The Rage Monster wrote:
These discussions would be so much better if you didn't make up facts like this. You do realize Towns was only 5th in FGA/game and 6th in min/game right? If that's your idea of a first option then apparently JR Smith and Shaun Livingston are the top options during the finals...I'm glad you mentioned Kaminsky, isn't he the slow guy who Towns couldn't defend in the final four?
We all agree Towns could turn out to be a great player but let's not pretend his college career was anything more than it actually was.
Towns had still highest usage of all Kentucky players this season and most points per 40 minutes. So when he was on floor, he was most of the time at least pretty close to first option. Since usage was pretty even distributed between Kentucky players (6 players with major share of minutes had USG between 20.8 and 23.7. Only WCS and Ulis from players getting minutes had clearly lower usage) it is pretty clear that players getting most minutes have most FG attempts.
The Rage Monster wrote:
These discussions would be so much better if you didn't make up facts like this. You do realize Towns was only 5th in FGA/game and 6th in min/game right? If that's your idea of a first option then apparently JR Smith and Shaun Livingston are the top options during the finals...I'm glad you mentioned Kaminsky, isn't he the slow guy who Towns couldn't defend in the final four?
We all agree Towns could turn out to be a great player but let's not pretend his college career was anything more than it actually was.
Towns had still highest usage of all Kentucky players this season and most points per 40 minutes. So when he was on floor, he was most of the time at least pretty close to first option. Since usage was pretty even distributed between Kentucky players (6 players with major share of minutes had USG between 20.8 and 23.7. Only WCS and Ulis from players getting minutes had clearly lower usage) it is pretty clear that players getting most minutes have most FG attempts.
The Rage Monster wrote:
These discussions would be so much better if you didn't make up facts like this. You do realize Towns was only 5th in FGA/game and 6th in min/game right? If that's your idea of a first option then apparently JR Smith and Shaun Livingston are the top options during the finals...I'm glad you mentioned Kaminsky, isn't he the slow guy who Towns couldn't defend in the final four?
We all agree Towns could turn out to be a great player but let's not pretend his college career was anything more than it actually was.
Towns had still highest usage of all Kentucky players this season and most points per 40 minutes. So when he was on floor, he was most of the time at least pretty close to first option. Since usage was pretty even distributed between Kentucky players (6 players with major share of minutes had USG between 20.8 and 23.7. Only WCS and Ulis from players getting minutes had clearly lower usage) it is pretty clear that players getting most minutes have most FG attempts.
Extrapolating usage rate over 40 mins still doesn't account for context though. Of course when he was on the floor against 2nd units he had the highest usage rate. There is an obvious balloning of Towns stats by the way which he was used last year. Is it his fault that in those contexts he was the most talented player on the floor? No. Could he have produced at the same level had he been given WCS's role? Maybe. I think the point that we can't simply extrapolate KAT stats to prove that he was more productive on the court than Okafor stands.
The Rage Monster wrote:
These discussions would be so much better if you didn't make up facts like this. You do realize Towns was only 5th in FGA/game and 6th in min/game right? If that's your idea of a first option then apparently JR Smith and Shaun Livingston are the top options during the finals...I'm glad you mentioned Kaminsky, isn't he the slow guy who Towns couldn't defend in the final four?
We all agree Towns could turn out to be a great player but let's not pretend his college career was anything more than it actually was.
Towns had still highest usage of all Kentucky players this season and most points per 40 minutes. So when he was on floor, he was most of the time at least pretty close to first option. Since usage was pretty even distributed between Kentucky players (6 players with major share of minutes had USG between 20.8 and 23.7. Only WCS and Ulis from players getting minutes had clearly lower usage) it is pretty clear that players getting most minutes have most FG attempts.
Extrapolating usage rate over 40 mins still doesn't account for context though. Of course when he was on the floor against 2nd units he had the highest usage rate. There is an obvious balloning of Towns stats by the way which he was used last year. Is it his fault that in those contexts he was the most talented player on the floor? No. Could he have produced at the same level had he been given WCS's role? Maybe. I think the point that we can't simply extrapolate KAT stats to prove that he was more productive on the court than Okafor stands.
I think there are a lot of variables that go into any of these stats. Opponents talent, endurance, teammates, etc. One of the reasons I am not a fan of extrapolating leads me to something I remember from when MJ was playing. The bulls were playing Drexler and the Blazers I believe, and some photographer snapped a shot of MJ late in the 4th taking a long jump shot. By using reference points they determined that MJ had elevated close to 40 inches off the floor. What was truly amazing was that while everyone else was falling off, he seemed to be getting even stronger as the game went on. That is clearly the reverse of what usually happens, and we see it on a nightly basis with shots clanking of the front of the rim as guys get tired. Pulling up for more jump shots versus driving to the rim.
