BizarroJerry wrote:I think the improvement lies more in who they're competing against. If you take two guys at 26, one has faced strong NBA competition for 5 years and the other only 2, then I would venture to guess the veteran (Butler in this case) has shown us his best or close to it. With Gorgei, I think a lot of us would like to see him compete for a few more years against the best and then make those evaluations.
I get Mikkeman's take more than this one.
So, you're saying it's a negative that Butler has performed so well while winning against top competition... and it's a positive that Dieng has had mixed results mostly losing vs. disinterested competition?
Abe - Sometimes you're such a cantankerous old man. :) All Jerry was saying is that we already know how good Butler can be, but we don't yet know how good Gorgui can be.
Butler's had 3 years of college and had 5 NBA seasons under a great head coach. Gorgui's had 2 years of college and hasn't had the benefit of playing under a great coach. It's reasonable to suggest that Gorgui could become a lot better after one or two more seasons and having Thibs as his head coach in that extra season or two.
That might be true. Or, Dieng was putting up hollow stats on really crappy teams and will be overmatched vs. more committed teams as the Wolves battle for a playoff spot this season. I guess we'll find out.
I'm simply more of a "bird in the hand" kind of guy. We KNOW Jimmy Butler is a really good player. Don't know why that's not appreciated more. (Not just with butler. Sometimes, I think as a group, we tend to value promise over production. Then again, we have a lot more experience with it as long-suffering Wolves fans.)
The bird in the hand would be appreciated more if it wasn't fighting with the recent history of #1 picks which says it's likely Wiggins will be better than Butler. Since '03, 7 #1 picks have been all-stars or better, 2 have had major injury issues (Bogut is pretty good given his injury history and Oden never had a career) and 2 have been hard busts (Bargnani and Bennett). Since Wiggins has been extremely durable that puts him at a 77% likelihood he becomes as good or better than Butler and a 23% chance he's worse. I'll take those odds for a star player over the bird in the hand.
BizarroJerry wrote:I think the improvement lies more in who they're competing against. If you take two guys at 26, one has faced strong NBA competition for 5 years and the other only 2, then I would venture to guess the veteran (Butler in this case) has shown us his best or close to it. With Gorgei, I think a lot of us would like to see him compete for a few more years against the best and then make those evaluations.
I get Mikkeman's take more than this one.
So, you're saying it's a negative that Butler has performed so well while winning against top competition... and it's a positive that Dieng has had mixed results mostly losing vs. disinterested competition?
Abe - Sometimes you're such a cantankerous old man. :) All Jerry was saying is that we already know how good Butler can be, but we don't yet know how good Gorgui can be.
Butler's had 3 years of college and had 5 NBA seasons under a great head coach. Gorgui's had 2 years of college and hasn't had the benefit of playing under a great coach. It's reasonable to suggest that Gorgui could become a lot better after one or two more seasons and having Thibs as his head coach in that extra season or two.
That might be true. Or, Dieng was putting up hollow stats on really crappy teams and will be overmatched vs. more committed teams as the Wolves battle for a playoff spot this season. I guess we'll find out.
I'm simply more of a "bird in the hand" kind of guy. We KNOW Jimmy Butler is a really good player. Don't know why that's not appreciated more. (Not just with butler. Sometimes, I think as a group, we tend to value promise over production. Then again, we have a lot more experience with it as long-suffering Wolves fans.)
The bird in the hand would be appreciated more if it wasn't fighting with the recent history of #1 picks which says it's likely Wiggins will be better than Butler. Since '03, 7 #1 picks have been all-stars or better, 2 have had major injury issues (Bogut is pretty good given his injury history and Oden never had a career) and 2 have been hard busts (Bargnani and Bennett). Since Wiggins has been extremely durable that puts him at a 77% likelihood he becomes as good or better than Butler and a 23% chance he's worse. I'll take those odds for a star player over the bird in the hand.
Huh?
1) I'm on record in this thread saying I'd rather have Wiggins.
2) But what does Wiggins have to do with the post you quoted? It was about Butler and Dieng...
BizarroJerry wrote:I think the improvement lies more in who they're competing against. If you take two guys at 26, one has faced strong NBA competition for 5 years and the other only 2, then I would venture to guess the veteran (Butler in this case) has shown us his best or close to it. With Gorgei, I think a lot of us would like to see him compete for a few more years against the best and then make those evaluations.
I get Mikkeman's take more than this one.
So, you're saying it's a negative that Butler has performed so well while winning against top competition... and it's a positive that Dieng has had mixed results mostly losing vs. disinterested competition?
Abe - Sometimes you're such a cantankerous old man. :) All Jerry was saying is that we already know how good Butler can be, but we don't yet know how good Gorgui can be.
Butler's had 3 years of college and had 5 NBA seasons under a great head coach. Gorgui's had 2 years of college and hasn't had the benefit of playing under a great coach. It's reasonable to suggest that Gorgui could become a lot better after one or two more seasons and having Thibs as his head coach in that extra season or two.
That might be true. Or, Dieng was putting up hollow stats on really crappy teams and will be overmatched vs. more committed teams as the Wolves battle for a playoff spot this season. I guess we'll find out.
I'm simply more of a "bird in the hand" kind of guy. We KNOW Jimmy Butler is a really good player. Don't know why that's not appreciated more. (Not just with butler. Sometimes, I think as a group, we tend to value promise over production. Then again, we have a lot more experience with it as long-suffering Wolves fans.)
