Wolves offseason thread

[thedoper]

Trading mediocre players for Butler was pretty brilliant.

[Lipoli390]

Trading mediocre players for Butler was pretty brilliant.

I disagree. The Bulls were aggressively shopping Butler and had already made the decision to shed salary and rebuild. I don't see brilliance in trading two young recent lottery picks and a 7th pick in the draft for the 28-year old vet Butler who didn't fit the Bull's rebuilding plans after the Celtics and others showed no interest. I'm not knocking the trade, but it was far from brilliant.

[Monster]

Trading mediocre players for Butler was pretty brilliant.

I disagree. The Bulls were aggressively shopping Butler and had already made the decision to shed salary and rebuild. I don't see brilliance in trading two young recent lottery picks and a 7th pick in the draft for the 28-year old vet Butler who didn't fit the Bull's rebuilding plans after the Celtics and others showed no interest. I'm not knocking the trade, but it was far from brilliant.

These two posts are great examples of how 2 smart folks can view the same thing differently. I am going to assert there is nothing wrong with that.

[thedoper]

Trading mediocre players for Butler was pretty brilliant.

I disagree. The Bulls were aggressively shopping Butler and had already made the decision to shed salary and rebuild. I don't see brilliance in trading two young recent lottery picks and a 7th pick in the draft for the 28-year old vet Butler who didn't fit the Bull's rebuilding plans after the Celtics and others showed no interest. I'm not knocking the trade, but it was far from brilliant.

These two posts are great examples of how 2 smart folks can view the same thing differently. I am going to assert there is nothing wrong with that.

I don't think so either. Predicting the outcome of players is challenging. I know I'm in the minority here in thinking Wiggins is still going to be a top tier player. From what I saw I didn't think any of those 3 would become more than role players. Plus we got a draft pick, not that I think Patton is going to be more than a role player either. But if those Chicago kids don't work out it will absolutely have been brilliant to have gotten off of Lavine and Dunn and gotten an all star.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Wiggins can actually make really good passes on his drives to the hoop now as well which is a new skill. He honestly looked like our best drive and kick player at times this year which is something he just didn't do before. So his individual defense showed Kawhi potential and he started making great passes out of his drives to the hoop and those are two huge developments this year. The hardest part with him is his improvements are pretty much eye test only because he's just not consistent yet and let's be honest, his teammates didn't shoot well around him either for these improvements to really show up in the stats. Tyus and Belly missing wide open 3's on Wiggins drive and kicks happened far too often this year. I also think if he can bulk up more it will help him naturally impact the stat sheet easier. I saw enough new things this year to keep my confidence level in him high.

[Lipoli390]

Wiggins can actually make really good passes on his drives to the hoop now as well which is a new skill. He honestly looked like our best drive and kick player at times this year which is something he just didn't do before. So his individual defense showed Kawhi potential and he started making great passes out of his drives to the hoop and those are two huge developments this year. The hardest part with him is his improvements are pretty much eye test only because he's just not consistent yet and let's be honest, his teammates didn't shoot well around him either for these improvements to really show up in the stats. Tyus and Belly missing wide open 3's on Wiggins drive and kicks happened far too often this year. I also think if he can bulk up more it will help him naturally impact the stat sheet easier. I saw enough new things this year to keep my confidence level in him high.

Good point about Wiggins' passing on drive and kicks. I noticed that too. That's a skill he really didn't show until this past season, but I was impressed. Unfortunately, the only player in our starting lineup who can be relied upon to consistently knock down threes on kick-outs from Wiggins is KAT. That might be OK, but it's food for thought. Wiggins also played some really good defense down the stretch and in the playoffs. So there were some positive signs this past season.

I don't share your high confidence level in Wiggins because of his poor handle, pattern of inconsistency and failure to improve his shooting over 4 seasons. However, I haven't lost all confidence in him. I keep bringing up Chauncey Billups. I do that because I remember players raving about how he dominated in practice when he was here. Nevertheless he only rarely showed flashes in games and ultimately Flip and McHale gave up on him. The rest is history. I don't want to see a repeat of that. When I hear Butler and Taj -- two vets I respect -- rave about what they see from Wiggins in practice, I'm convinced that we should keep him for at least one more season unless we get an offer like a straight-up deal for Kahwai Leonard. Even then, I'm not so sure because if the Spurs are willing to do the deal it's probably a bad one for us. And unlike Leonard, Wiggins is durable. I'd still do the deal, but not without trepidation.

