Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:A lot depends on Edwards.

The Athletic recently had its player tiers article. The guy put Anthony Edwards ahead of Towns. There must be A LOT of projection into that take because that was nowhere close to truth last season despite the uneducated casual/national narrative.

Ant has to improve significantly and stay healthy for the Gobert/Towns pairing to work. In fact, it's what has me most concerned. NBA teams can win with one star wing and one one star big man... or two star wings and no big men. But has any team won in recent NBA history with two star bigs and no star wing?

I think we are definitely in the top 4 in terms of talent now. Following on Abe's reference to the tiering article though and also looking at some Vegas odds, that belief is not consistent with the national media. Four of the players on our roster make the top 125 list. DLo is in the bottom (5th) tier, nobody is in the 4th, Ant and KAT are in the 3rd, and Rudy is in the 2nd. The top tier is only 8 players, and I would argue Gobert might belong there. If KAT and Ant play like second tier players (and I think they can) and Jaden plays like a 5th tier player (again the potential is there), we can at least start talking about the Western Conference finals.

I believe a lot of national people are ranking Ant ahead of KAT because he played better than him in the playoffs. The last opportunity for national exposure more or less shit the bed and Ant looked like he belonged. If Finch can ensure KAT and Gobert can share the floor at all times, I expect KAT and DLo to bump when the pressure is on. But I were to look at the Memphis series in a vacuum, I would have assumed Ant was our best player. I agree he needs huge improvements for that to be the day to day reality, but there is enough there to be optimistic that Ant will make another jump.

Q-was-here wrote:

rapsuperstar31 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:A lot depends on Edwards.

The Athletic recently had its player tiers article. The guy put Anthony Edwards ahead of Towns. There must be A LOT of projection into that take because that was nowhere close to truth last season despite the uneducated casual/national narrative.

Ant has to improve significantly and stay healthy for the Gobert/Towns pairing to work. In fact, it's what has me most concerned. NBA teams can win with one star wing and one one star big man... or two star wings and no big men. But has any team won in recent NBA history with two star bigs and no star wing?

There is more to be star player to a team than just the box score. Ant started a bit slow, and also hit a wall for a good month or so when he was going through knee issues. Ant not only has the potential to be better than Towns both offensively and defensively, he has ability to be the lead of the team as well. Kat can lead, but he also pouts and gets mad too easily. Early in the season when the media was criticizing his whining, he stopped bitching during the next few games, not to be more of a leader but to try and prove his point that he needs to play with passion. Ant will be the best player on our team either next season or his 4th season, it will be very soon.

This is all part of the KAT drama experience. He does things in a performative, childish manner versus from a place of maturity. And yeah, it's why Ant ultimately has to ascend as both a player and leader of men in order for us to be serious contenders. KAT can be an awesome #2.

You nailed it Q. But will Ant be brash enough to put KAT in his place when he needs to?

thedoper wrote:I believe a lot of national people are ranking Ant ahead of KAT because he played better than him in the playoffs. The last opportunity for national exposure more or less shit the bed and Ant looked like he belonged. If Finch can ensure KAT and Gobert can share the floor at all times, I expect KAT and DLo to bump when the pressure is on. But I were to look at the Memphis series in a vacuum, I would have assumed Ant was our best player. I agree he needs huge improvements for that to be the day to day reality, but there is enough there to be optimistic that Ant will make another jump.

Are we sure Ant was our best player in the playoffs?

Kat averaged 22/11/2 on 49/46/86 splits while playing good defense and played well in the 4th Qs shooting 48% in the 4th.

Ant averaged 25/4/3 on 46/40/82 splits while playing good defense. But in the 4th Q Ant took as many shots as Kat but shot 29% from the floor and really killed the wolves in the 4th Q with his iso play.

