monsterpile wrote:Lip you got me on the John Collins bandwagon months ago I'm just giving you a hard time espcially when a underwhelming overhead reach is involved! I'll leave you alone on the bandwagon if you want. :)
Full disclosure I did buy a couple Creighton hats last week because of my guy Patton. Lol It just got me that ironically I bought one of them specifically for running.
Lol. Be careful not to break your foot running. :). My sister lives in Omaha and was really excited when I told her the Wolves drafted Patton. She said he grew up in a really thought neighborhood. I actually like Patton as a prospect, but not as much as Collins. I had him slightly ahead of Allen.
I saw some post suggesting Patton was out for the season. Have you heard that? I don't think it's true. I'm thinking and hoping he could be playing by December.
Speaking of tough neighborhoods in Omaha I had a roommate in college that lived for a few years with his Grandma in one of the tougher parts there. Hearing gun shots were common. I specifically remember when we roomed together we heard on the radio about someone getting shot and killed and he was like "Oh yeah that's like a block away from where my Grandma lives."
I actually posted a local article about his injury and some google searched laymen's comments earlier in this thread. It may also make my comment about the irony of buying Creighton hat for running make even more sense.
Also I asked you earlier if you thought Collins looked more slim (not in a bad way but a quicker way) and I'm curious what you think.
Yes, Collins does look slimmer to me. Watching him in summer league, he looked a bit slimmer and actually quicker than in the college videos I watched. Not that he didn't look trim and quick in college, just a bit slimmer and quicker.
monsterpile wrote:Another guy i am curious how Collins compares to in a few years even though they are different draft classes is Chriss.
Here is a video of Collins dunks in SL.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JCtFmCd2fbo
When I was watching these highlights I was thinking...Lip do you think Collins looks slimmer? I think he might. I actually thought Tatum may have looked slimmer also. Mobility is pretty big now days. Remember in the days of Shaq where guys were trying to bulk up as much as possible? It was so nice to see that era ending and it's only getting more that way and Lebron won't be around forever. Leonard is pretty imposing though as a wing.
Wow, that is a lot of highlight-reel dunks in only a small sample of games. That dude is a pogo stick.
Back to Patton....remember that one of Thibs' keys to generating open corner 3s is that his bigs need to roll hard to the hoop, sucking in weak side defenders that are leaving the corner shooter open. My guess is that he sees Patton as an elite roll man and rim runner that could put a tremendous amount of pressure on a defense since he can convert at such a high rate around the rim (and coincidentally, so can Collins). And then on the other end, his feet are quick enough to stay in front of small ballers. In an ideal world, a team counters small ball with big players that can punish small ballers offensively, while still being able to check them defensively.
As you noted, Q, Collins can do everything Patton can do. Collins was terrific in pick and roll and his college stats bear that out. Patton is longer, but Collins is more athletic. The difference for me is that Collins was far more productive than Patton in college. I'm sure you're right about why Thibs ended up picking Patton -- relying on the eye test (probably his scouts' eye test) over the numbers. That was my point. The numbers, especially rebounding numbers, should trump the eye test. And I'll add that Collins even stands out in the eye test. He's so bouncy and athletic, but also has great body control, nice footwork and a nice looking stroke.
It's obviously very early to draw any definitive conclusions about the this year's crop of rookies. But we all reach conclusions before the draft, which is the basis for making draft decisions or forming draft opinions. The summer league gives us a little extra data. And what Collins showed in summer league lines up with his performance in college.
Yup, you are preaching to the choir on the numbers vs. eye test, as I've been an advocate for advanced stats and how the "do shit" stats especially can translate from college to the pros.
However.....there are caveats. One is defensive potential, which can be elusive to gauge through stats and relies much more heavily on scouting. I have to believe Thibs & Co. see more defensive potential with Patton than Collins. I haven't watched either enough to have an opinion.
The other wild card here is their college experience. Perhaps Patton would have dominated in a similar fashion as Collins did as a sophomore (?). Patton is one of these late growth spurt players that is still trying to fill into his body and fully develop. From what I understand, he got better and better throughout his time at Creighton.
We'll see....I really don't have a strong opinion about either Collins or Patton since I never watched either player. But I'm going to give Thibs the benefit of the doubt on this one......
