Minnesota Sports Forum

Yes unfortunately it's not so much what TC should do as what he will do.

Camden wrote:

Jester1534 wrote:I think we should let Kat and Rudy play more than 15 games and then trade them. How do you know something doesn't work with such small sample size. I swear this board makes it sounds like we're the Houston Rockets sometimes.

For me, it's less about seeing if the two of them can work and more about seeing the individual decline of Rudy Gobert, as well as optimizing Anthony Edwards. I don't think Gobert was ever a great fit for Edwards' game as a slasher. Not to mention, the financial ramifications of keeping Gobert long-term on his supermax contract are real. That's a lot of cap to tie up in a player who may not even be worth half of what he gets paid as soon as next season.

If this team gets fully healthy, I would expect them to win enough games to where some may consider this season a success, especially given the injuries, but there are signs that Gobert is no where near the same player he was just a year ago and may trend further downwards every season moving forward. He has not been dominant to this point. He has been an awkward and clunky fit, and an absolute anchor offensively in a bad way. Moving him while he still has some positive value could actually be the right move.

With that said, I think Tim Connelly would trade Karl-Anthony Towns for Bojan Bogdanovic and Royce O'Neal -- putting the Jazz team back together -- before he'd move Gobert this off-season. He is going to make Gobert fit even if it means moving everything around him.

Camden and I totally agree! Good point on him being a bad fit with edwards the slasher

Camden wrote:

Jester1534 wrote:I think we should let Kat and Rudy play more than 15 games and then trade them. How do you know something doesn't work with such small sample size. I swear this board makes it sounds like we're the Houston Rockets sometimes.

For me, it's less about seeing if the two of them can work and more about seeing the individual decline of Rudy Gobert, as well as optimizing Anthony Edwards. I don't think Gobert was ever a great fit for Edwards' game as a slasher. Not to mention, the financial ramifications of keeping Gobert long-term on his supermax contract are real. That's a lot of cap to tie up in a player who may not even be worth half of what he gets paid as soon as next season.

If this team gets fully healthy, I would expect them to win enough games to where some may consider this season a success, especially given the injuries, but there are signs that Gobert is no where near the same player he was just a year ago and may trend further downwards every season moving forward. He has not been dominant to this point. He has been an awkward and clunky fit, and an absolute anchor offensively in a bad way. Moving him while he still has some positive value could actually be the right move.

With that said, I think Tim Connelly would trade Karl-Anthony Towns for Bojan Bogdanovic and Royce O'Neal -- putting the Jazz team back together -- before he'd move Gobert this off-season. He is going to make Gobert fit even if it means moving everything around him.

My view on why we should trade Gobert is the same as yours, Cam. But I disagree with you on what TC is inclined to do. I give him more credit than that. I fully understand TC not trading Rudy at the deadline and instead trying to play it out until the end of the season with KAT returning. I also understand the Conley deal as a low-risk effort to get the most out of Rudy the rest of this season. None of that means he's going to dig in deeper after the season if things don't go well down the stretch. In spite of the the Gobert trade, I still think TC is a smart guy. By all accounts, he doesn't have a big ego either. So I think he's smart enough not to dig an even deeper hole or blow things up for major rebuild. And I think he's humble and secure enough to say, "I blew it. It didn't work out, but we're going to fix it and move on with two all-stars in KAT and Edwards, along with talented up-and-coming players like McDaniels and Naz and young untapped talent in Minott and Garza. It's a pretty good narrative and a true one. He's on the front end of a long contract so he has no finance risk in admitting a mistake and moving on from Rudy. The only downside for him in trading Rudy next summer is ego and he doesn't strike as a guy with a big or fragile ego.

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:

Jester1534 wrote:I think we should let Kat and Rudy play more than 15 games and then trade them. How do you know something doesn't work with such small sample size. I swear this board makes it sounds like we're the Houston Rockets sometimes.

