Wolves/Mavs GDT

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

I've wanted him on the Wolves for what feels like the last four years, but once again, Ed Davis would be an awesome fit here and could do a lot of the dirty work our bigs just won't do.

[Lipoli390]

That was a really fun game. Josh Richardson gives us the win.

I was thinking the same thing, Doper. I'd feel much better right now if we had Josh Richardson on this team with an extra first round pick on the way next summer. If we also had Olynyk, I'd be thrilled. If we had Waiters instead, I'd still be content to know the Butler drama is behind us and we have a very talented 25 year old who scored 28 points in his last game and would have likely put us over the top tonight.

JRich went 3/11 tonight for 7 pts.

So in three games he's had 21, 28 and 7 points. I'd still take him at his age and on his contract, putting the Butler drama behind us and getting an extra 1st round pick to boot.

Lip, I hear you, I really do, but he's gone 8-21, 8-21, and 3-11. He has yet to finish a game with a positive +/- this season and it's because he's doing too much. He's not a rising star that can do it all, but that's what some are valuing him at and it's preposterous to me.

For some reason, I don't feel rushed to move on from an All-NBA player in his prime. And I certainly don't feel compelled to take a shitty deal for him. If a team doesn't pony up an acceptable offer, I'm content with rolling the dice this year, winning plenty of games, and seeing what happens with Butler next summer.

Also, I think the Butler drama is played out, as in, I think it was more of a facade than anything. None of the proposed stories and theories make any sense other than Butler just wants his money, and rightfully so. It could be as simple as Layden not wanting to give him the full max. Guess what the fix is? Giving Butler his money next summer after another successful season. The beef with teammates is overblown in my view.

I do see your point, Cam. Keeping Butler in the absence of an stellar offer makes sense if you believe there's a good chance this team will finish in the top 4 in the West and that Butler will re-sign next summer. I just think there are too many factors working against that happening. First, I don't think we'll finish in the top 4. That's mainly because I expect Butler to miss too many games to keep us at that level. Second, I don't see Butler changing him mind about leaving unless, perhaps, we make the Western Conference Finals. I think his issues with management and players aren't going away. But we're all just speculating.

At the end of the day, keeping Butler is too much of a gamble. And even if he decided to stay, I'm not sure I'd want to give him a max 4-5 year deal at his age with his injury propensity.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I'm watching the replay while reading the GDT. I understand the dissatisfaction with this franchise...the drama is embarrassing as is our defense. That said, I've enjoyed the pace of the first three games...all three games have been very entertaining. Rose's passion for the game has a lot to do with that.

But man, this defense is porous. I'm convinced ANY success Thibs had in Chicago defensively was all about Butler and Noah, and nothing about him. He is absolutely a terrible defensive coach and has proven this year that he has no business coaching an NBA team than doesn't have Jimmy Butler playing.

I'm don't get resting Butler in this game and am disgusted that he wasn't even on the bench...he should be fined for not making the trip. But tonight once again proved what was obvious in preseason...this team is nothing without Butler. I still think we bounce back to take Indy with Butler back in the starting lineup.

And please, Josh Richardson is not the answer. Cam has pointed out his terrible stats to begin this season, and didn't even mention his careless turnover in final seconds of the opener that caused them to lose to the lowly Magic. I'm not at all a fan of Thibodeau, but not taking Pat Riley's insulting offer is at least one positive.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I'm watching the replay while reading the GDT. I understand the dissatisfaction with this franchise...the drama is embarrassing as is our defense. That said, I've enjoyed the pace of the first three games...all three games have been very entertaining. Rose's passion for the game has a lot to do with that.

But man, this defense is porous. I'm convinced ANY success Thibs had in Chicago defensively was all about Butler and Noah, and nothing about him. He is absolutely a terrible defensive coach and has proven this year that he has no business coaching an NBA team than doesn't have Jimmy Butler playing.

I'm don't get resting Butler in this game and am disgusted that he wasn't even on the bench...he should be fined for not making the trip. But tonight once again proved what was obvious in preseason...this team is nothing without Butler. I still think we bounce back to take Indy with Butler back in the starting lineup.

And please, Josh Richardson is not the answer. Cam has pointed out his terrible stats to begin this season, and didn't even mention his careless turnover in final seconds of the opener that caused them to lose to the lowly Magic. I'm not at all a fan of Thibodeau, but not taking Pat Riley's insulting offer is at least one positive.