I'd trade Wiggins to Atlanta for their own high lottery pick and Bazemore, but I doubt the Hawks would do that deal. I'd trade him to the Sixers for Covington and their #10 pick, but I don't see the Sixers agreeing to that. I'd trade him straight up to the Wizards for Beal, but not for the 31-year old Wall who is coming off knee surgery and seems to have an attitude without the championship pedigree to justify the attitude. I just can't see the Wizards signing off on that deal. I'll stop there. My main point is that I can't envision a realistic trade that would bring what I would consider enough value to justify trading Wiggins this summer. So we roll with him and hope he's a very late bloomer.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Wiggins' has always been pretty good at those drives and kicks. I'm sure Khans remembers the play in Portland two seasons ago where Wiggins made a drive to the hoop then kicked it out to Rubio for the game-winning 3. Khans, you do remember that, don't you!?

Defensively, he's always been pretty solid when matched up one on one in isolation. I'm not sure how Wiggins makes this huge leap defensively people claim he made while adding Butler and Gibson and we are STILL near dead last in defensive FG% efficiency. We can't blame everything on KAT and Crawford.

I think folks are squinting REALLY hard to see improvement in Wiggins. The fact is by year 4 it needs to start showing up in pretty clear ways. I won't deny that there were some minor improvements along the margins for Wiggins, but he is still one of the most inefficient wings in the NBA and a mediocre rebounder and passer. None of those things have changed.

[Monster]

Wiggins can actually make really good passes on his drives to the hoop now as well which is a new skill. He honestly looked like our best drive and kick player at times this year which is something he just didn't do before. So his individual defense showed Kawhi potential and he started making great passes out of his drives to the hoop and those are two huge developments this year. The hardest part with him is his improvements are pretty much eye test only because he's just not consistent yet and let's be honest, his teammates didn't shoot well around him either for these improvements to really show up in the stats. Tyus and Belly missing wide open 3's on Wiggins drive and kicks happened far too often this year. I also think if he can bulk up more it will help him naturally impact the stat sheet easier. I saw enough new things this year to keep my confidence level in him high.

Good point about Wiggins' passing on drive and kicks. I noticed that too. That's a skill he really didn't show until this past season, but I was impressed. Unfortunately, the only player in our starting lineup who can be relied upon to consistently knock down threes on kick-outs from Wiggins is KAT. That might be OK, but it's food for thought. Wiggins also played some really good defense down the stretch and in the playoffs. So there were some positive signs this past season.

I don't share your high confidence level in Wiggins because of his poor handle, pattern of inconsistency and failure to improve his shooting over 4 seasons. However, I haven't lost all confidence in him. I keep bringing up Chauncey Billups. I do that because I remember players raving about how he dominated in practice when he was here. Nevertheless he only rarely showed flashes in games and ultimately Flip and McHale gave up on him. The rest is history. I don't want to see a repeat of that. When I hear Butler and Taj -- two vets I respect -- rave about what they see from Wiggins in practice, I'm convinced that we should keep him for at least one more season unless we get an offer like a straight-up deal for Kahwai Leonard. Even then, I'm not so sure because if the Spurs are willing to do the deal it's probably a bad one for us. And unlike Leonard, Wiggins is durable. I'd still do the deal, but not without trepidation.

I'd trade Wiggins to Atlanta for their own high lottery pick and Bazemore, but I doubt the Hawks would do that deal. I'd trade him to the Sixers for Covington and their #10 pick, but I don't see the Sixers agreeing to that. I'd trade him straight up to the Wizards for Beal, but not for the 31-year old Wall who is coming off knee surgery and seems to have an attitude without the championship pedigree to justify the attitude. I just can't see the Wizards signing off on that deal. I'll stop there. My main point is that I can't envision a realistic trade that would bring what I would consider enough value to justify trading Wiggins this summer. So we roll with him and hope he's a very late bloomer.

