Numerous incidents where crowds were being peaceful, often for long periods of time before police just randomly became aggressive towards them (they've maimed people including an award winning photographer who lost her eye). Media crews including major network crews have been shot at as well. 2 squads in NYC literally hit a crowd of protesters that were behind a police barrier. That's assault with a deadly weapon and what has happened to them? nothing and Blasio defended them when THEY took the aggressive action in the first place.

They've taken action on I think 6 cops that I know of out of dozens caught on video. 2 cops in ATL who tazed a couple in a car, 2 in BUF for shoving a 75 year old man (who hit the back of his head and was bleeding out his ear) and I think there were 2 others that I'm forgetting details on. While I applaud these departments for taking action, that's still only 3 out of dozens of blatant excessive force incidents.

We have to demand more. This time it finally feels different and I truly believe real legit reform can be had, but people have to act. They have to do their jobs and do what is right. We so badly need vast change and this would be a big place to start.

[BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520]]

They went after Brees hard because he is yet another white person setting the rules of engagement for taking on systemic racism and police brutality with his take on kneeling during the national anthem not being an acceptable form of protest. You can't knee during the national anthem to raise awareness. In many states right now you can't peacefully protest without getting tear gassed and shot with rubber bullets. Social media is full of police abuse of power in these situations escalating them and being the aggressors. My brain can't even compute the level of stupidity combined with arrogance we are seeing from cops right now who are under a microscope and still brutalizing unarmed civilians in broad daylight. That's a level of unchecked power that just doesn't give a fuck because of the limited if not zero repercussions they are gonna see which is why we are in this mess in the first place. Actions have consequences in this world unless you are a cop right now where you have a significantly high chance of the system ruling in your favor enabling you to pretty much do whatever the fuck you want. We all seem to agree rioting and looting is not the answer either.

So what is acceptable to do that doesn't lead to you getting criticized and your voice diminished (rioting, looting and kneeling during the national anthem) or getting brutalized by the police right now (peaceful protesting)? There hasn't been an "acceptable" way to challenge the system that doesn't result in one of those two outcomes right now so they are getting backed into a corner and given no options. The last thing that should be happening is white millionaires and media publicly setting the rules of engagement for what is acceptable while the cops are on the other side of that bridge brutalizing the people doing it the "right" way and facing zero consequences for doing so. Law and Order is following their own set of rules right now while we pay for them to do so.

Well said Khans. You went right to the heart of it and what it's truly about. Brees was just another person parroting the narrative of people trying to make kneeling during the anthem a disrespect to the military when that was never what it was about. In fact, they started kneeling as to NOT disrespect the military and it was suggested by someone in the military.

When has kneeling EVER been considered a negative or disrespectful act before the anthem kneeling happened? I honestly cannot think of any other example where kneeling was seeing as anything but respectful. Can anyone think of a single example prior to this?

If you want a good speech about this, listen to Beto O'Rourke's speech on this. I know the conservatives won't like it but I think most of us would agree with him.

[TheGrey08]

If you want a good speech about this, listen to Beto O'Rourke's speech on this. I know the conservatives won't like it but I think most of us would agree with him.

The one from 2018 that went viral? That was a damn good speech.

[mjs34]

While there have certainly been bad actors, I'd be careful with over-generalizing. I've seen videos of cops showing grace and appreciation for peaceful protesters, communicating with them in very friendly and kind ways. I have also seen others over-react and get disciplined for it, so there have been consequences. We also only see things through the lens of the video that is posted. Was there something that precipitated the incident that is unseen or unheard? Was the person that posted the video seeking out abusive cops while ignoring abusive protesters?

Having said that, I do think reform is needed in many police departments. One of the first places to start is the union and labor protections that were agreed to with local governments. If we want to talk about systemic problems in our inner cities, public unions has to be part of the conversation along with criminal justice reforms, training, etc.

The thing is, cops that actually do their job correctly and don't exhibit excessive force while also speaking up/stepping in when a fellow officer crosses the line are not at issue. I love seeing heartfelt moments between officer & community. I truly do, but it doesn't negate the truly disgusting behavior that even 1 cop exhibits if they are allowed to continue. Every single cop that clearly crosses the line needs to be singled out and reprimanded/fired/charged depending on the circumstances as does any cop who stood by letting it happen. I know it's a tough job, but it has to be zero tolerance. It just has to.

