longstrangetrip wrote:Cam asked earlier in this thread for more out-of-the-box thinking...well, here you go.
After watching KAT in the playoffs last season and in almost every game this year, I'm beginning to think that Butler is not the guy we should be trading...it's KAT. I loved him up until the playoffs last year, but I'm becoming more and more convinced he has no heart, and is not the right guy to have as the cornerstone of this franchise. KAT brings back more in a trade than Butler, and I'm confident Butler signs a long-term deal here if KAT is gone.
But the first step is to fire Thibs...today. If I'm Glen I fire Thibs today, and watch a few games to see how the team responds. Maybe the results are so good he decides to keep both Butler and KAT. Or maybe KAT returns to the pre-playoffs KAT, and Glen continues to look for the best deal for Butler. Or...maybe KAT continues to pout, short-arm shots and ask to be taken out after airballing a three, and Glen changes his focus on who should be traded (if he hasn't already).
Butler was awful last night, but he has been a much better player this season than KAT...much better. If KAT is the reason Butler wants to leave (and I think it is), he needs to be considered for trade. I'm tired of watching him play with less passion than Wiggins.
LST - I really think it's time for you to move on from Butler. You and Thibs. :). Seriously, Butler doesn't want to be here. We all know that. And I doubt his desire to leave is tied solely to KAT. Look at KAT's three-year track record before you start calling for him to be traded based on 4 games this season. Reading things that other players have said about Butler and talking to someone last night who knows him, Butler is a guy you might tolerate, but don't like being around or playing with.
And let's think back for a moment. In the year Sam Mitchell coached, the Wolves were 15-15 their last 30 games, including some impressive wins against good teams like the road OT win over the Warriors who were striving to break the Bulls season-win total record. That's the team Thibodeau inherited. That team was centered around KAT, Wiggins and LaVine. Zach is gone, but KAT and Wiggins are still here and I believe they're the same people they were then. It would be beyond ridiculous to consider trading Towns without first giving him a full season under a coach other than Thibodeau. It's easy for us to tell a 23-year old to such it up and perform at his absolute top level. But if any of us were in a workplace with a boss like Thibodeau and a complete asshole co-worker going out of his say to publicly embarrass us, our performance just might suffer a bit - especially if we remember back to when we were only 23 years old.
Butler is an injury-prone jerk. He wants to leave and he WILL be gone if not this season certainly before next season. Moreover, until Thibodeau is replaced, this team and its individual players cannot be fairly or accurately assessed.
Butler may be a jerk, but I've never seen him take off-court issues onto the court...you can't question his consistent effort at both ends of the court. I have no patience for pouting athletes and no patience for the over-sensitivity KAT has shown this year. He's getting paid millions to play a little boys' game, and still doesn't give the fans their money's worth because his feelings are hurt...really?
But I agree it would be premature to move on KAT right now...I agree that the toxic environment Thibs creates can have a negative impact on any player. That's why I advocate replacing Thibs before making ANY trade...Butler or KAT. Butler has been a jerk off the court, and KAT has been a pouting baby on the court...frankly neither one looks like he wants to be here, and who knows how much Thibs has to do with that. Fire Thibs today, and then evaluate how KAT and Butler respond. To make a move with Thibs still in the mix would be disastrous IMO.
longstrangetrip wrote:Cam asked earlier in this thread for more out-of-the-box thinking...well, here you go.
After watching KAT in the playoffs last season and in almost every game this year, I'm beginning to think that Butler is not the guy we should be trading...it's KAT. I loved him up until the playoffs last year, but I'm becoming more and more convinced he has no heart, and is not the right guy to have as the cornerstone of this franchise. KAT brings back more in a trade than Butler, and I'm confident Butler signs a long-term deal here if KAT is gone.
But the first step is to fire Thibs...today. If I'm Glen I fire Thibs today, and watch a few games to see how the team responds. Maybe the results are so good he decides to keep both Butler and KAT. Or maybe KAT returns to the pre-playoffs KAT, and Glen continues to look for the best deal for Butler. Or...maybe KAT continues to pout, short-arm shots and ask to be taken out after airballing a three, and Glen changes his focus on who should be traded (if he hasn't already).
Butler was awful last night, but he has been a much better player this season than KAT...much better. If KAT is the reason Butler wants to leave (and I think it is), he needs to be considered for trade. I'm tired of watching him play with less passion than Wiggins.
LST - I really think it's time for you to move on from Butler. You and Thibs. :). Seriously, Butler doesn't want to be here. We all know that. And I doubt his desire to leave is tied solely to KAT. Look at KAT's three-year track record before you start calling for him to be traded based on 4 games this season. Reading things that other players have said about Butler and talking to someone last night who knows him, Butler is a guy you might tolerate, but don't like being around or playing with.
And let's think back for a moment. In the year Sam Mitchell coached, the Wolves were 15-15 their last 30 games, including some impressive wins against good teams like the road OT win over the Warriors who were striving to break the Bulls season-win total record. That's the team Thibodeau inherited. That team was centered around KAT, Wiggins and LaVine. Zach is gone, but KAT and Wiggins are still here and I believe they're the same people they were then. It would be beyond ridiculous to consider trading Towns without first giving him a full season under a coach other than Thibodeau. It's easy for us to tell a 23-year old to such it up and perform at his absolute top level. But if any of us were in a workplace with a boss like Thibodeau and a complete asshole co-worker going out of his say to publicly embarrass us, our performance just might suffer a bit - especially if we remember back to when we were only 23 years old.
Butler is an injury-prone jerk. He wants to leave and he WILL be gone if not this season certainly before next season. Moreover, until Thibodeau is replaced, this team and its individual players cannot be fairly or accurately assessed.