I'm cool with blaming Thibs for the Wolves porous defense.

But I think it's inaccurate to take credit away from him in Chicago. As I've pointed out, he had a deliberate scheme considered to be awesome by almost every other team in the league. They copied it. It actually changed the way many other franchises played defense a few years ago.

The problem?

The league has changed. Evolved. That type of defense no longer works vs. teams with 4 or even 5 guys who can shoot. Meanwhile, Thibs hasn't been able to change. Or evolve to find a new solution.

It's fine to rip Thibs for very real failures now. But it's disingenuous to not give him credit for some very real successes earlier in his career.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I'm watching the replay and harkening back to when I used to watch Laker games as a kid at the Armory (before they turned it into a parking ramp)...games were typically 140-136, much like this game, and a lot of fun to watch.

Derrick Rose...28 points in 32 minutes on just 22 shots! His athleticism is extraordinary...really stands out on the court. It makes me wonder if his knee is back to where it was in his MVP year, because he seems to be able to get by his defender and get to the rim at will. But what about his defense? I note that he was a -10 despite his big offensive game, and PGs seem to have little problem scoring on him. All this, despite the fact that I can find nothing to criticize in his effort on the defensive end. An athletic guy that goes all out on defense should be able to defend better. Two questions for posters that might be smarter than me about Rose.

1) What makes Rose such a poor defender, and what would he need to do to improve?
2) What was his defense like when he was MVP and at his peak?

[Monster]

I'm watching the replay and harkening back to when I used to watch Laker games as a kid at the Armory (before they turned it into a parking ramp)...games were typically 140-136, much like this game, and a lot of fun to watch.

Derrick Rose...28 points in 32 minutes on just 22 shots! His athleticism is extraordinary...really stands out on the court. It makes me wonder if his knee is back to where it was in his MVP year, because he seems to be able to get by his defender and get to the rim at will. But what about his defense? I note that he was a -10 despite his big offensive game, and PGs seem to have little problem scoring on him. All this, despite the fact that I can find nothing to criticize in his effort on the defensive end. An athletic guy that goes all out on defense should be able to defend better. Two questions for posters that might be smarter than me about Rose.

1) What makes Rose such a poor defender, and what would he need to do to improve?
2) What was his defense like when he was MVP and at his peak?

Part of his success in this game on offense was he was being guarded by Brunson for a chunk of the game. That guy is a rookie and has questions about his athletism.

As for Rose's defense...part of it is being asked to do more than he should. I mean you expect him to shit down Derozen or some other guy he is giving up a sizable disadvantage too? His -10 could have easily also be about his teammates as well.

Through 3 games I feel like Rose isn't the problem on this team. There are often times he has done some little things like getting a block or deflection or hustle plays. I'm not suggesting he is awesome but he has been quite bit better than Crawford was last year in these type of things for sure. It will be interesting to see what kind of impact he is making after a 10-20 game sample.

[Lipoli390]

I'm watching the replay while reading the GDT. I understand the dissatisfaction with this franchise...the drama is embarrassing as is our defense. That said, I've enjoyed the pace of the first three games...all three games have been very entertaining. Rose's passion for the game has a lot to do with that.

But man, this defense is porous. I'm convinced ANY success Thibs had in Chicago defensively was all about Butler and Noah, and nothing about him. He is absolutely a terrible defensive coach and has proven this year that he has no business coaching an NBA team than doesn't have Jimmy Butler playing.

I'm don't get resting Butler in this game and am disgusted that he wasn't even on the bench...he should be fined for not making the trip. But tonight once again proved what was obvious in preseason...this team is nothing without Butler. I still think we bounce back to take Indy with Butler back in the starting lineup.

And please, Josh Richardson is not the answer. Cam has pointed out his terrible stats to begin this season, and didn't even mention his careless turnover in final seconds of the opener that caused them to lose to the lowly Magic. I'm not at all a fan of Thibodeau, but not taking Pat Riley's insulting offer is at least one positive.

I'm cool with blaming Thibs for the Wolves porous defense.

But I think it's inaccurate to take credit away from him in Chicago. As I've pointed out, he had a deliberate scheme considered to be awesome by almost every other team in the league. They copied it. It actually changed the way many other franchises played defense a few years ago.

The problem?

