Article: Should the Wolves Try to Extend Gorgui Dieng

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Once again... I'm even more disappointed in the Wolves last season. Why did I follow that team for so long?

Dieng is a poor man's Horford/Favors... and then there's Wiggins, Towns, Rubio and LaVine. 4 of those guys are even good to great to OMG defensively!

And the team still lost 53 games and finished 28th on defense. What a disappointment.

[Note: I don't mind Dieng. He's fine as a 4th or 5th option. He's improved... that's huge. And the cap situation is fine for now. I don't know how that translates down the line though. We know Towns and Dieng can lock down the frontcourt on a 53-loss team. And probably even a .500 type team. The question is whether he's good enough to be a starting PF worth $50+M on a 50+ win team? The difference can be huge. I don't know the answer to that. But I do know I give a lot more weight when comparing stats to guys on winning teams vs. guys on 66- and 53-loss teams. Damn you Shareef Abdur Rahim... you did this to me!]

Heh, indeed. We all have our favorites, but you'd think we came off a 55-win season reading some of our commentary on our players. If these guys are all as great as we think they are, then it appears that the sum of the parts is about 2X better than the whole. I guess we can just blame poor Sam Mitchell for all that is wrong! How could he not take this collection of all-stars and get them to at least the 4th seed!?

Here is the reality from my perspective. If I look at ALL of last season, not just the final 30-some games, but all of it, we had three plus players: Rubio, KG, and Towns; three neutral-ish players: Wiggins, Miller, Dieng, and Prince; and a bunch of negatives: Everyone else.

I think the hope rests in that at least one plus player just keeps getting better (Towns), two of the neutral guys flipped to positives in the second half and hopefully stay there (Wiggins and Dieng), and there is hope in at least three of the negatives moving to neutral or better in the near future (LaVine, Bjelica, and Jones).

And yes, a better coach will help too.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Once again... I'm even more disappointed in the Wolves last season. Why did I follow that team for so long?

Dieng is a poor man's Horford/Favors... and then there's Wiggins, Towns, Rubio and LaVine. 4 of those guys are even good to great to OMG defensively!

And the team still lost 53 games and finished 28th on defense. What a disappointment.

[Note: I don't mind Dieng. He's fine as a 4th or 5th option. He's improved... that's huge. And the cap situation is fine for now. I don't know how that translates down the line though. We know Towns and Dieng can lock down the frontcourt on a 53-loss team. And probably even a .500 type team. The question is whether he's good enough to be a starting PF worth $50+M on a 50+ win team? The difference can be huge. I don't know the answer to that. But I do know I give a lot more weight when comparing stats to guys on winning teams vs. guys on 66- and 53-loss teams. Damn you Shareef Abdur Rahim... you did this to me!]

Heh, indeed. We all have our favorites, but you'd think we came off a 55-win season reading some of our commentary on our players. If these guys are all as great as we think they are, then it appears that the sum of the parts is about 2X better than the whole. I guess we can just blame poor Sam Mitchell for all that is wrong! How could he not take this collection of all-stars and get them to at least the 4th seed!?

Here is the reality from my perspective. If I look at ALL of last season, not just the final 30-some games, but all of it, we had three plus players: Rubio, KG, and Towns; three neutral-ish players: Wiggins, Miller, Dieng, and Prince; and a bunch of negatives: Everyone else.

I think the hope rests in that at least one plus player just keeps getting better (Towns), two of the neutral guys flipped to positives in the second half and hopefully stay there (Wiggins and Dieng), and there is hope in at least three of the negatives moving to neutral or better in the near future (LaVine, Bjelica, and Jones).

And yes, a better coach will help too.

I'm not sure why we have to assign blame for a season in which our favorite team almost doubled their win total...I look at last season as a successful one that positions us for another big leap this year. The fact of the matter is young teams don't win consistently, and the Wolves' core was younger than anyone last season. Of the 6 players that played the most minutes, 5 of them were in their first 3 years, and the 6th (Rubio) hasn't reached his peak either. Despite playing a bunch of kids who don't really understand the NBA yet, we played .500 ball over the last 2 months of the season...that's reason for huge optimism.

