Minnesota Sports Forum

I'm not shattered Q. I just don't get too high after a handful of good games, when 9 years of inconsistency favors my opinion. I've always given him credit when he has a good game. But history is on my side when it comes to the fact that he will always regress for longer periods than that of which he will produce. I don't fall in love with the ebbs and flows of this team or Ricky. Doesn't make me a hater and most certainly not a homer like many on this board. It just makes me a realist.
Not a single fan on here would bet money on Ricky on a game to game basis. At his age how much improvement do you expect to see? It's just realistic expectations.
Explain how two separate teams saw fit to move on from him and found themselves in the top of the division after. Meanwhile he finds himself back where he started making enough of a difference for a team that's a cellar dweller. At some point you have to look yourself in the mirror and realize maybe you're not a difference maker. Or fans should realize that at least .

I don't think you have to choose between Reid and Vando as they are different types of players. If Vando can be brought back on a cheap deal it should be done because he seems to be a rotation guy.

Meanwhile just for fun look up John Collins per 36 min stats compared to Naz Reid this year. I think it's possible Naz Reid turns into the level of player we are hoping to trade for. Maybe not Collins level but still a starter. Sometimes teams do move on from guys looking for a better solution and they should have just stuck with some of the guys they already had. It's easy to over value our own players but Reid is currently a nice player in his 2nd season a few months away from turning 22. What will he look like at the age of 23? Will he continue to improve?

Reid, Vando, and Jmac should all be locked in longterm as fast as possible. JMCD as soon as possible.

They all provide different elements to the game, and a smart coach can gameplan with that.

monsterpile wrote:I don't think you have to choose between Reid and Vando as they are different types of players. If Vando can be brought back on a cheap deal it should be done because he seems to be a rotation guy.

Meanwhile just for fun look up John Collins per 36 min stats compared to Naz Reid this year. I think it's possible Naz Reid turns into the level of player we are hoping to trade for. Maybe not Collins level but still a starter. Sometimes teams do move on from guys looking for a better solution and they should have just stuck with some of the guys they already had. It's easy to over value our own players but Reid is currently a nice player in his 2nd season a few months away from turning 22. What will he look like at the age of 23? Will he continue to improve?

I think Doper's point about choosing between Vando and Reid was that the Wolves will probably need to part with one of them to put together a deal that brings in what the team needs. Otherwise, I agree with you that, for the Wolves, they are complementary players and NOT redundant because they bring very different things to the table. As I noted, I'd like to keep both. What the Wolves need more than anything is a true defensive rim-protector to play alongside KAT. We don't have that sort of player on the roster, although McDaniels looks like he'll be a good shot-blocker and Vando can be a very good defender and rebounder, but not a shot-blocker.

TheFuture wrote:Reid, Vando, and Jmac should all be locked in longterm as fast as possible. JMCD as soon as possible.

They all provide different elements to the game, and a smart coach can gameplan with that.

That would be my preference, Future.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:I don't think you have to choose between Reid and Vando as they are different types of players. If Vando can be brought back on a cheap deal it should be done because he seems to be a rotation guy.

Meanwhile just for fun look up John Collins per 36 min stats compared to Naz Reid this year. I think it's possible Naz Reid turns into the level of player we are hoping to trade for. Maybe not Collins level but still a starter. Sometimes teams do move on from guys looking for a better solution and they should have just stuck with some of the guys they already had. It's easy to over value our own players but Reid is currently a nice player in his 2nd season a few months away from turning 22. What will he look like at the age of 23? Will he continue to improve?

I think Doper's point about choosing between Vando and Reid was that the Wolves will probably need to part with one of them to put together a deal that brings in what the team needs. Otherwise, I agree with you that, for the Wolves, they are complementary players and NOT redundant because they bring very different things to the table. As I noted, I'd like to keep both. What the Wolves need more than anything is a true defensive rim-protector to play alongside KAT. We don't have that sort of player on the roster, although McDaniels looks like he'll be a good shot-blocker and Vando can be a very good defender and rebounder, but not a shot-blocker.

That's a good point Lip. I guess in my mind Vando is a RFA so while a sign and trade is an option I don't exactly see him as much of a trade chip but he does have positive value. I think we agree that we would rather re-sign him for a cheap deal than deal him.

If you want a defensive rim protector I guess that means you are out on adding Collins? :)

Big rim protecting center...Let's go back a bit in time as a few of us talked about whether or not they would have liked to have acquired Clint Capela in the Covington Deal. I personally would have been happy to bring him on but I could see the rationale in not doing it. I don't remember exactly the valuation of Capela in that deal but let's say he was worth a 1st round pick so we could have had him for either Beasley or the first round pick that became #15. Right now either of those assets instead of Capela is looking like it might have been worthwhile to acquire them instead. Beasley is a terrific asset. Having that draft pick gave the Wolves options in the 2020 draft. If I had to choose between being able to select McDaniels (chosen after Bolmaro) and Capella it's not an easy decision but I'll take McDaniels especially considering how much cheaper he is. Of course I should be comparing Capela to Bolmaro but the Rubio deal did allow us to move up and we picked McDaniels so I'm basically saying how much I value him going forward here. Bolmaro is an uncertain but as this thread has pointed out a likely rising asset.