I didn't have a guy per say, I just liked the options at 16 to get a big. I really like Patton's hustle, athletic ability, and upside. He probably wouldn't have been my pick, but I don't think it was a bad pick by any means. I actually liked the draft value at 16 over the Wolves original pick, making the Butler trade even better.
TRKO wrote:I didn't have a guy per say, I just liked the options at 16 to get a big. I really like Patton's hustle, athletic ability, and upside. He probably wouldn't have been my pick, but I don't think it was a bad pick by any means. I actually liked the draft value at 16 over the Wolves original pick, making the Butler trade even better.
I like Patton's length and skill set. But I'm still a bit mystified by the references to his athleticism. He tested out as the worst athlete in the combine. I've seen videos of him running the floor end to end, but I see that as a tribute to his hustle. He doesn't look athletic to me and the combine testing confirms that observation.
TRKO wrote:I didn't have a guy per say, I just liked the options at 16 to get a big. I really like Patton's hustle, athletic ability, and upside. He probably wouldn't have been my pick, but I don't think it was a bad pick by any means. I actually liked the draft value at 16 over the Wolves original pick, making the Butler trade even better.
I like Patton's length and skill set. But I'm still a bit mystified by the references to his athleticism. He tested out as the worst athlete in the combine. I've seen videos of him running the floor end to end, but I see that as a tribute to his hustle. He doesn't look athletic to me and the combine testing confirms that observation.
Lip, Patton wasn't my choice at 16 because he really wasn't on my radar screen and he is admittedly a much more raw prospect than Collins, but i really like what I have read about him since we drafted him. I am not a big combine guy so I can't speak to his numbers there, but I do know he is consistently described as very athletic by the draft experts. NBAdraft.net called him an "elite athlete", and almost everyone talks about his quickness, lateral movement and explosiveness...apparently he measures even better on his second jump than his first. I have some questions about Patton...who wouldn't with a guy who has only been a center a couple years because he was guard-sized in high school...but athleticism is not one of my concerns.
TRKO- I have exactly the same opinion as you...that #16 was an easier pick than #7 for Thibs, thereby making the Butler trade even better. Now, Dennis Smith may prove to be a terrific hindsight pick if his SL performance is real, but Thibs was never going to draft him with his eye on Teague. And I still think Markannen is a big risk. That's why I like this thread and think it will be a fun one to revisit as the various careers develop. Thibs wanted a big man and had 4-5 options at 16. I think he found a guy that probably has the most upside in the group...I hope it works out.
TRKO wrote:I didn't have a guy per say, I just liked the options at 16 to get a big. I really like Patton's hustle, athletic ability, and upside. He probably wouldn't have been my pick, but I don't think it was a bad pick by any means. I actually liked the draft value at 16 over the Wolves original pick, making the Butler trade even better.
I like Patton's length and skill set. But I'm still a bit mystified by the references to his athleticism. He tested out as the worst athlete in the combine. I've seen videos of him running the floor end to end, but I see that as a tribute to his hustle. He doesn't look athletic to me and the combine testing confirms that observation.
Lip, Patton wasn't my choice at 16 because he really wasn't on my radar screen and he is admittedly a much more raw prospect than Collins, but i really like what I have read about him since we drafted him. I am not a big combine guy so I can't speak to his numbers there, but I do know he is consistently described as very athletic by the draft experts. NBAdraft.net called him an "elite athlete", and almost everyone talks about his quickness, lateral movement and explosiveness...apparently he measures even better on his second jump than his first. I have some questions about Patton...who wouldn't with a guy who has only been a center a couple years because he was guard-sized in high school...but athleticism is not one of my concerns.
TRKO- I have exactly the same opinion as you...that #16 was an easier pick than #7 for Thibs, thereby making the Butler trade even better. Now, Dennis Smith may prove to be a terrific hindsight pick if his SL performance is real, but Thibs was never going to draft him with his eye on Teague. And I still think Markannen is a big risk. That's why I like this thread and think it will be a fun one to revisit as the various careers develop. Thibs wanted a big man and had 4-5 options at 16. I think he found a guy that probably has the most upside in the group...I hope it works out.
I hope the reviews of his athleticism you're referring to turn out to be right. I agree that the #16 pick was an easier pick that #7. I wasn't high on Markannen. And even though I like Zach Collins a lot and would have taking him at #7, he's really raw and his body of work in college in limited. I can't say Patton was a bad pick. He was on my radar. I just think John Collins would have been a much better pick. But time will tell and I hope I turn out to be wrong. More than anything, I'm hoping Patton recovers fully and permanently from his foot injury.