And yes, Gorgui was one of our key players in our late-season success, and we need to find a way to retain him. I keep mentioning OkC as a model for us, and we can learn 2 things from them.

1) We can expect improvement this year like OkC experienced in 2009-10. when the lightbulb turned on for their young stars and they won 27 more games than the previous year. That's what happens in the NBA. and our roster looks a lot like the 2009-10 Thunder in terms of being positioned for a big step forward.

2) Contracts have to be closely monitored to ensure you can keep all the good players you want to keep (without getting into the lux tax), Having to give up Harden really hurt the Thunder, because Durant/Westbrook really need a third star (and better supporting players).

Gorgui is not likely to be a star, but it's not easy to find 6'11" young players with his shooting touch, work ethic and smarts. 2016 was a very good thirs year for him, as he improved his PER to 17.17 (3rd on the team behind KAT and Rubio) and made good strides in his PnR defense. NBA players usually continue to improve into their 4th and 5th years, and there's no reason Gorgui can't be a 20 PER guy with even better defense than last year. Thibs needs to decide whether he wants to offer a max contract to a guy like Horford, or lock up Gorgui at a much more reasonable price and cover the PF position with an improving Belly and G, and perhaps a few minutes from KG. I prefer the latter option, and would endorse extending G this summer (even at an amount that might seem a little high at first) as a first step to keeping this promising young core together.

[Monster]

I don't know what else there is really to discuss here. Personally I just can't agree that Dieng isn't much that much different than Favors or Horford. Agree to disagree.

I cannot locate the post where someone wrote there isn't much difference between Dieng and Favors/Horford. Everything I've found acknowledges Horford/Favors as better players - at a higher price. What you are quoting is me attempting to provide perspective of the gap between those players. Since the entire thread is about attempting to establish Dieng's value, I'm not sure why anyone would take issue with trying to define the gap between levels. For what it's worth, there are multiple sites/formulas that attempt to provide an all inclusive player value. Here are the four different sites using players being tossed around:

Basketball Reference (VORP)
Horford (4.1), Dieng (2.5), Favors (2.3), Henson (0.9)

ESPN (RPM Wins)
Horford (10.70), Dieng (8.11), Favors (5.52), Henson (.80)

NBA.com (PIE)
Favors (14.0), Horford (13.7), Dieng (11.5), Henson (10.3)

CBS.com Player Ratings
Horford (70.09), Favors (68.10), Dieng (64.84), Henson (35.84)

If someone is going to compare Dieng to John Henson, I certainly can compare Dieng to Horford/Favors.

I'm sticking with my position to agree to disagree you value Dieng much higher than I do and that's cool. If you are serious about "I'm not sure why anyone would take issue with trying to define the gap between levels." then IMO take the high road next time and be respectful of others perspective.

[Carlos Danger]

Once again... I'm even more disappointed in the Wolves last season. Why did I follow that team for so long?

Dieng is a poor man's Horford/Favors... and then there's Wiggins, Towns, Rubio and LaVine. 4 of those guys are even good to great to OMG defensively!

And the team still lost 53 games and finished 28th on defense. What a disappointment.

[Note: I don't mind Dieng. He's fine as a 4th or 5th option. He's improved... that's huge. And the cap situation is fine for now. I don't know how that translates down the line though. We know Towns and Dieng can lock down the frontcourt on a 53-loss team. And probably even a .500 type team. The question is whether he's good enough to be a starting PF worth $50+M on a 50+ win team? The difference can be huge. I don't know the answer to that. But I do know I give a lot more weight when comparing stats to guys on winning teams vs. guys on 66- and 53-loss teams. Damn you Shareef Abdur Rahim... you did this to me!]

Heh, indeed. We all have our favorites, but you'd think we came off a 55-win season reading some of our commentary on our players. If these guys are all as great as we think they are, then it appears that the sum of the parts is about 2X better than the whole. I guess we can just blame poor Sam Mitchell for all that is wrong! How could he not take this collection of all-stars and get them to at least the 4th seed!?

