Jimmy Butler set to meet with Thibs and Layden Monday to have honest discussion about future

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Might as well just invite Woj to the meeting too. He'll tell us all about it anyway, perhaps even before it happens!

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Putting player beef on Thibs is absurd. These are grown men. Thibs isn't their babysitter. He's doing what he's supposed to in meeting with a franchise player before a contract year. At the end of the day this team just has too much talent to blow it up before games are played. Get everyone in the building. Play some basketball. This is all blowing up because there's nothing else going on.

Khans, as much you might feel this way, the fact remains that yes, even for adult professionals, the head coach can have a profound effect on team chemistry and dealing with the various personalities on the squad. I'd love it if everyone just manned up and stopped acting aloof (Wiggins), immature (KAT), or like an a-hole (Jimmy). The coach has some level of responsibility here, like it or not.

We have also heard of the dissatisfaction of players like Crawford, Bjelly, and even Tyus Jones. Now perhaps we don't give a crap about Crawford, but when there is this much "noise" around the franchise, it isn't just because this is the slow time of year....

[KG4Ever]

Assuming

I don't know how this can be a bad thing, it is good to have the conversation before training camp starts. But even if Butler says he wants out we are not going to get a ton of value back. For one Thibs would be firing himself if he trades Butler for young assets, and secondly Thibs would have to trade Thibs for players that can keep us competitive to try and keep his job.

Players like Barnes, Porter, Tobais Harris might be on the table. But I can't see us getting any young value for Butler because Thibs would be firing himself with trading Butler.

In the end if Kat and Wiggins make the necessary steps in their game we will be fine if not, the rebuild starts next year.

Thibs is as good as gone. Taylor hates him and he just needs to figure out the timing. My guess is that he gets stripped of his GM duties first so that someone other than Thibs can trade Jimmy. Maybe Thibs gets to coach another season or half a season, but his time is done soon. Glenn is pissed.

What proof do we have that he is pissed at thibs. He didn't fire him. And that is terrible ownership to have a plan to let a guy draft and go through free agency just to strip him of his duties when the season starts.

If we start out bad I believe thibs gets fired but it is terrible for Glenn to have the big decision of trading butler to an interim GM who will be there for a half of a season

You have to start connecting dots and its pretty clear that Glenn doesn't like Thibs. Of course, he won't say it publicly but read between the lines and its quite clear. Glen felt he couldnt' fire Thibs yet after making the playoffs for the first time in more than a decade. But if we learn this week that Butler is just a rental, Glen will have good public reason to fire him at least as GM. The rumors of dissension in the organization and among players are too persistent and uncontroverted to not be believable and pretty much all of the dissension is either attributable to Thibs or Butler who Thibs traded away a lot of young talent for.

You are making a lot of assumptions that fit the narrative of what your current thoughts are about thibs.

If Glenn did not like thibs and didn't think he was the guy for this team, he should of fired him. If he didn't fire him because how it would look to the public eye, that is pathetic and a terrible owner. Kahn did the same thing when he drafted wes over George because he was afraid of the media backlash.

In the end if Glenn doesn't think thibs can "fix" the situation of the wolves and he kept him anyways that is so much more detrimental than anything thibs could do.

I still believe even if Jimmy leaves the wolves are in a better spot today then they where even thibs took the job. I mean we would be a non playoff team in the lux tax the only one elite player on Kat and multiple big contracts for guys that haven't proved it.

I don't know how this can be a bad thing, it is good to have the conversation before training camp starts. But even if Butler says he wants out we are not going to get a ton of value back. For one Thibs would be firing himself if he trades Butler for young assets, and secondly Thibs would have to trade Thibs for players that can keep us competitive to try and keep his job.

Players like Barnes, Porter, Tobais Harris might be on the table. But I can't see us getting any young value for Butler because Thibs would be firing himself with trading Butler.

In the end if Kat and Wiggins make the necessary steps in their game we will be fine if not, the rebuild starts next year.

