mrhockey89 wrote:Forgive me if this has been talked about, but I was listening to the Jalen & Jacoby podcast the other day about the Tibs hire, and Jalen Rose brought up that he thinks the Wolves will make a run at Jimmy Butler. Suggesting that Butler is at odds with the organization now, has played well under Tibs, would instantly improve the Wolves, and suggested the Wolves trade Zach LaVine + #5 for Jimmy Butler.
I think it's an interesting trade scenario, and one I'd likely pull the trigger on. But with Butler being 26? years old, that also gives me a bit of pause.
Thought I'd throw this out there!
I wouldn't trade both LaVine and the Pick. But I'd trade them our pick plus Pek's $12M/year contract for Butler. Then deal one of LaVine or Bazz in a separate trade.
c'mon man...the Bulls are not trading an All-Star SG in his early prime for a bad contract+the #5 pick in the draft. The Bullls would hang up the phone faster than they picked it up.
Right. An All-Star in his prime has never been traded for a top lotto pick plus some trash. Ever. Oh wait....how did that Kevin Love for Andrew Wiggins and Anthony Bennett (bad contract) go again?
Comparing a No. 5 pick and a $12M bad contract to a No. 1 pick and a $5M contract might not be good math on your part... And I don't understand why so smug about it either considering it's a terrible offer for Chicago and one that would get turned down faster than you can say Nikola.
First of all - nobody is smug. He threw out an idea and I threw out one as well. Neither is likely to happen. But one is no more crazy than the other. Second, while I really appreciate your taking the time to give me the math lesson, I'm sure you are sharp enough to realize other pieces can be added to make things work (as was done in the Love trade). And finally, if the deal is not favorable or at a minimum equal - then you don't do it - period. This idea of sending both a top five pick and a promising young (and cheap) player in LaVine would not seem "fair" unless you are a Bulls fan.
Carlos, let me ask you this...
Do you think either the #5 pick or Zach LaVine will ever get to the level of Jimmy Butler? If the answer is no, then I think you take the trade. Keep in mind Jimmy Butlers is a triple double threat on offense that is an elite defender too.
mrhockey89 wrote:Forgive me if this has been talked about, but I was listening to the Jalen & Jacoby podcast the other day about the Tibs hire, and Jalen Rose brought up that he thinks the Wolves will make a run at Jimmy Butler. Suggesting that Butler is at odds with the organization now, has played well under Tibs, would instantly improve the Wolves, and suggested the Wolves trade Zach LaVine + #5 for Jimmy Butler.
I think it's an interesting trade scenario, and one I'd likely pull the trigger on. But with Butler being 26? years old, that also gives me a bit of pause.
Thought I'd throw this out there!
I wouldn't trade both LaVine and the Pick. But I'd trade them our pick plus Pek's $12M/year contract for Butler. Then deal one of LaVine or Bazz in a separate trade.
c'mon man...the Bulls are not trading an All-Star SG in his early prime for a bad contract+the #5 pick in the draft. The Bullls would hang up the phone faster than they picked it up.
Right. An All-Star in his prime has never been traded for a top lotto pick plus some trash. Ever. Oh wait....how did that Kevin Love for Andrew Wiggins and Anthony Bennett (bad contract) go again?
Not comparable situations at all. And here's why:
#1: Wiggins was the #1 pick in a strong top heavy draft, and was compared to some huge names coming out. This is considered a 2 player draft, so the #5 pick is not even reasonably equivalent to the #1-2 pick in this draft in terms of value in a trade.
#2: Butler's a more valuable piece than Kevin Love when it comes to building a championship team. He's a 2 way player.
#3: Bennett's contract was a LOT better than Pek's. Bennett still had some upside to him and there was hope he could stay healthy and build a career. At this point, we're lucky to get 20 games out of Pek, and it's at double the salary.
Again, not comparable situations at all.
It's absolutely comparable. Love was considered one of the top players in the entire NBA at the time of the trade. He was coming off a historic year stat wise. To say Butler is a more valuable piece than Love (at that time) would be a stretch.
Yes - Bennett's contract was better than Pek's. Peks' @12M and Bennett was $5M with I think $7M coming due the following year. So we're off by $5M in my example. The point was Cleveland obviously wanted to dump AB and that money in the deal..
And finally, we won't know what this year's draft is until it happens. Right now some are saying it's a one or two person draft. That can change in a hurry. And we still don't even now if we are picking #1 or #6.