Here is the reality from my perspective. If I look at ALL of last season, not just the final 30-some games, but all of it, we had three plus players: Rubio, KG, and Towns; three neutral-ish players: Wiggins, Miller, Dieng, and Prince; and a bunch of negatives: Everyone else.

I think the hope rests in that at least one plus player just keeps getting better (Towns), two of the neutral guys flipped to positives in the second half and hopefully stay there (Wiggins and Dieng), and there is hope in at least three of the negatives moving to neutral or better in the near future (LaVine, Bjelica, and Jones).

And yes, a better coach will help too.

The coaching opening was Nationally advertised as an attractive landing spot due to the potential of several good young players. I don't think anyone on here is claiming Thibbs is inheriting a collection of All-Stars. But many believe there are at least some pieces here to work with including the last two ROY winners. Obviously there is still work to be done. But it's a long off season for Wolves fan. Quibbling over trades that will never happen and Free Agents that will never sign helps pass the time.

[Coolbreeze44]

I don't know what else there is really to discuss here. Personally I just can't agree that Dieng isn't much that much different than Favors or Horford. Agree to disagree.

I cannot locate the post where someone wrote there isn't much difference between Dieng and Favors/Horford. Everything I've found acknowledges Horford/Favors as better players - at a higher price. What you are quoting is me attempting to provide perspective of the gap between those players. Since the entire thread is about attempting to establish Dieng's value, I'm not sure why anyone would take issue with trying to define the gap between levels. For what it's worth, there are multiple sites/formulas that attempt to provide an all inclusive player value. Here are the four different sites using players being tossed around:

Basketball Reference (VORP)
Horford (4.1), Dieng (2.5), Favors (2.3), Henson (0.9)

ESPN (RPM Wins)
Horford (10.70), Dieng (8.11), Favors (5.52), Henson (.80)

NBA.com (PIE)
Favors (14.0), Horford (13.7), Dieng (11.5), Henson (10.3)

CBS.com Player Ratings
Horford (70.09), Favors (68.10), Dieng (64.84), Henson (35.84)

If someone is going to compare Dieng to John Henson, I certainly can compare Dieng to Horford/Favors.

I'm sticking with my position to agree to disagree you value Dieng much higher than I do and that's cool. If you are serious about "I'm not sure why anyone would take issue with trying to define the gap between levels." then IMO take the high road next time and be respectful of others perspective.

Danger is almost always respective on this board. I don't think it's fair to take this shot at him.

[Coolbreeze44]

Once again... I'm even more disappointed in the Wolves last season. Why did I follow that team for so long?

Dieng is a poor man's Horford/Favors... and then there's Wiggins, Towns, Rubio and LaVine. 4 of those guys are even good to great to OMG defensively!

And the team still lost 53 games and finished 28th on defense. What a disappointment.

[Note: I don't mind Dieng. He's fine as a 4th or 5th option. He's improved... that's huge. And the cap situation is fine for now. I don't know how that translates down the line though. We know Towns and Dieng can lock down the frontcourt on a 53-loss team. And probably even a .500 type team. The question is whether he's good enough to be a starting PF worth $50+M on a 50+ win team? The difference can be huge. I don't know the answer to that. But I do know I give a lot more weight when comparing stats to guys on winning teams vs. guys on 66- and 53-loss teams. Damn you Shareef Abdur Rahim... you did this to me!]

Heh, indeed. We all have our favorites, but you'd think we came off a 55-win season reading some of our commentary on our players. If these guys are all as great as we think they are, then it appears that the sum of the parts is about 2X better than the whole. I guess we can just blame poor Sam Mitchell for all that is wrong! How could he not take this collection of all-stars and get them to at least the 4th seed!?

Here is the reality from my perspective. If I look at ALL of last season, not just the final 30-some games, but all of it, we had three plus players: Rubio, KG, and Towns; three neutral-ish players: Wiggins, Miller, Dieng, and Prince; and a bunch of negatives: Everyone else.

I think the hope rests in that at least one plus player just keeps getting better (Towns), two of the neutral guys flipped to positives in the second half and hopefully stay there (Wiggins and Dieng), and there is hope in at least three of the negatives moving to neutral or better in the near future (LaVine, Bjelica, and Jones).

