Toliver to the wolves

[TAFKASP]

Sorry to be such a downer lately, but I can't see a pathway for this franchise to contend.

Agreed. This is the most unmotivated offseason I've had with the Wolves or Wild as both teams look to have greater odds of failing then succeeding. Our two highly touted number one picks have both proven to have major holes in their games that likely keeps them as a best case scenario 4-8 seed with little or no chance of upending the top 3 in the playoffs. I'm just kinda numb to this team at this point. You'd think I'd be upset that after keeping the dream alive for the prior 13 losing seasons that the current rebuild looks like a dead end too, but I cannot muster the emotion.

[Lipoli390]

I'm with Q in liking the fact we finally addressed our need for shooting. But for me this move overall is a big yawn. Sorry to be such a downer lately, but I can't see a pathway for this franchise to contend. As hard as it may be to accept, we need big changes, again.

Cool -- You and I have been on the same page for a while and remain so. While I like or draft and like the Tolliver signing, I don't see a path for this team to becoming a title contender. The Celtics and Sixers have shown us the path, which entails the patient, strategic accumulation and melding of young talent paired with a top-flight head coach cut out for the modern NBA.

The Warriors have about another 3-4 years before they start to decline and the Lakers will have a 3-4 year run with LeBron. So the window of opportunity lies about 3 to 4 years down the road. KAT and Tyus Jones will be 26 years old 4 years from now and Wiggins 27, all of them just entering their prime. This team should have continued to accumulate and develop young talent and paired that talent with a head coach who can get the most out of them. You already know my view of Thibodeau the head coach. In my view, Thibodeau the PBO jumped the gun last season, trading Dunn, LaVine and a #7 pick for Butler, and then spending big bucks on both Gibson and Teague. Thibodeau caped us out and turned a team with a lot of young talent into the 7th orders team in the League. Yet, I can't fault the Wolves too much for making the Butler deal. You could say it was worth a try. But after barely making the playoffs this past season, the Wolves should have pivoted and traded Butler to the Grizzlies for their #3 pick this summer and taken Doncic or Bamba as part of reloading around KAT. The point is to be patient and position the team to begin their acent just as the Warriors (and now Lakers) start their decline.

Nevertheless, you can't give up all hope. Wiggins could suddenly take the big jump we've all been hoping for and at least begin to approach becoming the top-10 player Flip told me he expected Wiggins to become. KAT is already a great offensive player AND rebounder and, unlike some, I'm confident his defense will approve. The key is Wiggins though. If he does develop into the player he has the potential to be, then the combination of Wiggins, KAT and Butler makes the Wolves a potential contender as soon as next season as well as 4 seasons down the road. And if Okogie becomes the next Donovan Mitchell, we won't even need Wiggins to reach his potential to be a contender in a couple years. It's no secret I don't like Thibodeau's coaching. But he's no Kurt Rambis so maybe he can adapt a bit while the players adapt more to him. Stranger things have happened.

In any event, while I share your perspective, I don't yet share your pessimism. I choose to be optimistic about this upcoming season unless and until the team brings me down. :)

[thedoper]

Manna from heaven

[Coolbreeze44]

I'm with Q in liking the fact we finally addressed our need for shooting. But for me this move overall is a big yawn. Sorry to be such a downer lately, but I can't see a pathway for this franchise to contend. As hard as it may be to accept, we need big changes, again.

Cool -- You and I have been on the same page for a while and remain so. While I like or draft and like the Tolliver signing, I don't see a path for this team to becoming a title contender. The Celtics and Sixers have shown us the path, which entails the patient, strategic accumulation and melding of young talent paired with a top-flight head coach cut out for the modern NBA.