I love Ant but Kat in my opinion is still significantly better than Ant. Now Ant is in year 2 and I expect him to take a very nice leap but Ant still has that new shiny toy appeal to him, while Kat is not asthetically pleasing to watch when he starts whining all the time. Kat played bad in the play in game and in game 3. When Kat plays bad it is easier to notice because he is whining all the time. With that said Kat thrived in the playoffs when it mattered most and was the wolves best player. Ant played great but in the 4th he really struggled and his iso ball really killed the wolves and the guard play in the 4th between Ant, Dlo and Pat Bev all were bad. Now Ant is a 2nd year player so that is fine that he struggled down the stretch in his 1st ever playoffs. I just think there is a stigma to Kat, even though Kat is significantly better at this time.

There is still a lot of unknowns. Health of some of the top players on various teams. The Warriors have a lot of young that if a couple of them take a step forward then they would arguably be the most talented team in the NBA. Will another team make a big move before the season starts? If I had to pick right now I would take the Warriors. They have 3 HOFers even if they are older Wiggins Looney a bunch of young guys and while they lost Porter and Gary Payton they added DVincenzo and still have some roster spots open.

kekgeek1 wrote:

thedoper wrote:I believe a lot of national people are ranking Ant ahead of KAT because he played better than him in the playoffs. The last opportunity for national exposure more or less shit the bed and Ant looked like he belonged. If Finch can ensure KAT and Gobert can share the floor at all times, I expect KAT and DLo to bump when the pressure is on. But I were to look at the Memphis series in a vacuum, I would have assumed Ant was our best player. I agree he needs huge improvements for that to be the day to day reality, but there is enough there to be optimistic that Ant will make another jump.

Are we sure Ant was our best player in the playoffs?

Kat averaged 22/11/2 on 49/46/86 splits while playing good defense and played well in the 4th Qs shooting 48% in the 4th.

Ant averaged 25/4/3 on 46/40/82 splits while playing good defense. But in the 4th Q Ant took as many shots as Kat but shot 29% from the floor and really killed the wolves in the 4th Q with his iso play.

I love Ant but Kat in my opinion is still significantly better than Ant. Now Ant is in year 2 and I expect him to take a very nice leap but Ant still has that new shiny toy appeal to him, while Kat is not aesthetically pleasing to watch when he starts whining all the time. Kat played bad in the play in game and in game 3. When Kat plays bad it is easier to notice because he is whining all the time. With that said Kat thrived in the playoffs when it mattered most and was the wolves best player. Ant played great but in the 4th he really struggled and his iso ball really killed the wolves and the guard play in the 4th between Ant, Dlo and Pat Bev all were bad. Now Ant is a 2nd year player so that is fine that he struggled down the stretch in his 1st ever playoffs. I just think there is a stigma to Kat, even though Kat is significantly better at this time.

Kat had one great game, two horrible games and the rest were average by his standards. Those standards are higher then what we have set for Ant too. I agree with you that Kat is still better, and that there were aspects of Ant's play in the playoffs that were juvenile and problematic. But I think the lasting narrative from Kat's playoff performance was a disappointment, whereas Ant's was optimistic. That is my memory of what I watched too, so I really can't blame people who don't regularly watch the Wolves for thinking Ant is our best player if the series against the Griz was their only frame of reference.

It's really hard to project these guys into the future. KAT honestly hasn't improved beyond just the margins since his 2nd or 3rd year. Back then he was considered a unicorn that you'd build a franchise around. Now he's a solid #2 because he never really became a great defender and carries a bunch of emotional baggage. On the other hand, who woulda thought Jimmy Butler would forge himself into a legit superstar? Even after three years in the league it wasn't apparent.

But if we look at past players in similar roles/ages, you can make some educated guesses. In my opinion, Ant is ahead of where Ja Morant, Jayson Tatum, and Jaylen Brown were after their 2nd year in the league. He's probably about even with the likes of Westbrook, Rose, and Mitchell after their second year. And he's behind guys like Durant, Doncic, and LeBron.

So will he ever be as good as LeBron or Durant? Probably not. But what about Tatum or Morant? That doesn't seem so unrealistic.