And yes, a better coach will help too.

I'm not sure why we have to assign blame for a season in which our favorite team almost doubled their win total...I look at last season as a successful one that positions us for another big leap this year. The fact of the matter is young teams don't win consistently, and the Wolves' core was younger than anyone last season. Of the 6 players that played the most minutes, 5 of them were in their first 3 years, and the 6th (Rubio) hasn't reached his peak either. Despite playing a bunch of kids who don't really understand the NBA yet, we played .500 ball over the last 2 months of the season...that's reason for huge optimism.

And yes, Gorgui was one of our key players in our late-season success, and we need to find a way to retain him. I keep mentioning OkC as a model for us, and we can learn 2 things from them.

1) We can expect improvement this year like OkC experienced in 2009-10. when the lightbulb turned on for their young stars and they won 27 more games than the previous year. That's what happens in the NBA. and our roster looks a lot like the 2009-10 Thunder in terms of being positioned for a big step forward.

2) Contracts have to be closely monitored to ensure you can keep all the good players you want to keep (without getting into the lux tax), Having to give up Harden really hurt the Thunder, because Durant/Westbrook really need a third star (and better supporting players).

Gorgui is not likely to be a star, but it's not easy to find 6'11" young players with his shooting touch, work ethic and smarts. 2016 was a very good thirs year for him, as he improved his PER to 17.17 (3rd on the team behind KAT and Rubio) and made good strides in his PnR defense. NBA players usually continue to improve into their 4th and 5th years, and there's no reason Gorgui can't be a 20 PER guy with even better defense than last year. Thibs needs to decide whether he wants to offer a max contract to a guy like Horford, or lock up Gorgui at a much more reasonable price and cover the PF position with an improving Belly and G, and perhaps a few minutes from KG. I prefer the latter option, and would endorse extending G this summer (even at an amount that might seem a little high at first) as a first step to keeping this promising young core together.

So many good points in this post. And I can sum it up in very few words, and they are words I've used many times before, "It's a Process". You can either choose to be patient with it, or you can fret at every bump along the way. I try to have patience.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Once again... I'm even more disappointed in the Wolves last season. Why did I follow that team for so long?

Dieng is a poor man's Horford/Favors... and then there's Wiggins, Towns, Rubio and LaVine. 4 of those guys are even good to great to OMG defensively!

And the team still lost 53 games and finished 28th on defense. What a disappointment.

[Note: I don't mind Dieng. He's fine as a 4th or 5th option. He's improved... that's huge. And the cap situation is fine for now. I don't know how that translates down the line though. We know Towns and Dieng can lock down the frontcourt on a 53-loss team. And probably even a .500 type team. The question is whether he's good enough to be a starting PF worth $50+M on a 50+ win team? The difference can be huge. I don't know the answer to that. But I do know I give a lot more weight when comparing stats to guys on winning teams vs. guys on 66- and 53-loss teams. Damn you Shareef Abdur Rahim... you did this to me!]

Heh, indeed. We all have our favorites, but you'd think we came off a 55-win season reading some of our commentary on our players. If these guys are all as great as we think they are, then it appears that the sum of the parts is about 2X better than the whole. I guess we can just blame poor Sam Mitchell for all that is wrong! How could he not take this collection of all-stars and get them to at least the 4th seed!?

Here is the reality from my perspective. If I look at ALL of last season, not just the final 30-some games, but all of it, we had three plus players: Rubio, KG, and Towns; three neutral-ish players: Wiggins, Miller, Dieng, and Prince; and a bunch of negatives: Everyone else.

I think the hope rests in that at least one plus player just keeps getting better (Towns), two of the neutral guys flipped to positives in the second half and hopefully stay there (Wiggins and Dieng), and there is hope in at least three of the negatives moving to neutral or better in the near future (LaVine, Bjelica, and Jones).

And yes, a better coach will help too.

I'm not sure why we have to assign blame for a season in which our favorite team almost doubled their win total...I look at last season as a successful one that positions us for another big leap this year. The fact of the matter is young teams don't win consistently, and the Wolves' core was younger than anyone last season. Of the 6 players that played the most minutes, 5 of them were in their first 3 years, and the 6th (Rubio) hasn't reached his peak either. Despite playing a bunch of kids who don't really understand the NBA yet, we played .500 ball over the last 2 months of the season...that's reason for huge optimism.