The Warriors have about another 3-4 years before they start to decline and the Lakers will have a 3-4 year run with LeBron. So the window of opportunity lies about 3 to 4 years down the road. KAT and Tyus Jones will be 26 years old 4 years from now and Wiggins 27, all of them just entering their prime. This team should have continued to accumulate and develop young talent and paired that talent with a head coach who can get the most out of them. You already know my view of Thibodeau the head coach. In my view, Thibodeau the PBO jumped the gun last season, trading Dunn, LaVine and a #7 pick for Butler, and then spending big bucks on both Gibson and Teague. Thibodeau caped us out and turned a team with a lot of young talent into the 7th orders team in the League. Yet, I can't fault the Wolves too much for making the Butler deal. You could say it was worth a try. But after barely making the playoffs this past season, the Wolves should have pivoted and traded Butler to the Grizzlies for their #3 pick this summer and taken Doncic or Bamba as part of reloading around KAT. The point is to be patient and position the team to begin their acent just as the Warriors (and now Lakers) start their decline.

Nevertheless, you can't give up all hope. Wiggins could suddenly take the big jump we've all been hoping for and at least begin to approach becoming the top-10 player Flip told me he expected Wiggins to become. KAT is already a great offensive player AND rebounder and, unlike some, I'm confident his defense will approve. The key is Wiggins though. If he does develop into the player he has the potential to be, then the combination of Wiggins, KAT and Butler makes the Wolves a potential contender as soon as next season as well as 4 seasons down the road. And if Okogie becomes the next Donovan Mitchell, we won't even need Wiggins to reach his potential to be a contender in a couple years. It's no secret I don't like Thibodeau's coaching. But he's no Kurt Rambis so maybe he can adapt a bit while the players adapt more to him. Stranger things have happened.

In any event, while I share your perspective, I don't yet share your pessimism. I choose to be optimistic about this upcoming season unless and until the team brings me down. :)

I wish you were Glen, I think we would both be happier.

We need to trade Butler before it's too late. That just has to happen. Unless we can somehow talk the Spurs into trading us Leonard for Wiggy, Butler does us absolutely no good except to keep us in perpetual purgatory (4-8th in the conference). That is the worst place to be in the NBA. Jimmy's value is going down as soon as the season starts. I was optimistic before last season, I can't be now after seeing what we saw.

[Lipoli390]

Well, it's getting even harder to be optimistic. The Pelicans just signed Julius Randle for 2 years ast $9 million per year. Thibodeau doesn't think steps ahead and shows no imagination as PBO. He's a pedestrian in-the-box thinker. And his box doesn't extend very far beyond his former Bulls players. Who would you rather have - Gibson at $14 million for one more season or Julius Randle for the next two seasons at $9 million per year? The answer should be an easy one - Julius Randle for one more year and less annual money against the luxury tax. But Thibodeau failed to put the Wolves in a position to take advantage of such a contingency either via free agency or via a sign-and-trade with the Lakers. Once the Lakers signed LeBron, even I knew that they weren't going to keep Randle. Thibodeau should have anticipated and planned for that possibility. But as someone who didn't play for Thibodeau with the Bulls, I suppose he wasn't foremost on Thibodeau's mind.

[Monster]

Personally I don't buy that Belly was so much more defensively versatile than Tolliver is. The idea Tolliver can't play any SF when Belly can I don't see it. There are so many Wes johnson type wings on various teams that you can get away with playing anyone that can basically move their feet well enough to make sure those guys don't hit a 3. Tolliver still moves well enough to provide an option there. Belly did well least season at that spot and Tolliver is less of an option but I think he is also a guy I yhis Is plenty versatile to put in all kinds of matchups. Jon K said on his latest podcast (before Tolliver signed) he thinks Thins is open to and possibly looking at more switching. Tolliver fits that well enough.

I'm certainly not saying we don't need another option at SF because we do. I'd be pretty surprised if that not the next player that we sign for a vet min deal. I'm staying optimistic we can get someone plenty decent in one way or another.