For me, it's less about seeing if the two of them can work and more about seeing the individual decline of Rudy Gobert, as well as optimizing Anthony Edwards. I don't think Gobert was ever a great fit for Edwards' game as a slasher. Not to mention, the financial ramifications of keeping Gobert long-term on his supermax contract are real. That's a lot of cap to tie up in a player who may not even be worth half of what he gets paid as soon as next season.

If this team gets fully healthy, I would expect them to win enough games to where some may consider this season a success, especially given the injuries, but there are signs that Gobert is no where near the same player he was just a year ago and may trend further downwards every season moving forward. He has not been dominant to this point. He has been an awkward and clunky fit, and an absolute anchor offensively in a bad way. Moving him while he still has some positive value could actually be the right move.

With that said, I think Tim Connelly would trade Karl-Anthony Towns for Bojan Bogdanovic and Royce O'Neal -- putting the Jazz team back together -- before he'd move Gobert this off-season. He is going to make Gobert fit even if it means moving everything around him.

My view on why we should trade Gobert is the same as yours, Cam. But I disagree with you on what TC is inclined to do. I give him more credit than that. I fully understand TC not trading Rudy at the deadline and instead trying to play it out until the end of the season with KAT returning. I also understand the Conley deal as a low-risk effort to get the most out of Rudy the rest of this season. None of that means he's going to dig in deeper after the season if things don't go well down the stretch. In spite of the the Gobert trade, I still think TC is a smart guy. By all accounts, he doesn't have a big ego either. So I think he's smart enough not to dig an even deeper hole or blow things up for major rebuild. And I think he's humble and secure enough to say, "I blew it. It didn't work out, but we're going to fix it and move on with two all-stars in KAT and Edwards, along with talented up-and-coming players like McDaniels and Naz and young untapped talent in Minott and Garza. It's a pretty good narrative and a true one. He's on the front end of a long contract so he has no finance risk in admitting a mistake and moving on from Rudy. The only downside for him in trading Rudy next summer is ego and he doesn't strike as a guy with a big or fragile ego.

Not saying TC didn't love the player but the trade might not even been his idea but new ownership wanting to make a splashy move. We already know TC track record and he continures with signings like Kyle Anderson and picks like Kessler and seeing talent in guy like Garza. Let the man go to work before we completely judge him. It's ultimately up to Finchy to figure out the best way to max out this team. I'm sorry when Kat is back and Rudy gobert is your 4th best player and you can't succeed that's on the coach not the GM

D-Mac wrote:

Camden wrote:

Jester1534 wrote:I think we should let Kat and Rudy play more than 15 games and then trade them. How do you know something doesn't work with such small sample size. I swear this board makes it sounds like we're the Houston Rockets sometimes.

For me, it's less about seeing if the two of them can work and more about seeing the individual decline of Rudy Gobert, as well as optimizing Anthony Edwards. I don't think Gobert was ever a great fit for Edwards' game as a slasher. Not to mention, the financial ramifications of keeping Gobert long-term on his supermax contract are real. That's a lot of cap to tie up in a player who may not even be worth half of what he gets paid as soon as next season.

If this team gets fully healthy, I would expect them to win enough games to where some may consider this season a success, especially given the injuries, but there are signs that Gobert is no where near the same player he was just a year ago and may trend further downwards every season moving forward. He has not been dominant to this point. He has been an awkward and clunky fit, and an absolute anchor offensively in a bad way. Moving him while he still has some positive value could actually be the right move.

With that said, I think Tim Connelly would trade Karl-Anthony Towns for Bojan Bogdanovic and Royce O'Neal -- putting the Jazz team back together -- before he'd move Gobert this off-season. He is going to make Gobert fit even if it means moving everything around him.

Camden and I totally agree! Good point on him being a bad fit with edwards the slasher

Ditto. At the outset, i was more concerned about the fit with Edwards than the fit with KAT. I never thought Rudy fit well with Edwards from a style perspective (Ant as slasher) or a developmental perspective (age 30 v. 20 at time of the trade). I don't think he fits well with KAT either, but that's always been secondarily in my view. As for Gobert declining, it's hard to know. His numbers on some key metrics are certainly down. I'm still not sure how much of that is age-related decline or poor fit. It might be a combination of the two.