And yes, Gorgui was one of our key players in our late-season success, and we need to find a way to retain him. I keep mentioning OkC as a model for us, and we can learn 2 things from them.

1) We can expect improvement this year like OkC experienced in 2009-10. when the lightbulb turned on for their young stars and they won 27 more games than the previous year. That's what happens in the NBA. and our roster looks a lot like the 2009-10 Thunder in terms of being positioned for a big step forward.

2) Contracts have to be closely monitored to ensure you can keep all the good players you want to keep (without getting into the lux tax), Having to give up Harden really hurt the Thunder, because Durant/Westbrook really need a third star (and better supporting players).

Gorgui is not likely to be a star, but it's not easy to find 6'11" young players with his shooting touch, work ethic and smarts. 2016 was a very good thirs year for him, as he improved his PER to 17.17 (3rd on the team behind KAT and Rubio) and made good strides in his PnR defense. NBA players usually continue to improve into their 4th and 5th years, and there's no reason Gorgui can't be a 20 PER guy with even better defense than last year. Thibs needs to decide whether he wants to offer a max contract to a guy like Horford, or lock up Gorgui at a much more reasonable price and cover the PF position with an improving Belly and G, and perhaps a few minutes from KG. I prefer the latter option, and would endorse extending G this summer (even at an amount that might seem a little high at first) as a first step to keeping this promising young core together.

I'm not assigning blame to anyone LST. My comment on Mitchell was tongue and cheek, as I was just riffing off of Abe's initial comment.

I actually agree with pretty much everyone else in this discussion. We have a young, exciting roster. We have potential. But nothing is guaranteed, especially an OKC-like jump of 27 more wins.

As for Dieng, I think I've been pretty supportive of re-signing him. But I get why others might be hesitant beyond a certain price point.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Once again... I'm even more disappointed in the Wolves last season. Why did I follow that team for so long?

Dieng is a poor man's Horford/Favors... and then there's Wiggins, Towns, Rubio and LaVine. 4 of those guys are even good to great to OMG defensively!

And the team still lost 53 games and finished 28th on defense. What a disappointment.

[Note: I don't mind Dieng. He's fine as a 4th or 5th option. He's improved... that's huge. And the cap situation is fine for now. I don't know how that translates down the line though. We know Towns and Dieng can lock down the frontcourt on a 53-loss team. And probably even a .500 type team. The question is whether he's good enough to be a starting PF worth $50+M on a 50+ win team? The difference can be huge. I don't know the answer to that. But I do know I give a lot more weight when comparing stats to guys on winning teams vs. guys on 66- and 53-loss teams. Damn you Shareef Abdur Rahim... you did this to me!]

Heh, indeed. We all have our favorites, but you'd think we came off a 55-win season reading some of our commentary on our players. If these guys are all as great as we think they are, then it appears that the sum of the parts is about 2X better than the whole. I guess we can just blame poor Sam Mitchell for all that is wrong! How could he not take this collection of all-stars and get them to at least the 4th seed!?

Here is the reality from my perspective. If I look at ALL of last season, not just the final 30-some games, but all of it, we had three plus players: Rubio, KG, and Towns; three neutral-ish players: Wiggins, Miller, Dieng, and Prince; and a bunch of negatives: Everyone else.

I think the hope rests in that at least one plus player just keeps getting better (Towns), two of the neutral guys flipped to positives in the second half and hopefully stay there (Wiggins and Dieng), and there is hope in at least three of the negatives moving to neutral or better in the near future (LaVine, Bjelica, and Jones).

And yes, a better coach will help too.

I'm not sure why we have to assign blame for a season in which our favorite team almost doubled their win total...I look at last season as a successful one that positions us for another big leap this year. The fact of the matter is young teams don't win consistently, and the Wolves' core was younger than anyone last season. Of the 6 players that played the most minutes, 5 of them were in their first 3 years, and the 6th (Rubio) hasn't reached his peak either. Despite playing a bunch of kids who don't really understand the NBA yet, we played .500 ball over the last 2 months of the season...that's reason for huge optimism.