Billups is a good example of the Wolves making an incorrect decision on a player but I don't think they "gave up" on him. I think another way of referring to that decision would be a better way to state it. They had a good player in TB they incorrectly chose over him and Billups got a very nice contract to go to the Pistons and be a starter. They valued him just not enough. They did the same thing with Bobby Jackson. Of course what gets lost a bit is they did make a very good signing in Hudson on the first contract to fill the void. The 2nd contract wasn't so good. It kinda makes me think about Rose who looked really solid to even pretty good in the FEW games he was here. They can't make a bad decision on this 2nd contract. They can't get their evaluation of Tyus wrong. How much should they pay Belly? They won't get all of these decisions right but they have to get a few of them right and if they miss make another move that helps the team. It would also help to have a bit of good luck too.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Wiggins' has always been pretty good at those drives and kicks. I'm sure Khans remembers the play in Portland two seasons ago where Wiggins made a drive to the hoop then kicked it out to Rubio for the game-winning 3. Khans, you do remember that, don't you!?

Defensively, he's always been pretty solid when matched up one on one in isolation. I'm not sure how Wiggins makes this huge leap defensively people claim he made while adding Butler and Gibson and we are STILL near dead last in defensive FG% efficiency. We can't blame everything on KAT and Crawford.

I think folks are squinting REALLY hard to see improvement in Wiggins. The fact is by year 4 it needs to start showing up in pretty clear ways. I won't deny that there were some minor improvements along the margins for Wiggins, but he is still one of the most inefficient wings in the NBA and a mediocre rebounder and passer. None of those things have changed.

So a single drive and kick is your best example of him having that skill before? I'm talking about him actually utilizing 2 threats on drives to the hoop on every drive. He's now a legitimate threat to get to the bucket or make a really good pass to the perimeter on every drive to the rim. That just wasn't something he did before on a consistent basis. He would always attack the rim relentlessly and had complete tunnel vision. He's 2/3rds of the way to being a triple threat with the ball in his hands. If he can find a consistent shot it's game over. Also he had a few solid defensive possessions in previous years, but nothing compared to what he did in the Houston series at his peak. The play on Gordon where he stuck to him like glue for seemingly ever ending in the block at the rim was an elite defensive play. He had another where he used his length to guard the ball handler 25ft from the basket and get a steal like Kawhi does against poor ball handlers. Those are plays he hasn't made before. I don't have to squint to see these plays. They are blatantly obvious things that he did with more consistency down the final stretch of the season and into the playoffs.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Wiggins' has always been pretty good at those drives and kicks. I'm sure Khans remembers the play in Portland two seasons ago where Wiggins made a drive to the hoop then kicked it out to Rubio for the game-winning 3. Khans, you do remember that, don't you!?

Defensively, he's always been pretty solid when matched up one on one in isolation. I'm not sure how Wiggins makes this huge leap defensively people claim he made while adding Butler and Gibson and we are STILL near dead last in defensive FG% efficiency. We can't blame everything on KAT and Crawford.

I think folks are squinting REALLY hard to see improvement in Wiggins. The fact is by year 4 it needs to start showing up in pretty clear ways. I won't deny that there were some minor improvements along the margins for Wiggins, but he is still one of the most inefficient wings in the NBA and a mediocre rebounder and passer. None of those things have changed.

So a single drive and kick is your best example of him having that skill before? I'm talking about him actually utilizing 2 threats on drives to the hoop on every drive. He's now a legitimate threat to get to the bucket or make a really good pass to the perimeter on every drive to the rim. That just wasn't something he did before on a consistent basis. He would always attack the rim relentlessly and had complete tunnel vision. He's 2/3rds of the way to being a triple threat with the ball in his hands. If he can find a consistent shot it's game over. Also he had a few solid defensive possessions in previous years, but nothing compared to what he did in the Houston series at his peak. The play on Gordon where he stuck to him like glue for seemingly ever ending in the block at the rim was an elite defensive play. He had another where he used his length to guard the ball handler 25ft from the basket and get a steal like Kawhi does against poor ball handlers. Those are plays he hasn't made before. I don't have to squint to see these plays. They are blatantly obvious things that he did with more consistency down the final stretch of the season and into the playoffs.

He can only get to the bucket if he goes right. Nearly every team that does its scouting job on him knows this. He also gets stripped of the ball half the time, even if he does get a step. Then when he gets to the free throw line, he makes sub-70% of his shots. If I were an opposing defense, I would love nothing more than to end possessions with the ball in Wiggins' hands looking to drive from the perimeter. The math favors the defense...

Also, being able to kick the ball out isn't THAT great of a skill. He averaged 1.9 assists this season! Again, you are squinting too hard.....