Thibs is as good as gone. Taylor hates him and he just needs to figure out the timing. My guess is that he gets stripped of his GM duties first so that someone other than Thibs can trade Jimmy. Maybe Thibs gets to coach another season or half a season, but his time is done soon. Glenn is pissed.

What proof do we have that he is pissed at thibs. He didn't fire him. And that is terrible ownership to have a plan to let a guy draft and go through free agency just to strip him of his duties when the season starts.

If we start out bad I believe thibs gets fired but it is terrible for Glenn to have the big decision of trading butler to an interim GM who will be there for a half of a season

You have to start connecting dots and its pretty clear that Glenn doesn't like Thibs. Of course, he won't say it publicly but read between the lines and its quite clear. Glen felt he couldnt' fire Thibs yet after making the playoffs for the first time in more than a decade. But if we learn this week that Butler is just a rental, Glen will have good public reason to fire him at least as GM. The rumors of dissension in the organization and among players are too persistent and uncontroverted to not be believable and pretty much all of the dissension is either attributable to Thibs or Butler who Thibs traded away a lot of young talent for.

You are making a lot of assumptions that fit the narrative of what your current thoughts are about thibs.

If Glenn did not like thibs and didn't think he was the guy for this team, he should of fired him. If he didn't fire him because how it would look to the public eye, that is pathetic and a terrible owner. Kahn did the same thing when he drafted wes over George because he was afraid of the media backlash.

In the end if Glenn doesn't think thibs can "fix" the situation of the wolves and he kept him anyways that is so much more detrimental than anything thibs could do.

I still believe even if Jimmy leaves the wolves are in a better spot today then they where even thibs took the job. I mean we would be a non playoff team in the lux tax the only one elite player on Kat and multiple big contracts for guys that haven't proved it.

Your are Making MANY ASSUMPTIONS to fit your Narrative that we are better off with Thibs. I completely disagree. Without Thibs, I believe our young players are better developed and we have a better roster. Thibs was horrible in personnel moves, developing players, terrible in distributing minutes, and making it joyless to play for the Wolves.

[kekgeek]

Assuming

I don't know how this can be a bad thing, it is good to have the conversation before training camp starts. But even if Butler says he wants out we are not going to get a ton of value back. For one Thibs would be firing himself if he trades Butler for young assets, and secondly Thibs would have to trade Thibs for players that can keep us competitive to try and keep his job.

Players like Barnes, Porter, Tobais Harris might be on the table. But I can't see us getting any young value for Butler because Thibs would be firing himself with trading Butler.

In the end if Kat and Wiggins make the necessary steps in their game we will be fine if not, the rebuild starts next year.

Thibs is as good as gone. Taylor hates him and he just needs to figure out the timing. My guess is that he gets stripped of his GM duties first so that someone other than Thibs can trade Jimmy. Maybe Thibs gets to coach another season or half a season, but his time is done soon. Glenn is pissed.

What proof do we have that he is pissed at thibs. He didn't fire him. And that is terrible ownership to have a plan to let a guy draft and go through free agency just to strip him of his duties when the season starts.

If we start out bad I believe thibs gets fired but it is terrible for Glenn to have the big decision of trading butler to an interim GM who will be there for a half of a season

You have to start connecting dots and its pretty clear that Glenn doesn't like Thibs. Of course, he won't say it publicly but read between the lines and its quite clear. Glen felt he couldnt' fire Thibs yet after making the playoffs for the first time in more than a decade. But if we learn this week that Butler is just a rental, Glen will have good public reason to fire him at least as GM. The rumors of dissension in the organization and among players are too persistent and uncontroverted to not be believable and pretty much all of the dissension is either attributable to Thibs or Butler who Thibs traded away a lot of young talent for.

You are making a lot of assumptions that fit the narrative of what your current thoughts are about thibs.

If Glenn did not like thibs and didn't think he was the guy for this team, he should of fired him. If he didn't fire him because how it would look to the public eye, that is pathetic and a terrible owner. Kahn did the same thing when he drafted wes over George because he was afraid of the media backlash.