Q-was-here wrote:It's really hard to project these guys into the future. KAT honestly hasn't improved beyond just the margins since his 2nd or 3rd year. Back then he was considered a unicorn that you'd build a franchise around. Now he's a solid #2 because he never really became a great defender and carries a bunch of emotional baggage. On the other hand, who woulda thought Jimmy Butler would forge himself into a legit superstar? Even after three years in the league it wasn't apparent.

But if we look at past players in similar roles/ages, you can make some educated guesses. In my opinion, Ant is ahead of where Ja Morant, Jayson Tatum, and Jaylen Brown were after their 2nd year in the league. He's probably about even with the likes of Westbrook, Rose, and Mitchell after their second year. And he's behind guys like Durant, Doncic, and LeBron.

So will he ever be as good as LeBron or Durant? Probably not. But what about Tatum or Morant? That doesn't seem so unrealistic.

I think you and some others are making way too much of KAT's whining and theatrics. I don't like that stuff either, but his productivity and efficiency are elite and those are the things that count. It was KAT's productivity and efficiency, more than anything, that got this team to 46 wins last season. Replace him with anyone other that one of the few elite players in the game and the Wolves would not have come close to making the playoffs either last season or the season when Jimmy Butler was here. If Ant's productivity and efficiency, as well as his defense, end up at the level he's capable of achieving, then he'll be this team's best player. At that point, Ant and KAT will carry this team to title contention with support from the other core rotation guys Gobert, McDaniels, DLO and a few others. KAT can keep whining (like Doncic, Jokic and others) about calls and he can keep offering painfully contrived comments, but it won't matter. And Edwards doesn't have to bring KAT in line. KAT just needs to continue to give 100%, produce at the level he's been producing and remain healthy. Meanwhile, Ant needs to become our Dwayne Wade or better. We know what we'll get from Gobert. Put those things together and this team is a championship contender if the other key pieces - DLO, McDaniels, Nowell, Prince, etc. do their part.

Lip, I think the biggest thing Jokic has over KAT is his demeanor and cool under fire. I know Joker has had some incidents like most players, but there is no comparison to the constant whining and terrible body language KAT performs. Joker keeps it in check pretty well in my opinion.

lipoli390 wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:It's really hard to project these guys into the future. KAT honestly hasn't improved beyond just the margins since his 2nd or 3rd year. Back then he was considered a unicorn that you'd build a franchise around. Now he's a solid #2 because he never really became a great defender and carries a bunch of emotional baggage. On the other hand, who woulda thought Jimmy Butler would forge himself into a legit superstar? Even after three years in the league it wasn't apparent.

But if we look at past players in similar roles/ages, you can make some educated guesses. In my opinion, Ant is ahead of where Ja Morant, Jayson Tatum, and Jaylen Brown were after their 2nd year in the league. He's probably about even with the likes of Westbrook, Rose, and Mitchell after their second year. And he's behind guys like Durant, Doncic, and LeBron.

So will he ever be as good as LeBron or Durant? Probably not. But what about Tatum or Morant? That doesn't seem so unrealistic.

I think you and some others are making way too much of KAT's whining and theatrics. I don't like that stuff either, but his productivity and efficiency are elite and those are the things that count. It was KAT's productivity and efficiency, more than anything, that got this team to 46 wins last season. Replace him with anyone other that one of the few elite players in the game and the Wolves would not have come close to making the playoffs either last season or the season when Jimmy Butler was here. If Ant's productivity and efficiency, as well as his defense, end up at the level he's capable of achieving, then he'll be this team's best player. At that point, Ant and KAT will carry this team to title contention with support from the other core rotation guys Gobert, McDaniels, DLO and a few others. KAT can keep whining (like Doncic, Jokic and others) about calls and he can keep offering painfully contrived comments, but it won't matter. And Edwards doesn't have to bring KAT in line. KAT just needs to continue to give 100%, produce at the level he's been producing and remain healthy. Meanwhile, Ant needs to become our Dwayne Wade or better. We know what we'll get from Gobert. Put those things together and this team is a championship contender if the other key pieces - DLO, McDaniels, Nowell, Prince, etc. do their part.