And yes, Gorgui was one of our key players in our late-season success, and we need to find a way to retain him. I keep mentioning OkC as a model for us, and we can learn 2 things from them.

1) We can expect improvement this year like OkC experienced in 2009-10. when the lightbulb turned on for their young stars and they won 27 more games than the previous year. That's what happens in the NBA. and our roster looks a lot like the 2009-10 Thunder in terms of being positioned for a big step forward.

2) Contracts have to be closely monitored to ensure you can keep all the good players you want to keep (without getting into the lux tax), Having to give up Harden really hurt the Thunder, because Durant/Westbrook really need a third star (and better supporting players).

Gorgui is not likely to be a star, but it's not easy to find 6'11" young players with his shooting touch, work ethic and smarts. 2016 was a very good thirs year for him, as he improved his PER to 17.17 (3rd on the team behind KAT and Rubio) and made good strides in his PnR defense. NBA players usually continue to improve into their 4th and 5th years, and there's no reason Gorgui can't be a 20 PER guy with even better defense than last year. Thibs needs to decide whether he wants to offer a max contract to a guy like Horford, or lock up Gorgui at a much more reasonable price and cover the PF position with an improving Belly and G, and perhaps a few minutes from KG. I prefer the latter option, and would endorse extending G this summer (even at an amount that might seem a little high at first) as a first step to keeping this promising young core together.

I'm not assigning blame to anyone LST. My comment on Mitchell was tongue and cheek, as I was just riffing off of Abe's initial comment.

I actually agree with pretty much everyone else in this discussion. We have a young, exciting roster. We have potential. But nothing is guaranteed, especially an OKC-like jump of 27 more wins.

As for Dieng, I think I've been pretty supportive of re-signing him. But I get why others might be hesitant beyond a certain price point.

Yeah, maybe should have attached my comment to abe's rather than yours. Just trying to make the point that in many ways last year was a success. I know it's tough to come to that conclusion though after 11 years out of the playoffs.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I agree that last season was a success, LST.

But not for the amount of wins/losses necessarily. The finish was nice. But last year was very very successful because we found out just what type of player Towns can be.

Along with secondary players like Wiggins, Rubio, LaVine, Dieng... et al... and a proven head coach... the Wolves earned more optimism than arguably any other time in franchise history.

[Monster]

I don't know what else there is really to discuss here. Personally I just can't agree that Dieng isn't much that much different than Favors or Horford. Agree to disagree.

I cannot locate the post where someone wrote there isn't much difference between Dieng and Favors/Horford. Everything I've found acknowledges Horford/Favors as better players - at a higher price. What you are quoting is me attempting to provide perspective of the gap between those players. Since the entire thread is about attempting to establish Dieng's value, I'm not sure why anyone would take issue with trying to define the gap between levels. For what it's worth, there are multiple sites/formulas that attempt to provide an all inclusive player value. Here are the four different sites using players being tossed around:

Basketball Reference (VORP)
Horford (4.1), Dieng (2.5), Favors (2.3), Henson (0.9)

ESPN (RPM Wins)
Horford (10.70), Dieng (8.11), Favors (5.52), Henson (.80)

NBA.com (PIE)
Favors (14.0), Horford (13.7), Dieng (11.5), Henson (10.3)

CBS.com Player Ratings
Horford (70.09), Favors (68.10), Dieng (64.84), Henson (35.84)

If someone is going to compare Dieng to John Henson, I certainly can compare Dieng to Horford/Favors.

I'm sticking with my position to agree to disagree you value Dieng much higher than I do and that's cool. If you are serious about "I'm not sure why anyone would take issue with trying to define the gap between levels." then IMO take the high road next time and be respectful of others perspective.

Danger is almost always respective on this board. I don't think it's fair to take this shot at him.

You are right he is generally respectful and I have appreciated his defending Dieng for all these months who deserved to have someone in his corner. The post I alluded to wasn't respectful though we are all better than that so I really wasn't just singling him out.