In the end if Glenn doesn't think thibs can "fix" the situation of the wolves and he kept him anyways that is so much more detrimental than anything thibs could do.

I still believe even if Jimmy leaves the wolves are in a better spot today then they where even thibs took the job. I mean we would be a non playoff team in the lux tax the only one elite player on Kat and multiple big contracts for guys that haven't proved it.

I don't know how this can be a bad thing, it is good to have the conversation before training camp starts. But even if Butler says he wants out we are not going to get a ton of value back. For one Thibs would be firing himself if he trades Butler for young assets, and secondly Thibs would have to trade Thibs for players that can keep us competitive to try and keep his job.

Players like Barnes, Porter, Tobais Harris might be on the table. But I can't see us getting any young value for Butler because Thibs would be firing himself with trading Butler.

In the end if Kat and Wiggins make the necessary steps in their game we will be fine if not, the rebuild starts next year.

Thibs is as good as gone. Taylor hates him and he just needs to figure out the timing. My guess is that he gets stripped of his GM duties first so that someone other than Thibs can trade Jimmy. Maybe Thibs gets to coach another season or half a season, but his time is done soon. Glenn is pissed.

What proof do we have that he is pissed at thibs. He didn't fire him. And that is terrible ownership to have a plan to let a guy draft and go through free agency just to strip him of his duties when the season starts.

If we start out bad I believe thibs gets fired but it is terrible for Glenn to have the big decision of trading butler to an interim GM who will be there for a half of a season

You have to start connecting dots and its pretty clear that Glenn doesn't like Thibs. Of course, he won't say it publicly but read between the lines and its quite clear. Glen felt he couldnt' fire Thibs yet after making the playoffs for the first time in more than a decade. But if we learn this week that Butler is just a rental, Glen will have good public reason to fire him at least as GM. The rumors of dissension in the organization and among players are too persistent and uncontroverted to not be believable and pretty much all of the dissension is either attributable to Thibs or Butler who Thibs traded away a lot of young talent for.

You are making a lot of assumptions that fit the narrative of what your current thoughts are about thibs.

If Glenn did not like thibs and didn't think he was the guy for this team, he should of fired him. If he didn't fire him because how it would look to the public eye, that is pathetic and a terrible owner. Kahn did the same thing when he drafted wes over George because he was afraid of the media backlash.

In the end if Glenn doesn't think thibs can "fix" the situation of the wolves and he kept him anyways that is so much more detrimental than anything thibs could do.

I still believe even if Jimmy leaves the wolves are in a better spot today then they where even thibs took the job. I mean we would be a non playoff team in the lux tax the only one elite player on Kat and multiple big contracts for guys that haven't proved it.

Your are Making MANY ASSUMPTIONS to fit your Narrative that we are better off with Thibs. I completely disagree. Without Thibs, I believe our young players are better developed and we have a better roster. Thibs was horrible in personnel moves, developing players, terrible in distributing minutes, and making it joyless to play for the Wolves.

Im not saying Thibs is perfect there is a lot of things that he can get better at. I am saying you are assuming Glenn hates Thibs because you hate Thibs. And if Glenn hates Thibs Glenn should of fired Thibs and if he does hate Thibs and doesn't believe in Thibs that is a terrible owner to keep him around.

You are also making massive assumptions that the young guys would have developed differently under a different head coach. When Bazz goes to a different team and sucks and might be out of the league. Payne got a two-way contract and now is out of the league. Dunn played better in his 2nd year but his a bottom 5 starting PG in the league and is fighting with his 2nd head coach who is totally different in personality wise. Lavine just had his worst year since his rookie year and shot worse than Wiggins and is worse at defense (To be fair he was coming off ACL injury so that could change).

There is no evidence that those players would have developed differently under a different head coach because when they left us they have not been good in their other spots. Thibs had a great reputation of developing young players with the Bulls (Noah, Gibson, Rose, Butler, etc...). Tyus has developed nicely under Thibs, how much we complain about KAT, he just had his best year in terms of WS, OWS, DWS, OPM, DPM. Dieng had his best year under Thibs in 2016, Patton got hurt, we'll see about Okogie and KBD.