Do you think either the #5 pick or Zach LaVine will ever get to the level of Jimmy Butler? If the answer is no, then I think you take the trade. Keep in mind Jimmy Butlers is a triple double threat on offense that is an elite defender too.
Butler would be a great get. He's locked up for a long time and just entering his prime. I don't know what he'd command for a trade on the open market. But IMHO, LaVine plus our pick is too much. And the reason is I don't think we need that star power right now. I'd be perfectly content waiting a year to see how LaVine develops and/or this year's draft pick.
Others can disagree and that's fine. That's just my opinion. And to answer your question, I have no idea how good LaVine can be. Keep in mind he's spent the last two years under two different coaches - both of which had him playing a lot at PG. My preference would be to see what he can do exclusively at SG and under Thibbs coaching. I'd prefer to "hold" for now.
Even half the people on this very board questioned whether Love could be a top 2 player on a championship level team or if he was just a stat stuffer. Even when he's on a team with LeBron James it's still extremely questionable if he can win a championship. And let's even say Butler isn't as good as Love, the #1 pick in a good top heavy draft is far more valuable than the #5 pick in a 2 player draft. (I think most people would agree that Butler's more likely to be on a championship team than Love though, all other things equal, simply because he's a 2 way player while Love is a 1 way player who has 1 defensive strength, rebounding).
On Bennett, we HAD to take Bennett to make salaries match. You're just trying to dump Pek because he's a bad contract. There's a difference in that as well.
Basically, you're suggesting the #5 pick in a 2 player draft, combined with a negative asset, for an All-Star SG in his prime, and thinking Chicago should think about that. And I'm saying I think that's nuts. In fact, even if it was #5 alone, it'd be nuts. Maybe if Butler were 30 years old they'd consider it. LaVine has value and I'm not looking to trade him, but I think you're severely underrating Jimmy Butler.
I agree that we'd wait until the lottery is complete before making any offers...get a top 2 pick and the Wolves would balk at it, I agree.
Carlos, my intent wasn't to bash you for not wanting to do the trade I suggested, so I apologize if I came off that way. I just think that Pek+#5 would be an insult to the Bulls is all.
Pekovic has $23.7M left on his contract. Bennett had about $11M left on his contract when he was dealt.
Again, the math...
I'm not even in favor of trading LaVine and the No. 5 pick, first of all.
Second of all, you're trying to compare a deal of No. 5 pick -- in a widely-viewed weak draft class -- and an injury prone 30-year old center with two-years, $23.7M left on his contract to a deal centered around the No. 1 pick in the draft -- a strong draft -- and a 21-year old with roughly $11M left on his deal. That's comparing a horse to a dog, or cheesecake to an oatmeal cream pie. It's not the same and shouldn't even be compared. I don't understand why you think it's even remotely close to the same value.
mrhockey89 wrote:Even half the people on this very board questioned whether Love could be a top 2 player on a championship level team or if he was just a stat stuffer. Even when he's on a team with LeBron James it's still extremely questionable if he can win a championship. And let's even say Butler isn't as good as Love, the #1 pick in a good top heavy draft is far more valuable than the #5 pick in a 2 player draft. (I think most people would agree that Butler's more likely to be on a championship team than Love though, all other things equal, simply because he's a 2 way player while Love is a 1 way player who has 1 defensive strength, rebounding).
On Bennett, we HAD to take Bennett to make salaries match. You're just trying to dump Pek because he's a bad contract. There's a difference in that as well.
Basically, you're suggesting the #5 pick in a 2 player draft, combined with a negative asset, for an All-Star SG in his prime, and thinking Chicago should think about that. And I'm saying I think that's nuts. In fact, even if it was #5 alone, it'd be nuts. Maybe if Butler were 30 years old they'd consider it. LaVine has value and I'm not looking to trade him, but I think you're severely underrating Jimmy Butler.
I agree that we'd wait until the lottery is complete before making any offers...get a top 2 pick and the Wolves would balk at it, I agree.
mrhockey89 wrote:Carlos, my intent wasn't to bash you for not wanting to do the trade I suggested, so I apologize if I came off that way. I just think that Pek+#5 would be an insult to the Bulls is all.