Last summer I looked at the stats of some major NBA bigs from age 30 on. Most of them declined significantly in at least one major category after either age 30 or 31. Hakeem's rebounding and block numbers started to decline each year at age 31. Duncan's rebounding and block numbers started declining at age 32 and his scoring numbers started to decline at age 33. Shaq's scoring numbers went way down starting at age 31 and his rebounding numbers started to decline at age 32. KG's numbers across the board went down significantly at age 31 and his numbers continued to decline precipitously every year after that. Millsap's numbers went way down at age 32. Mutombo's numbers didn't start to decline significantly until he was 35. Bottom line is that once a big hits age 30 all bets are off. The player won't get better at that point and will almost always start to decline at some point in his early 30s. Of course, this data provides yet another reason why it didn't make sense to bet the farm on pairing the now 31 year old Rudy Gobert with the now 21 year old Anthony Edwards.

Jester1534 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:

Jester1534 wrote:I think we should let Kat and Rudy play more than 15 games and then trade them. How do you know something doesn't work with such small sample size. I swear this board makes it sounds like we're the Houston Rockets sometimes.

For me, it's less about seeing if the two of them can work and more about seeing the individual decline of Rudy Gobert, as well as optimizing Anthony Edwards. I don't think Gobert was ever a great fit for Edwards' game as a slasher. Not to mention, the financial ramifications of keeping Gobert long-term on his supermax contract are real. That's a lot of cap to tie up in a player who may not even be worth half of what he gets paid as soon as next season.

If this team gets fully healthy, I would expect them to win enough games to where some may consider this season a success, especially given the injuries, but there are signs that Gobert is no where near the same player he was just a year ago and may trend further downwards every season moving forward. He has not been dominant to this point. He has been an awkward and clunky fit, and an absolute anchor offensively in a bad way. Moving him while he still has some positive value could actually be the right move.

With that said, I think Tim Connelly would trade Karl-Anthony Towns for Bojan Bogdanovic and Royce O'Neal -- putting the Jazz team back together -- before he'd move Gobert this off-season. He is going to make Gobert fit even if it means moving everything around him.

My view on why we should trade Gobert is the same as yours, Cam. But I disagree with you on what TC is inclined to do. I give him more credit than that. I fully understand TC not trading Rudy at the deadline and instead trying to play it out until the end of the season with KAT returning. I also understand the Conley deal as a low-risk effort to get the most out of Rudy the rest of this season. None of that means he's going to dig in deeper after the season if things don't go well down the stretch. In spite of the the Gobert trade, I still think TC is a smart guy. By all accounts, he doesn't have a big ego either. So I think he's smart enough not to dig an even deeper hole or blow things up for major rebuild. And I think he's humble and secure enough to say, "I blew it. It didn't work out, but we're going to fix it and move on with two all-stars in KAT and Edwards, along with talented up-and-coming players like McDaniels and Naz and young untapped talent in Minott and Garza. It's a pretty good narrative and a true one. He's on the front end of a long contract so he has no finance risk in admitting a mistake and moving on from Rudy. The only downside for him in trading Rudy next summer is ego and he doesn't strike as a guy with a big or fragile ego.

Not saying TC didn't love the player but the trade might not even been his idea but new ownership wanting to make a splashy move. We already know TC track record and he continures with signings like Kyle Anderson and picks like Kessler and seeing talent in guy like Garza. Let the man go to work before we completely judge him. It's ultimately up to Finchy to figure out the best way to max out this team. I'm sorry when Kat is back and Rudy gobert is your 4th best player and you can't succeed that's on the coach not the GM