Thibs has also brought in the second best player in franchise history, added 2 of the top 5 free agents in franchise history. Yes there is so much he could do. He is probably a big part to the toxic enviorment that is reported. Even if he isn't it is his responsiblity to change that enviorment. But I just massively disagree with you statement that Glenn hates Thibs and that he will be striped of his duties before the season just to trade Butler.

[TAFKASP]

^^^ I'm not going to quote kekgeek1's post because it's already a mile long! But to respond, I don't think the development, or lack thereof, is a Thibs issue. Yes he is ultimately responsible, but I honestly see two unbelievably physically gifted players in KAT and Wig, who also don't have the strong mentality to make it at the NBA level. Neither strike me as stupid, but both strike me as soft when it comes to doing the difficult things that make for championship plays. I don't believe anybody can coach them into being dogged players. KG was a pain in the ass personality, but he is spot on when he said you cannot teach dog, you have it, or you don't.

All that said, I also understand not wanting to play for the annoying little penguin looking shithead of a coach!

[Lipoli390]

Putting player beef on Thibs is absurd. These are grown men. Thibs isn't their babysitter. He's doing what he's supposed to in meeting with a franchise player before a contract year. At the end of the day this team just has too much talent to blow it up before games are played. Get everyone in the building. Play some basketball. This is all blowing up because there's nothing else going on.

Khans, as much you might feel this way, the fact remains that yes, even for adult professionals, the head coach can have a profound effect on team chemistry and dealing with the various personalities on the squad. I'd love it if everyone just manned up and stopped acting aloof (Wiggins), immature (KAT), or like an a-hole (Jimmy). The coach has some level of responsibility here, like it or not.

We have also heard of the dissatisfaction of players like Crawford, Bjelly, and even Tyus Jones. Now perhaps we don't give a crap about Crawford, but when there is this much "noise" around the franchise, it isn't just because this is the slow time of year....

Well said, Q. It's interesting to see some people readily dismiss the importance and impact of leadership in a professional organization when it comes to Thibodeau. People in their 30s, 40s and 50s leave jobs because of bad managers and organizations succeed or fail based on the quality of management. And a huge part of any manager's success leading an organization is the atmoshere that manager creates. I worked for a company that turned around on a dime when they replaced their regional VP. While making some personnel and strategic changes, the new VP mainly changed the atmosphere and attitude in the organization. He was the sort of guy you loved and you'd go the extra mile for him. He was demanding, but he motivated in a positive way. He had a great sense of humor, could relate to everyone, exuded competence and made you like coming to work.

In the case of the Wolves, we're talking about professional athletes in their 20s who often have big egos and we're also talking about a sport -- a very team-oriented one, which relies more than most professions on close cooperation among teammates as well as emotion and attitude. So the quality of leadership and the atmosphere that leadership creates matters in all professional organizations, but especially in profession team sports like basketball.

Thibodeau was fired by the Bulls because of his inability to get along internally with those above him in the organization and the fact that he wore thin on a number of his players. There's a ton of evidence that same thing is happening here -- something I predicted in my post in the "Mitchell not Returning thread." The Wolves organization is in a bad place right now. And I don't see things turning around until Thibs is replaced in both his roles. Until now I thought we could wait it out until next summer and hope the team has a great season that causes things to settle down. But I no longer see that as a prudent viable path for this organization. Butler needs to meet with our front office and KAT is refusing to sign an extension until the Butler thing is worked out. That's where we're at. That's not where this organization should be.

[Monster]

Putting player beef on Thibs is absurd. These are grown men. Thibs isn't their babysitter. He's doing what he's supposed to in meeting with a franchise player before a contract year. At the end of the day this team just has too much talent to blow it up before games are played. Get everyone in the building. Play some basketball. This is all blowing up because there's nothing else going on.