TRKO wrote:I didn't have a guy per say, I just liked the options at 16 to get a big. I really like Patton's hustle, athletic ability, and upside. He probably wouldn't have been my pick, but I don't think it was a bad pick by any means. I actually liked the draft value at 16 over the Wolves original pick, making the Butler trade even better.
I like Patton's length and skill set. But I'm still a bit mystified by the references to his athleticism. He tested out as the worst athlete in the combine. I've seen videos of him running the floor end to end, but I see that as a tribute to his hustle. He doesn't look athletic to me and the combine testing confirms that observation.
Lip, Patton wasn't my choice at 16 because he really wasn't on my radar screen and he is admittedly a much more raw prospect than Collins, but i really like what I have read about him since we drafted him. I am not a big combine guy so I can't speak to his numbers there, but I do know he is consistently described as very athletic by the draft experts. NBAdraft.net called him an "elite athlete", and almost everyone talks about his quickness, lateral movement and explosiveness...apparently he measures even better on his second jump than his first. I have some questions about Patton...who wouldn't with a guy who has only been a center a couple years because he was guard-sized in high school...but athleticism is not one of my concerns.
TRKO- I have exactly the same opinion as you...that #16 was an easier pick than #7 for Thibs, thereby making the Butler trade even better. Now, Dennis Smith may prove to be a terrific hindsight pick if his SL performance is real, but Thibs was never going to draft him with his eye on Teague. And I still think Markannen is a big risk. That's why I like this thread and think it will be a fun one to revisit as the various careers develop. Thibs wanted a big man and had 4-5 options at 16. I think he found a guy that probably has the most upside in the group...I hope it works out.
I hope the reviews of his athleticism you're referring to turn out to be right. I agree that the #16 pick was an easier pick that #7. I wasn't high on Markannen. And even though I like Zach Collins a lot and would have taking him at #7, he's really raw and his body of work in college in limited. I can't say Patton was a bad pick. He was on my radar. I just think John Collins would have been a much better pick. But time will tell and I hope I turn out to be wrong. More than anything, I'm hoping Patton recovers fully and permanently from his foot injury.
While I think (and this is not a strong opinion) Patton and Allen will have better careers than Collins, I have little doubt that Collins was by far the most ready of the 3 to contribute this year. I think drafting Collins and signing Gibson would have allowed Thibs to feel comfortable using Cole to bring back a more needed shooting asset (although I'm on board as having more faith in Cole than Thibs shows), because KAT/Gibson, Dieng/Belly would have been a nice 5-4 depth chart. But now I think drafting a rawer Patton practically forces Thibs to keep Cole around for depth, and perhaps Payne too. We don't know what Thibs was thinking, but I suspect he took a home run (or strikeout) swing on Patton rather than going with the more sure (albeit perhaps lower ceiling) pick in Collins.
I'm unaware of Patton's combine numbers. From what I've seen of him on YouTube he seems pretty athletic and mobile, maybe not to the level of his contemporaries, but pretty athletic none the less. Like I said, he wasn't the guy I would have gotten, but I like the pick.
Patton said in an interview that it took him three years to adjust to his body after the huge growth spurt early in high school. He also thinks he's still growing (albeit very slowly). If you look at his frame, I think he can get bigger and stronger too. Thibs believes that size still matters in the NBA and if you get a guy with soft hands, good footwork, and an ability to get to the front of the rim, it will create open shots for himself or others.
I have no clue what he winds up becoming because I just haven't seen him play enough. I get why Thibs drafted him though.
Here are some of my takeaways that jumped out at me from this game against Clemson.
Collins definitely got pushed around at times. He is actually more slight than I perceived in his highlights. I do think he is more muscle tone now than he was during this game but he doesn't have a strong base. His athletic ability didn't really show up in this game as much. The NBA may be better for him in that regard. There were at least 5 times he fell or was pushed to the floor.
There were a few times he got beat down the floor by his man and I was a little surprised by that because I percieved him as being an effort guy and for the most part he is.
I'm not sure if him playing defense in no man's land was by design or not. Either way he won't be able to do that in the NBA.
These may seem like mostly negative stuff but most everything you hear or have read about him being a guy that rebounds scores etc was on display here too. His midrange jumper looked plenty good I mostly picked out stuff I saw in game that jumped out at me.