Jester -

I agree with you on TC, except that I doubt the Rudy deal was conceived or even driven by ownership. I think it was simply bad judgment and an overreach by TC - probably fueled by his front office cohorts. It doesn't mean TC's incompetent. Quite the contrary, he did really well with his draft picks (Kessler and Minott) and free agent signings (Kyle Anderson and Luka Garza). He's still the same guy who built the Conference leading Nuggets. Being really good at something doesn't mean you don't make mistakes - even big mistakes. His challenge now will be digging out of the hole he dug last summer with the Gobert deal. The good news is that he still has a lot of talent to build around in KAT, Edwards, McDaniels, Naz Reid and Kyle Anderson with some intriguing young talent in Minott, Garza and possibly Moore. He also has the Knicks' 2023 2nd round pick. Trading Rudy won't bring in what he gave up, but it would invariable add meaningful talent and/or future picks.

I disagree with you on Finch. McHale set me straight a long time ago in a gathering of season ticket holders when he said it's not the five best players; it's the five players who play best together. It's not the sum total of talent, but the blend of talent that matters. If Rudy's presence diminishes the productivity of our two best players - Edwards and KAT, then the total value is less than the sum of the parts. That's the situation we face. It's fixable and I believe TC can fix it. To do so, I believe he'll have to bite the bullet and move on from Rudy. I think he's smart and secure enough to do just that.

We're a dark and bitter fanbase. How do you fellas make it out of bed in the morning :-)

Yeah, the Rudy Gobert and Mike Conley Jr. trades stink like Dell Demps.

Sundog60 wrote:We're a dark and bitter fanbase. How do you fellas make it out of bed in the morning :-)

We're no darker or more bitter than any other fan base. And my own assessment of the Wolves situation is neither dark nor bitter. I thought the Gobert deal was terrible at the outset and everything I've seen since then unfortunately supports my initial assessment. However, I'm pleased with the additions of Anderson, Minott and Garza. I'm very happy with the development of Ant and McDaniels. KAT is still a perennial all-star in his prime and should return to his prior form since his injury was not a structural injury that would likely impede him the rest of his career. Given Ant's development we now have a second all-star for the first time since Jimmy Butler left. Half the League is apparently trying to get McDaniels because they see another potential all-star or borderline all-star eventually emerging. Naz looks good and I'm still high on Nowell.

I get out of bed in the morning as a Wolves fan knowing that the Wolves don't have to blow everything up and start over. I feel good knowing that trading Gobert would clear the way for the pieces on this team to fit much better together. And although the Wolves would get pennies on the dollar in return, they'd still get some valuable pennies, including one or two future first round picks, a good rotation player or two and probably more salary flexibility. That wouldn't mean much if starting from scratch, but it would mean a lot with KAT, Edwards, McDaniels, Reid, JMac and Anderson on the roster with Minott and Garza in the fold as well. We were 10 games over .500 without Rudy or Anderson last season when Ant and McDaniels weren't playing nearly as well as they are now and those two will continue to get better. We can move Rudy and keep Anderson as we move forward with KAT along with the improving Ant and McDaniels.

The path to feeling dark, bitter or just plain miserable as a Wolves fan is believing that this HAS to work with Gobert. It may still work out with Gobert. We'll have a much better sense based on how this team finishes once KAT returns. I don't think it will, but I acknowledge it might and, if so, that's great. But if it doesn't, it's OK to move on from Rudy. Let him turn 31 and decline on someone else's roster where he's perhaps a better fit. We'd be moving forward with KAT, Edwards, McDaniels, JMac, Kyle Anderson, Naz, Garza, and Mike Conley along with whoever we get for Rudy. That's not a bleak picture.

I wouldn't trade Rudy. Without him someone recently said we are 28th in defense. You are going no where with almost the worst defense in the NBA. I don't care how good the offense is. Wasn't Boston and GSW 1 and 2 on defense last year? I think you want to be at least top 10 to be competitive, not almost the worst. Naz and Garza are nearly unplayable due to their defense deficiencies.

Now if you do trade Rudy you need two centers. Really TC would be a God if he just kept Kessler and picked in Naz instead.