Khans, as much you might feel this way, the fact remains that yes, even for adult professionals, the head coach can have a profound effect on team chemistry and dealing with the various personalities on the squad. I'd love it if everyone just manned up and stopped acting aloof (Wiggins), immature (KAT), or like an a-hole (Jimmy). The coach has some level of responsibility here, like it or not.

We have also heard of the dissatisfaction of players like Crawford, Bjelly, and even Tyus Jones. Now perhaps we don't give a crap about Crawford, but when there is this much "noise" around the franchise, it isn't just because this is the slow time of year....

Well said, Q. It's interesting to see some people readily dismiss the importance and impact of leadership in a professional organization when it comes to Thibodeau. People in their 30s, 40s and 50s leave jobs because of bad managers and organizations succeed or fail based on the quality of management. And a huge part of any manager's success leading an organization is the atmoshere that manager creates. I worked for a company that turned around on a dime when they replaced their regional VP. While making some personnel and strategic changes, the new VP mainly changed the atmosphere and attitude in the organization. He was the sort of guy you loved and you'd go the extra mile for him. He was demanding, but he motivated in a positive way. He had a great sense of humor, could relate to everyone, exuded competence and made you like coming to work.

In the case of the Wolves, we're talking about professional athletes in their 20s who often have big egos and we're also talking about a sport -- a very team-oriented one, which relies more than most professions on close cooperation among teammates as well as emotion and attitude. So the quality of leadership and the atmosphere that leadership creates matters in all professional organizations, but especially in profession team sports like basketball.

Thibodeau was fired by the Bulls because of his inability to get along internally with those above him in the organization and the fact that he wore thin on a number of his players. There's a ton of evidence that same thing is happening here -- something I predicted in my post in the "Mitchell not Returning thread." The Wolves organization is in a bad place right now. And I don't see things turning around until Thibs is replaced in both his roles. Until now I thought we could wait it out until next summer and hope the team has a great season that causes things to settle down. But I no longer see that as a prudent viable path for this organization. Butler needs to meet with our front office and KAT is refusing to sign an extension until the Butler thing is worked out. That's where we're at. That's not where this organization should be.

Lip this a good post. I think some people end up swinging the pendulum the other direction when it comes to the Thibs blame game. I don't think anyone is just ignoring stuff. Some of the posts make the guy sound like the devil. Maybe everything he has done sucks but I don't that it's THAT bad. It's why some people think posters on this board are really invested in Thibs. I don't think too many people are but it's just constant Thibs sucks posts and he gets zero benefit of the doubt at times. I'm not suggesting he isn't deserving of the negative stuff but sometimes it just seems like too much.

Look these are troubling times but Butler the team's best player who is a FA is meeting with his former old coach and the chief decision maker for the Wolves. It's news but...it also makes complete sense for them to sit down even if things were all happy butterflies and rainbows.

[thedoper]

I'm still on the side that the sky is far from falling in this issue. Our team is so much better off than it was and feel it's a bit silly to expect excellence overnight. Every former Bull has moved us in a better direction on the court. There are many teams that have endured far worse off it. The former Bulls execs Thibs was working with are far from geniuses. I had trepidation about the dual role, still do. But that is square on the Mankato doofus. I still think the best long term solution is to move Thibs upstairs and find a young coach to bridge the gap and grow with the young core. But the positives on the court moving forward into this year far outweigh these silly "news stories". Just win, and for the players, just improve. It's not rocket science.

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

https://streamable.com/nitqk

Shams basically confirms its a Butler vs KAT issue more than anything else. And that is indeed the hold up on KAT signing that extension.

We need a phil jackson type at the helm, someone who can manage personalities.

[thedoper]

Do the Wizards want to start over? We should sign up for 4 years of salary cap hell.

Teague and Butler for Porter and Wall

They get out of their salary situation and we become and immensely talented young team and finally make the old bastard put some money back into this team. Go Wolves. If Butler really has a beef the guy is a total idiot BTW. I haven't seen him shoot right handed in a video all summer.