I think the thing that will help Towns be more mature or be less of the stuff people dislike about him is if he actually has more talent around him. I think Towns is mostly a good dude isn't actually about himself but he takes things way too seriously and puts too much on himself. If he actually has help maybe he can chill out a little.

They are VERY different players and different personalities but KG and Towns I think have something similar in that they have this part of them that they need to calm down. KG later in his Wolves career started meditating and taking time on the bench to do that type of thing even during the game. Towns could use something to relax and just let things come to him a bit more. I think one of his problems is he tries to force things that aren't there. It's not because he doesn't try hard it's because he tries to hard to do stuff that maybe isn't the right thing to do. That might be part of sometimes him not looking as instinctual of a player as I would expect. Towns is talented enough that he is still very effective despite some of his flaws. I personally think pairing him with Gobert is gonna be really good for Towns. Edwards is a good compliment in personality for him and also also on the floor.

I think one of the guys that could ultimately get through to Towns as much as anyone other than Finch is Russell. He seems to be willing to say stuff but isn't gonna just go yelling at Towns to shut up and play or whatever. He is pretty even in what he is going to say. Josh Minott is gonna bring some energy that the team lost when they let Okogie go.

Sidenote: I don't think Naz has the victim mentality that Towns does but I think he takes the game seriously and like Towns maybe a bit to his detriment. The Wolves seem to have a balance of guys. Sort of in the other side Knight just goes out and plays and has some fun. Having some guys who do things a little differently is a good thing and could help people be more successful. I think Kyle Anderson is gonna help too. Meanwhile Austin Rivers I think is a guy that even if he is just a rotation level talent I think he is always gonna be bringing it. Sometimes some of those high energy fun guys need people m who takes things more serious to keep them focused too.

I personally find that I tend to do better in life if I have someone around that just jumps head first into things to be around. It gets me out of my head and helps me do more than I would and also helps me to have fun. I did sales a few summers when I was in school. One year the job I had we had different team leaders work with us for a while to give us a break and also help us give us tips etc on how to do a better job which was really nice. One of the guys I really liked working with we were really similar in personality. I did not sell as well after working with him. Another guy I worked with was a big dude that was wildly enthusiastic about the job, sometimes absolutely didn't even seem to listen to the customer and sometimes said goofy stuff and I would try not to roll my eyes and cringe. I always did better after working with him and figured this out after a couple weeks and started to look forward to when he would work with me. He had a bit of a childlike quality to him and I don't think he has ever lost it. He owns a pretty successful construction type business now and is actually known for how he makes sure the details are done correctly. Some of this is probably due to the woman he married who also was one of the sales team leaders. I disliked working with her espciksky initially because she was wildly goal driven very by the sales book etc. A lot of that stuff simply didn't work for me in that job unless I was having a rough day.* She would always set goals when she worked with me and when she left for the day I would disregard them. We talked about how we were different and came to an understanding and for the most part didn't have a problem with each other. I let her set goals when we worked together and usually would keep track of them through the end of the day. I could be better about setting goals in general but not with that job. That summer was one where I saw again the value of having different people around me.

*When I was having a bad day doing sales I would actually give me sort of a pick me up when someone would get mad and curse me out or whatever. It just always kinda cracked me up. I mean trust me I was not a pushy sales person (I wasn't particularly good at sales! Lol) if you didn't want the thing I was selling and said so I was outta there. So basically I just thought it was funny at the time that someone was gonna get all mad because I knocked on their door and asked if they wanted to buy the thing they would say no I would basically be polite and leave and they and they would still go bonkers. If it was one of those types of sales people that don't take no for an answer then sure, but that wasn't me.