Having a big playing less minutes regardless of his opponent, should give him a decided advantage. His FT% should be better along with rebounding and likely FG% as well. Level of aggressiveness based on number of fouls could come into play as well.
The Rage Monster wrote:
These discussions would be so much better if you didn't make up facts like this. You do realize Towns was only 5th in FGA/game and 6th in min/game right? If that's your idea of a first option then apparently JR Smith and Shaun Livingston are the top options during the finals...I'm glad you mentioned Kaminsky, isn't he the slow guy who Towns couldn't defend in the final four?
We all agree Towns could turn out to be a great player but let's not pretend his college career was anything more than it actually was.
Towns had still highest usage of all Kentucky players this season and most points per 40 minutes. So when he was on floor, he was most of the time at least pretty close to first option. Since usage was pretty even distributed between Kentucky players (6 players with major share of minutes had USG between 20.8 and 23.7. Only WCS and Ulis from players getting minutes had clearly lower usage) it is pretty clear that players getting most minutes have most FG attempts.
Extrapolating usage rate over 40 mins still doesn't account for context though. Of course when he was on the floor against 2nd units he had the highest usage rate. There is an obvious balloning of Towns stats by the way which he was used last year. Is it his fault that in those contexts he was the most talented player on the floor? No. Could he have produced at the same level had he been given WCS's role? Maybe. I think the point that we can't simply extrapolate KAT stats to prove that he was more productive on the court than Okafor stands.
But didn't Towns start most games?
Half of his minutes were when he would come with the starting "platoon" in the 1st half. Then second half Cal would usually go random "situational platoons" where Towns would sub at the 5 for WCS until they found a way later in the year to make it advantageous to have them on the floor together in the 2nd half of games. Again as I saw it he had two roles that would account for balloning his extrapolated stats, playing next to a great defender who didn't have a role in the offense; or, being the lone talented big on the floor in situational contexts against 2nd units.
Ultimately this debate will keep going back to someone's gut, there are tangible things that can be gleaned from film that make someone have a preference, but there is not definitive statistical superiority apart from FT% that separate either of these players without throwing away context or confidence intervals.
Camden wrote:Oh, so Towns primarily scored against second units, according to doper.
Get outta here.
Right. Any counter point to your opinion should respond by leaving. Get it. Thanks for your contribution. I will stop with the simple points in dealing with extrapolating statistical data. You have finally convinced me that Towns is the best. A million times a better defender P&R defender than Okafor and dominant in every way based on his 20min/game NCAA production. Not to mention his NBA ready 3 point shooting based on his HS stats and the DX video.
The Rage Monster wrote:
These discussions would be so much better if you didn't make up facts like this. You do realize Towns was only 5th in FGA/game and 6th in min/game right? If that's your idea of a first option then apparently JR Smith and Shaun Livingston are the top options during the finals...I'm glad you mentioned Kaminsky, isn't he the slow guy who Towns couldn't defend in the final four?
We all agree Towns could turn out to be a great player but let's not pretend his college career was anything more than it actually was.
Towns had still highest usage of all Kentucky players this season and most points per 40 minutes. So when he was on floor, he was most of the time at least pretty close to first option. Since usage was pretty even distributed between Kentucky players (6 players with major share of minutes had USG between 20.8 and 23.7. Only WCS and Ulis from players getting minutes had clearly lower usage) it is pretty clear that players getting most minutes have most FG attempts.
Extrapolating usage rate over 40 mins still doesn't account for context though. Of course when he was on the floor against 2nd units he had the highest usage rate. There is an obvious balloning of Towns stats by the way which he was used last year. Is it his fault that in those contexts he was the most talented player on the floor? No. Could he have produced at the same level had he been given WCS's role? Maybe. I think the point that we can't simply extrapolate KAT stats to prove that he was more productive on the court than Okafor stands.
But didn't Towns start most games?
Half of his minutes were when he would come with the starting "platoon" in the 1st half. Then second half Cal would usually go random "situational platoons" where Towns would sub at the 5 for WCS until they found a way later in the year to make it advantageous to have them on the floor together in the 2nd half of games. Again as I saw it he had two roles that would account for balloning his extrapolated stats, playing next to a great defender who didn't have a role in the offense; or, being the lone talented big on the floor in situational contexts against 2nd units.
Ultimately this debate will keep going back to someone's gut, there are tangible things that can be gleaned from film that make someone have a preference, but there is not definitive statistical superiority apart from FT% that separate either of these players without throwing away context or confidence intervals.
Understood, but there are variables in Okafor's favor too that perhaps Towns would have benefited from as well, had he played for Duke.
The other thing to look at is how these guys were scouted at high level tournaments prior to college. Some of the same themes come up, which suggests that their differences weren't just due to the context of their college experience.