The league has changed. Evolved. That type of defense no longer works vs. teams with 4 or even 5 guys who can shoot. Meanwhile, Thibs hasn't been able to change. Or evolve to find a new solution.

It's fine to rip Thibs for very real failures now. But it's disingenuous to not give him credit for some very real successes earlier in his career.

I think you nailed it, Abe. And I think LST would actually agree with you after reflecting on it a bit. LST is partially right in that some of Thibs' defensive success in Chicago was obviously due to the presence of Butler and Noah. I'd add Luol Deng in his prime to the list of defensive stalwarts Thibodeau had on that Chicago team. But the bottom line is that the game has passed Thibs by and he's too stubborn to change. Again, while he has talked about the importance of 3-point shooting in today's NBA, we were last in 3-point attempts last season. That's not an accident and it can't simply be a function of the personnel. And to the extent it was personnel, Thibodeau as PBO is responsible for the personnel. In fact, a substantial portion of the roster was Thibodeau's.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I'm watching the replay while reading the GDT. I understand the dissatisfaction with this franchise...the drama is embarrassing as is our defense. That said, I've enjoyed the pace of the first three games...all three games have been very entertaining. Rose's passion for the game has a lot to do with that.

But man, this defense is porous. I'm convinced ANY success Thibs had in Chicago defensively was all about Butler and Noah, and nothing about him. He is absolutely a terrible defensive coach and has proven this year that he has no business coaching an NBA team than doesn't have Jimmy Butler playing.

I'm don't get resting Butler in this game and am disgusted that he wasn't even on the bench...he should be fined for not making the trip. But tonight once again proved what was obvious in preseason...this team is nothing without Butler. I still think we bounce back to take Indy with Butler back in the starting lineup.

And please, Josh Richardson is not the answer. Cam has pointed out his terrible stats to begin this season, and didn't even mention his careless turnover in final seconds of the opener that caused them to lose to the lowly Magic. I'm not at all a fan of Thibodeau, but not taking Pat Riley's insulting offer is at least one positive.

I'm cool with blaming Thibs for the Wolves porous defense.

But I think it's inaccurate to take credit away from him in Chicago. As I've pointed out, he had a deliberate scheme considered to be awesome by almost every other team in the league. They copied it. It actually changed the way many other franchises played defense a few years ago.

The problem?

The league has changed. Evolved. That type of defense no longer works vs. teams with 4 or even 5 guys who can shoot. Meanwhile, Thibs hasn't been able to change. Or evolve to find a new solution.

It's fine to rip Thibs for very real failures now. But it's disingenuous to not give him credit for some very real successes earlier in his career.

I think you nailed it, Abe. And I think LST would actually agree with you after reflecting on it a bit. LST is partially right in that some of Thibs' defensive success in Chicago was obviously due to the presence of Butler and Noah. I'd add Luol Deng in his prime to the list of defensive stalwarts Thibodeau had on that Chicago team. But the bottom line is that the game has passed Thibs by and he's too stubborn to change. Again, while he has talked about the importance of 3-point shooting in today's NBA, we were last in 3-point attempts last season. That's not an accident and it can't simply be a function of the personnel. And to the extent it was personnel, Thibodeau as PBO is responsible for the personnel. In fact, a substantial portion of the roster was Thibodeau's.

Yes, I do agree with Abe's take. Thibs' defensive success in Chicago was a product of two factors:
1) Exceptional defensive personnel in Noah, Butler, and yes, I forgot to mention Deng.
2) A creative defensive scheme that fiercely defended the mid-range jump shot.

I would argue that the failure of the scheme to stop the new NBA offense is a bigger factor in our current woes than personnel.

[Lipoli390]

I'm watching the replay while reading the GDT. I understand the dissatisfaction with this franchise...the drama is embarrassing as is our defense. That said, I've enjoyed the pace of the first three games...all three games have been very entertaining. Rose's passion for the game has a lot to do with that.

But man, this defense is porous. I'm convinced ANY success Thibs had in Chicago defensively was all about Butler and Noah, and nothing about him. He is absolutely a terrible defensive coach and has proven this year that he has no business coaching an NBA team than doesn't have Jimmy Butler playing.

I'm don't get resting Butler in this game and am disgusted that he wasn't even on the bench...he should be fined for not making the trip. But tonight once again proved what was obvious in preseason...this team is nothing without Butler. I still think we bounce back to take Indy with Butler back in the starting lineup.