[Lipoli390]

Personally I don't buy that Belly was so much more defensively versatile than Tolliver is. The idea Tolliver can't play any SF when Belly can I don't see it. There are so many Wes johnson type wings on various teams that you can get away with playing anyone that can basically move their feet well enough to make sure those guys don't hit a 3. Tolliver still moves well enough to provide an option there. Belly did well least season at that spot and Tolliver is less of an option but I think he is also a guy I yhis Is plenty versatile to put in all kinds of matchups. Jon K said on his latest podcast (before Tolliver signed) he thinks Thins is open to and possibly looking at more switching. Tolliver fits that well enough.

I'm certainly not saying we don't need another option at SF because we do. I'd be pretty surprised if that not the next player that we sign for a vet min deal. I'm staying optimistic we can get someone plenty decent in one way or another.

We just disagree on Tolliver's versatility. He wasn't a SF in his prime and he's certainly not one now at his age. Belly was an excellent ballhandler and passer -- almost a point forward is some ways, yet he had the size and rebounding accuman to play the PF position. Although ye wasn't a great defender, he could defend both positions. Thibs himself often praised Belly's defense. Thibs really wanted Belly back. The reason Belly's gone is because Belly didn't want to be here. Watch. You'll see Belly sign elsewhere for no more than we just paid Tolliver.

[Monster]

Personally I don't buy that Belly was so much more defensively versatile than Tolliver is. The idea Tolliver can't play any SF when Belly can I don't see it. There are so many Wes johnson type wings on various teams that you can get away with playing anyone that can basically move their feet well enough to make sure those guys don't hit a 3. Tolliver still moves well enough to provide an option there. Belly did well least season at that spot and Tolliver is less of an option but I think he is also a guy I yhis Is plenty versatile to put in all kinds of matchups. Jon K said on his latest podcast (before Tolliver signed) he thinks Thins is open to and possibly looking at more switching. Tolliver fits that well enough.

I'm certainly not saying we don't need another option at SF because we do. I'd be pretty surprised if that not the next player that we sign for a vet min deal. I'm staying optimistic we can get someone plenty decent in one way or another.

We just disagree on Tolliver's versatility. He wasn't a SF in his prime and he's certainly not one now at his age. Belly was an excellent ballhandler and passer -- almost a point forward is some ways, yet he had the size and rebounding accuman to play the PF position. Although ye wasn't a great defender, he could defend both positions. Thibs himself often praised Belly's defense. Thibs really wanted Belly back. The reason Belly's gone is because Belly didn't want to be here. Watch. You'll see Belly sign elsewhere for no more than we just paid Tolliver.

Tolliver is more of an Ellington type of guy that can spot up and hit and move the ball. As one poster outlined well some of Belly's playmaking sometimes kinda paralyzed him from doing something. It's fine if we disagree though but ultimately I still think Tolliver is more of a sure thing than Belly and Belly has some more versatility and upside. Will he get more money? Idk if they are in the same range to me it doesn't matter that much. I'll say i wish we were talking about someone better for what we paid Tolliver but he fits so much what this team needs on and off the floor I'll take it. I do think Belly not being absolutely dying to come back was a factor. I wish him well. You have to admit though he was a bit of a tease.

[thedoper]

I guess Butler and Wiggins are just going to play 48 minutes. Am I crazy or wasn't a Tolliver already on this team back when we were horrible? I wasn't really looking to go back to those years personally. Man Okogie better be good.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

There is very rarely an obvious and easily attainable path for a smaller market team to become a contender. You need a lot of luck on your side and ours all resides in Towns and Wiggins. We don't get to sign the Durant's of the world so you build as best you can and hope you luck your way there. Every year luck plays a major role in who wins the title. Even GS has needed a lot of it and they have 4 all-stars. CP3 gets hurt this year of they probably get knocked out in the CF. Sign KD the year after they lose the title because Steph had a bum knee. Their first title was through a conference that was just riddled with injuries and nobody at 100% to try to beat them. It takes a lot of luck and the path is very rarely light up and straight to the title. You should just enjoy good basketball and hope you catch the breaks you need to win a title.