I've seen numerous video evidence just from the past week or so of cops grossly overstepping and even assaulting civilians for no reason that have yet to be fired/charged/reprimanded. Numerous incidents where crowds were being peaceful, often for long periods of time before police just randomly became aggressive towards them (they've maimed people including an award winning photographer who lost her eye). Media crews including major network crews have been shot at as well. 2 squads in NYC literally hit a crowd of protesters that were behind a police barrier. That's assault with a deadly weapon and what has happened to them? nothing and Blasio defended them when THEY took the aggressive action in the first place.

They've taken action on I think 6 cops that I know of out of dozens caught on video. 2 cops in ATL who tazed a couple in a car, 2 in BUF for shoving a 75 year old man (who hit the back of his head and was bleeding out his ear) and I think there were 2 others that I'm forgetting details on. While I applaud these departments for taking action, that's still only 3 out of dozens of blatant excessive force incidents.

We have to demand more. This time it finally feels different and I truly believe real legit reform can be had, but people have to act. They have to do their jobs and do what is right. We so badly need vast change and this would be a big place to start.

WOW! Apparently you missed what transpired to cause that situation. The "peaceful protesters" pulled the barricade in front of the police cruiser, blocking their path out. The second cruiser pushed through the crowd (at the speed on the steamroller in Austin Powers " NOOOOOO!") to clear the barrier allowing both squads to exit the area safely.

I am guessing none of you saw the video of the aussie film crew in Mpls/SP at the "peaceful protest" where one protester stabbed another. After being ridiculed by the film crew for waiting two blocks down the road (waiting to assemble enough help) the police moved in to arrest the stabber, render help to the victim, all the while having bricks and stones thrown at them. One "peaceful protester" threw a rock about 8 inches in diameter at the police squad as they were leaving putting a huge dent in the drivers door. A foot and a half higher and it may killed the officer.

If these protests are so peaceful, why does the Wash DC Mayor need five body guards?

If the city council wants to disband the MPD and send social workers and medics on police calls (yes they really said this), I suggest sending the council members on a few calls by themselves on a trial basis. Maybe they can calm down the situation by singing Amazing Grace again.

[Coolbreeze44]

They went after Brees hard because he is yet another white person setting the rules of engagement for taking on systemic racism and police brutality with his take on kneeling during the national anthem not being an acceptable form of protest. You can't knee during the national anthem to raise awareness. In many states right now you can't peacefully protest without getting tear gassed and shot with rubber bullets. Social media is full of police abuse of power in these situations escalating them and being the aggressors. My brain can't even compute the level of stupidity combined with arrogance we are seeing from cops right now who are under a microscope and still brutalizing unarmed civilians in broad daylight. That's a level of unchecked power that just doesn't give a fuck because of the limited if not zero repercussions they are gonna see which is why we are in this mess in the first place. Actions have consequences in this world unless you are a cop right now where you have a significantly high chance of the system ruling in your favor enabling you to pretty much do whatever the fuck you want. We all seem to agree rioting and looting is not the answer either.

So what is acceptable to do that doesn't lead to you getting criticized and your voice diminished (rioting, looting and kneeling during the national anthem) or getting brutalized by the police right now (peaceful protesting)? There hasn't been an "acceptable" way to challenge the system that doesn't result in one of those two outcomes right now so they are getting backed into a corner and given no options. The last thing that should be happening is white millionaires and media publicly setting the rules of engagement for what is acceptable while the cops are on the other side of that bridge brutalizing the people doing it the "right" way and facing zero consequences for doing so. Law and Order is following their own set of rules right now while we pay for them to do so.

Well said Khans. You went right to the heart of it and what it's truly about. Brees was just another person parroting the narrative of people trying to make kneeling during the anthem a disrespect to the military when that was never what it was about. In fact, they started kneeling as to NOT disrespect the military and it was suggested by someone in the military.

When has kneeling EVER been considered a negative or disrespectful act before the anthem kneeling happened? I honestly cannot think of any other example where kneeling was seeing as anything but respectful. CWhen has kneeling EVER been considered a negative or disrespectful act before the anthem kneeling happened? I honestly cannot think of any other example where kneeling was seeing as anything but respectful. Can anyone think of a single example prior to this?

Isn't this said every time before the national anthem is played? "Ladies and gentleman, please rise as (so and so) performs our star spangled banner". I don't know how the act of rising to our feet began, but we've been asked to do it for a century.