The bird in the hand would be appreciated more if it wasn't fighting with the recent history of #1 picks which says it's likely Wiggins will be better than Butler. Since '03, 7 #1 picks have been all-stars or better, 2 have had major injury issues (Bogut is pretty good given his injury history and Oden never had a career) and 2 have been hard busts (Bargnani and Bennett). Since Wiggins has been extremely durable that puts him at a 77% likelihood he becomes as good or better than Butler and a 23% chance he's worse. I'll take those odds for a star player over the bird in the hand.
Huh?
1) I'm on record in this thread saying I'd rather have Wiggins.
2) But what does Wiggins have to do with the post you quoted? It was about Butler and Dieng...
Well to be fair the thread is Wiggins for Butler and it's the same argument of bird in the hand or in the bush between Wiggins and Butler so I thought your argument was also applicable to Wiggins' situation.
BizarroJerry wrote:I think the improvement lies more in who they're competing against. If you take two guys at 26, one has faced strong NBA competition for 5 years and the other only 2, then I would venture to guess the veteran (Butler in this case) has shown us his best or close to it. With Gorgei, I think a lot of us would like to see him compete for a few more years against the best and then make those evaluations.
I get Mikkeman's take more than this one.
So, you're saying it's a negative that Butler has performed so well while winning against top competition... and it's a positive that Dieng has had mixed results mostly losing vs. disinterested competition?
Abe - Sometimes you're such a cantankerous old man. :) All Jerry was saying is that we already know how good Butler can be, but we don't yet know how good Gorgui can be.
Butler's had 3 years of college and had 5 NBA seasons under a great head coach. Gorgui's had 2 years of college and hasn't had the benefit of playing under a great coach. It's reasonable to suggest that Gorgui could become a lot better after one or two more seasons and having Thibs as his head coach in that extra season or two.
That might be true. Or, Dieng was putting up hollow stats on really crappy teams and will be overmatched vs. more committed teams as the Wolves battle for a playoff spot this season. I guess we'll find out.
I'm simply more of a "bird in the hand" kind of guy. We KNOW Jimmy Butler is a really good player. Don't know why that's not appreciated more. (Not just with butler. Sometimes, I think as a group, we tend to value promise over production. Then again, we have a lot more experience with it as long-suffering Wolves fans.)
The bird in the hand would be appreciated more if it wasn't fighting with the recent history of #1 picks which says it's likely Wiggins will be better than Butler. Since '03, 7 #1 picks have been all-stars or better, 2 have had major injury issues (Bogut is pretty good given his injury history and Oden never had a career) and 2 have been hard busts (Bargnani and Bennett). Since Wiggins has been extremely durable that puts him at a 77% likelihood he becomes as good or better than Butler and a 23% chance he's worse. I'll take those odds for a star player over the bird in the hand.
Huh?
1) I'm on record in this thread saying I'd rather have Wiggins.
2) But what does Wiggins have to do with the post you quoted? It was about Butler and Dieng...
Well to be fair the thread is Wiggins for Butler and it's the same argument of bird in the hand or in the bush between Wiggins and Butler so I thought your argument was also applicable to Wiggins' situation.
No.
The context between 26-year-old Dieng having untapped potential vs. 26-year-old Butler is entirely different than a discussion about Wiggins' potential.
Conversations evolve. That's why this board thrives.
They seem to be laughing off the rumors. Certainly makes me like Butler a lot. I'd reiterate that I would definitely do the Bulter for Zach & 5 deal. But based on their conversation it seems like there is no deal.
Call me a homer, but I'm just not ready to part with LaVine any more than I am Wiggins. I know most of the argument in their favor is based on potential, and I can see how that could get annoying or have the broken record effect after time, but they've also shown some legitimate evidence that they can play in this league already at 20/21 years old, albeit for a 29-win team. I also think their games are very complimentary to one another in that Wiggins is a slasher and LaVine is a shot-maker. It's also not too often you can pair two of the most explosive athletes on one team together. The last duo that I can think of that was comparable in this regard was Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady 15+ years ago in Toronto, and they never really got a chance to thrive together.
Keep them together. Maybe we shit the bed by not cashing in their potential for proven production, but I wanna see this thing through. Because if they do continue to improve, and they come anywhere near their supposed ceilings... Look out.
I don't think liking Lavine's potential makes you a homer. I like his potential too, I just personally don't ever see him being a better player than Butler. People project Lavine to be an all-star. Butler is already there. Lavine's trade value may never be higher because of the potential people hope for. I am happy to keep him around too, and we probably will. But I think it is a better basketball move to put some seasoned players around Wiggins and Towns. Granted if the alternative is signing Horford that accomplishes this too without losing Lavine.
They seem to be laughing off the rumors. Certainly makes me like Butler a lot. I'd reiterate that I would definitely do the Bulter for Zach & 5 deal. But based on their conversation it seems like there is no deal.
There are so so so many reasons Butler won't be in a deal to the Wolves. The upside is if this thread and theoretical idea of it happening didn't exist we wouldn't have topics covered like who has more potential to get better Butler or Dieng which is sort of a legit and amusing discussion all at the same time. Carry on carry on.
They seem to be laughing off the rumors. Certainly makes me like Butler a lot. I'd reiterate that I would definitely do the Bulter for Zach & 5 deal. But based on their conversation it seems like there is no deal.
There are so so so many reasons Butler won't be in a deal to the Wolves. The upside is if this thread and theoretical idea of it happening didn't exist we wouldn't have topics covered like who has more potential to get better Butler or Dieng which is sort of a legit and amusing discussion all at the same time. Carry on carry on.