Hockey - we're cool. I think LaVine plus a top five pick (we don't know if it's #1 or #6) is too much. Agree to disagree. Just don't call me nuts or I'll have to kick you in yours! :-)
mrhockey89 wrote:Even half the people on this very board questioned whether Love could be a top 2 player on a championship level team or if he was just a stat stuffer. Even when he's on a team with LeBron James it's still extremely questionable if he can win a championship. And let's even say Butler isn't as good as Love, the #1 pick in a good top heavy draft is far more valuable than the #5 pick in a 2 player draft. (I think most people would agree that Butler's more likely to be on a championship team than Love though, all other things equal, simply because he's a 2 way player while Love is a 1 way player who has 1 defensive strength, rebounding).
On Bennett, we HAD to take Bennett to make salaries match. You're just trying to dump Pek because he's a bad contract. There's a difference in that as well.
Basically, you're suggesting the #5 pick in a 2 player draft, combined with a negative asset, for an All-Star SG in his prime, and thinking Chicago should think about that. And I'm saying I think that's nuts. In fact, even if it was #5 alone, it'd be nuts. Maybe if Butler were 30 years old they'd consider it. LaVine has value and I'm not looking to trade him, but I think you're severely underrating Jimmy Butler.
I agree that we'd wait until the lottery is complete before making any offers...get a top 2 pick and the Wolves would balk at it, I agree.
mrhockey89 wrote:Carlos, my intent wasn't to bash you for not wanting to do the trade I suggested, so I apologize if I came off that way. I just think that Pek+#5 would be an insult to the Bulls is all.
Hockey - we're cool. I think LaVine plus a top five pick (we don't know if it's #1 or #6) is too much. Agree to disagree. Just don't call me nuts or I'll have to kick you in yours! :-)
I wouldn't trade the pick unless the lottery was completed (May) and the pick was in the 5-7 range (likely), unless it was top 3 protected.
Butler is awesome, but I have three concerns with a trade involving LaVine:
1) Butler is a little redundant with Wiggins - better defender, but ultimately worse offensively. It's been a bit of a slog for Butler to get to the level he's at offensively, yet Wiggins is already at that level in Year 2. And defensively, you have to believe Thibs will coach Wiggins up to be the defender many of us hoped he could become.
2) Butler's 3-point shot, like Wiggins, is a little inconsistent. LaVine on the other hand appears to be trending toward being one of the elite shooters in the NBA. It's his jump shot more than his dunking (which he hardly ever does in half court sets anyway) that will be his calling card. That's really important playing next to Wiggins and Rubio. Watching LaVine effortlessly drain corner jumpers in the second half of the season was a sight to behold given our sordid history as a 3-point shooting team!
3) When was the last time Butler played more than 67 games?
I like Butler, but I don't see how he complements the current roster. And I also think he sees himself as an alpha dog #1 player. That would create tension on a team with KAT and Wiggins, two guys whose personalities really complement each other well and need the space to begin asserting themselves more and more as the future leaders of the team.
I don't think any of these other ideas thrown out there, from Horford, to Favors, to Deng, etc. really crowd out the Wiggins/KAT duo. Butler would disrupt the pecking order in a way I'm not sure works in the long run.
Camden wrote:Pekovic has $23.7M left on his contract. Bennett had about $11M left on his contract when he was dealt.
Again, the math...
I'm not even in favor of trading LaVine and the No. 5 pick, first of all.
Second of all, you're trying to compare a deal of No. 5 pick -- in a widely-viewed weak draft class -- and an injury prone 30-year old center with two-years, $23.7M left on his contract to a deal centered around the No. 1 pick in the draft -- a strong draft -- and a 21-year old with roughly $11M left on his deal. That's comparing a horse to a dog, or cheesecake to an oatmeal cream pie. It's not the same and shouldn't even be compared. I don't understand why you think it's even remotely close to the same value.
Again, we don't know if our pick is #1 or #6. And again, I wouldn't say this only a two person draft yet. They were saying the same thing last year at this time and now that Porzingis kid is looking like a nice player in addition to Towns/Okafor. Let's see how things start changing as we get closer. It's my opinion that LaVine plus our pick would be too much to give for Butler at this time.
And lastly, I'm 100% confident you wouldn't speak to me in person the same way you are typing. That's "Old Cam" coming back. Not a shock. But I'm pretty sure once you sober up and think about it tomorrow morning - you'll better understand the comparison I was making. We need to have a Enjin Forum get together so I can put a face to some of you. Are you local? Would love to meet up for that math lesson....