And please, Josh Richardson is not the answer. Cam has pointed out his terrible stats to begin this season, and didn't even mention his careless turnover in final seconds of the opener that caused them to lose to the lowly Magic. I'm not at all a fan of Thibodeau, but not taking Pat Riley's insulting offer is at least one positive.

LST - I'd agree that Richardson is not THE answer. But I see him along with another 1st round pick as part of the answer to moving this franchise forward. It seems silly to focus on Richardson's stats in this tiny 3-game sample to start the season. Obviously, his full-season stats from last season are FAR more indicative of his play and potential.

I've noticed that those on this board most adamently opposed to the failed Richardson deal we've all read about are those who appear to believe we have a decent chance of re-signing Butler next summer. I get that. I just don't see that as anything other than a long shot. Meanwhile, I think there's a significant chance Jimmy gets hurt and misses 20+ games again this season. He has one knee now without a miniscus and I suspect the other one is in the same deteriorated condition. He's closing in on 30 with a history of different ailments causing him to miss 15+ games a season on average when he was in his early to mid 20s. His injury propensity, coupled with his expiring deal, his trade demand and open disdain for this organization all tell us he needs to be moved. I'd like to believe we could get a better return for Jimmy than Richardson, a lottery-protected 1st and Waiters' terrible contract. But if we could, I think that offer would have already materialized. If a better offer did materialize but Thibodeau turned it down, then I'm at a loss for words.

[Monster]

I'm watching the replay while reading the GDT. I understand the dissatisfaction with this franchise...the drama is embarrassing as is our defense. That said, I've enjoyed the pace of the first three games...all three games have been very entertaining. Rose's passion for the game has a lot to do with that.

But man, this defense is porous. I'm convinced ANY success Thibs had in Chicago defensively was all about Butler and Noah, and nothing about him. He is absolutely a terrible defensive coach and has proven this year that he has no business coaching an NBA team than doesn't have Jimmy Butler playing.

I'm don't get resting Butler in this game and am disgusted that he wasn't even on the bench...he should be fined for not making the trip. But tonight once again proved what was obvious in preseason...this team is nothing without Butler. I still think we bounce back to take Indy with Butler back in the starting lineup.

And please, Josh Richardson is not the answer. Cam has pointed out his terrible stats to begin this season, and didn't even mention his careless turnover in final seconds of the opener that caused them to lose to the lowly Magic. I'm not at all a fan of Thibodeau, but not taking Pat Riley's insulting offer is at least one positive.

LST - I'd agree that Richardson is not THE answer. But I see him along with another 1st round pick as part of the answer to moving this franchise forward. It seems silly to focus on Richardson's stats in this tiny 3-game sample to start the season. Obviously, his full-season stats from last season are FAR more indicative of his play and potential.

I've noticed that those on this board most adamently opposed to the failed Richardson deal we've all read about are those who appear to believe we have a decent chance of re-signing Butler next summer. I get that. I just don't see that as anything other than a long shot. Meanwhile, I think there's a significant chance Jimmy gets hurt and misses 20+ games again this season. He has one knee now without a miniscus and I suspect the other one is in the same deteriorated condition. He's closing in on 30 with a history of different ailments causing him to miss 15+ games a season on average when he was in his early to mid 20s. His injury propensity, coupled with his expiring deal, his trade demand and open disdain for this organization all tell us he needs to be moved. I'd like to believe we could get a better return for Jimmy than Richardson, a lottery-protected 1st and Waiters' terrible contract. But if we could, I think that offer would have already materialized. If a better offer did materialize but Thibodeau turned it down, then I'm at a loss for words.

I'd guess quite a few of the people not wanting to do the deal would be perfectly fine if Butler walked for nothing. If I turned down that deal I'd be prepared for that outcome and live with it. You have ripped Thibs for signing Teague to his deal and not signing Collison for half the money. The deal we are talking about her basically means we add that kind of money to the roster and get a first round pick while taking up 2 roster spots. Why not be a smart organization and sign some solid vet wing next offseason with the midlevel or whatever? Sure that guy might now be as good as Richardson but he would be making half the money etc. The desperation to get something for Butler is clouding some judgement when it comes to various aspects of any deal. I'm was guilty as well especially when it came to the financials. Man I feel VERY stupid for saying I was relatively ok with that Gordon/ Tucker Houston deal when you consider the money aspect.