Butler may be a jerk, but I've never seen him take off-court issues onto the court...you can't question his consistent effort at both ends of the court. I have no patience for pouting athletes and no patience for the over-sensitivity KAT has shown this year. He's getting paid millions to play a little boys' game, and still doesn't give the fans their money's worth because his feelings are hurt...really?
But I agree it would be premature to move on KAT right now...I agree that the toxic environment Thibs creates can have a negative impact on any player. That's why I advocate replacing Thibs before making ANY trade...Butler or KAT. Butler has been a jerk off the court, and KAT has been a pouting baby on the court...frankly neither one looks like he wants to be here, and who knows how much Thibs has to do with that. Fire Thibs today, and then evaluate how KAT and Butler respond. To make a move with Thibs still in the mix would be disastrous IMO.
Well, if what lip said is true, i doubt anyone on this forum would be able to just suck it up and perform at peak levels much less do it with millions watching.
Also, jimmy doesnt let the off court stuff affect his on court play because hes the one creating the drama. Of course it isn't going to bother him.
LST, I'd argue Butler has not been as helpful as he could be on the court either. He doesn't even look KAT's way after KAT sets screens for him, yet he's more than willing to kick it out to a non-open Teague.
Butler builds himself up to be Mr. Professional and Blue Collar dude, but he's as petty and vindictive as anyone. Yes, he's still our best player, but none of that matters when he puts himself above the organization, including freezing our 2nd best player out of the offense.
Thibs is such an idiot to not have faced reality earlier this offseason. The Thibs/Butler combination have taken a wrecking ball to the franchise and fanbase while Taylor sits on his hands. Pathetic.
KG4Ever wrote:All I got to say with Porter is buy LOW!!! I'm a little surprised by Porter's slow start, but his body of work is too good to dismiss him. He's had a few nagging injuries in the past, so perhaps something is bothering him. The one nice thing about Porter is that he is not ball dependent and wouldn't clash with KAT and Wiggs getting most of the touches. He also is incredibly efficient, rebounds well, and plays good defense. Washington does have Oubre and so they might be willing to throw in some picks along with Porter.
Jimmy and Dieng for Porter and J. Smith (one year deal) and 1st round pick
At least you're consistent, KG4. We have people on this board who want to trade KAT because of his poor start this season, but are eager to trade for Porter in spite of his terrible start.
I just don't think Porter is the best fit here. I think we need a true ball-handling wing because that's not Wiggins forte.
If you get Porter back you pretty much have to pray Wiggins is a star offensively player or you need a get their own or someone else a bucket anytime PG somewhere somehow. We probably need that anyway.
I hear everyone's arguments about how KAT's pouting might be justified, but I'm sorry...I'm just not sympathetic at all. I'm all right with him being angry with Butler (assuming the gossip is true, and only Butler and the GF know for sure), but a true warrior channels that anger and plays harder rather than turning into a snowflake. It really makes me wonder what else in the future might put KAT in pout mode, and that just isn't the definition of a warrior...and I want to build this team around warriors. Jim Peterson is generally a homer, and you can feel the disgust he has for KAT right now. "If KAT's going to play soft like that, you might as well put in Gorgui". Those words are quite telling to me, and you don't hear him criticizing Butler.
But again, no moves until the real problem is taken care of...Thibs. I'm fairly confident that the real character of KAT and Butler will be revealed when Thibs is thankfully replaced. Only then can the Wolves make a move that I will feel comfortable with.
If the stuff about Butler and the Girl Towns was involved with at some point is true then...that does change things for me. I was willing to accept that Towns who had kept pretty much quiet but posting about how it was fake news made it not real. Maybe the way it was reported was not real and...IDK. It's just another layer of stuff we don't know.
Now here is the thing about Butler. If we take him at his word he basically asked out months ago right? Was that before this whole supposedly other stuff happened? Ultimately it seems like to me the guy that wants out is Butler and whether Towns or anyone else wants him gone doesn't really matter to Butler. With Houston stepping up with an intruiging offer it seems unlikely Butler is going to stick around the rest of the season. Glen and Thibs have both said they will honor the trade request. If you don't believe Thibs will I believe Glen will and so do people in the media that likely know more. Unless something pretty amazing and unexpected happens Butler is gonzo.
After Towns being down or whatever...idk what to make of it all. If people want to be mad at him even if there is all kinds of bad stuff that's fine. I'm personally not going that way. I feel there is way way too much stuff I don't know to rip on the guy that bad but that's just me. I've never really questioned his commitment to the game. Sure is there some stuff he should do better or try harder? Sure but I've never gotten the idea he is just loading around etc. I think he wants more of a buy in type culture where everybody gets more say in what happens and it's not because he wants the power etc. I get the sense Thibs is relinquishing some control but this Butler thing still clouds things. I think he is grounded enough to get through all this but it's lilely a tough time...not just for him.
crazy-canuck wrote:"Thibodeau has reportedly not been as involved in trade discussions, as Timberwolves owner Glen Taylor told the Minneapolis Star Tribune he has asked Thibodeau to focus on his coaching duties.
Taylor and Wolves general manager Scott Layden are handling the trade talks, Taylor said."
I'll just point out this is not new info. This stuff is from the interview Glen did with Sid after talking to Butler. Thibs not handling trade calls etc in season isn't anything new that's exactly what Layden has been doing the previous 2 years. It seems pretty obvious how Glen said it that Thibs is still the basketball guy in charge.
BizarroJerry wrote:4 1st round picks for Jimmy from Houston was the offer yes?
Yes, but had to take a bad contract and no one knows the protection on those picks.
Understood. But it's still 4. They would be low picks yes but they would be great trade tools later on. I know i said no poo poo platter, but this is a great deal imo.