Meanwhile Capela when healthy has some very sexy defensive advanced stats...which also keep me a little skeptical about Collins supposed defensive improvement. Somehow Capela turns only 27 in a few days and clearly would have helped the Wolves this season as well as for a couple more. His rebounding makes me feel better about Collins numbers there going down somewhat in that area. Ultimately what we got back in that Covington deal is looking pretty solid at this point even with Resigning Juancho liking like a meh move at best but it was only for 2 years and he isn't totally worthless. I'm as big of a KBD fan as anyone but Vando looks like a guy that I would rather have especially now that we have McDaniels a younger much more intriguing version of KBD.

At this point it seems like legit starting PFs are harder to find than worthwhile centers. One thing that sets Capela apart other than just being a really good player in general is his rebounding. Some other guys that have some defensive abilities that might come with a much smaller price tag are kinda meh in this area like Noel. If the Wolves can find their own somewhat undervalued big it could really help. Idk if Hassan Whiteside is a bad idea in terms of what kind of guy he is but a big dude like that would be kinda awesome even if we only payed him 15-20mins a night. I'd like to find a Noel, Holmes or Wood type guy but Whiteside on a vet min deal might be a good move.

I'm probably the biggest Rubio supporter here, so it won't be surprising that I think it's important that we bring him back for the final year of his contract, and even beyond that if after he has made millions he is willing to come back at a vet minimum. You guys know I favor overall impact on the court over hollow stats, and players like Rubio who consistently make their team outscore the other have a value that goes far beyond measures like shooting percentage (a measure Ricky always does poorly in). Rubio again this year was a positive influence on the court, second only to KAT in on/off. The next 3 best on the team were Vando, Ant and Jaden...not surprising to me, because I would agree that they were 3 of our best overall contributors this year. Dlo improved as the year went on and actually showed me he has the potential to be a positive contributor, but he still finished the year with his customary negative on/off. His improvement during the year however was one of the most positive factors in the final weeks of the season. I would still like to see Rosas move him for value, but I agree with others that will not happen...I'm more optimistic though that he can help this team next year.

I'm not opposed to moving Ricky, but I just don't know that we could get something in return for him that would make us better. So absent a must-do deal, Ricky would be my starting PG next year. I also don't hold out much hope for trading players most here do not like...such as Juancho and Culver. Fans often talk about "packaging" players of low value in exchange for a higher value player, but it never works out that way...generally it's just a futile plan to get rid of your garbage. I think we are stuck with Culver and Juancho for one more season. because neither is going to be attractive to another team.

Whether we keep our pick this year (unlikely after our stirring victories over G-Leaguers Orlando and Detroit) will determine what moves Rosas tries to make this summer. My hope is still that we beat the odds and keep the pick, and put Mobley next to KAT along with Ant, Dlo and Rubio. But if we don't keep our pick, I really expect Rosas to go after a 2-way PF like Collins or a rim-protecting center allowing KAT to play a stretch 4. Atlanta is going to require a lot in return for Collins, and anything short of names like Dlo, Rubio and Beasley won't work. Ultimately though I don't think Rosas has the assets to get a Collins deal done, and it's more likely he moves a Beasley or a Rubio for a defensive center.

Will we be good next year? Depends. If we lose our pick this year and don't improve next year, the consolation prize would be a lottery pick in a stacked 2022 draft. But I suspect the improvement in KAT, Ant and Dlo this year along with role players like Vando, Jaden and Reid means we make the playoffs next year even if Rosas does nothing offseason to improve the roster. We're all hungry for success here, so a 45 win year and a first round playoff exit might feel pretty good.

Lots of words here, but my takeaway is the same as Q's...at the end of a very poor season, we can take some solace from the fact that some key players have improved and asset values have increased.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:I don't think you have to choose between Reid and Vando as they are different types of players. If Vando can be brought back on a cheap deal it should be done because he seems to be a rotation guy.

Meanwhile just for fun look up John Collins per 36 min stats compared to Naz Reid this year. I think it's possible Naz Reid turns into the level of player we are hoping to trade for. Maybe not Collins level but still a starter. Sometimes teams do move on from guys looking for a better solution and they should have just stuck with some of the guys they already had. It's easy to over value our own players but Reid is currently a nice player in his 2nd season a few months away from turning 22. What will he look like at the age of 23? Will he continue to improve?

I think Doper's point about choosing between Vando and Reid was that the Wolves will probably need to part with one of them to put together a deal that brings in what the team needs. Otherwise, I agree with you that, for the Wolves, they are complementary players and NOT redundant because they bring very different things to the table. As I noted, I'd like to keep both. What the Wolves need more than anything is a true defensive rim-protector to play alongside KAT. We don't have that sort of player on the roster, although McDaniels looks like he'll be a good shot-blocker and Vando can be a very good defender and rebounder, but not a shot-blocker.

I agree Reid and Vando are complimentary. Unfortunately, we have 7 or 8 players on our roster who are complimentary which is where the redundancy is. My point is we need to move to having fewer, more well rounded players, than a large number of players we are paying for their complimentary skills. We still need a starting 4. The rotating of McDaniels (who I believe is a 3), Vando, Juancho, sometimes Reid and Josh (who is a 2) is taking 4 roster spots to ineffectively address what we need. If we get a starting 4, there are very few minutes for Vando and Reid, becuase I believe McDaniels will continue to get spot minutes at the 4.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:I don't think you have to choose between Reid and Vando as they are different types of players. If Vando can be brought back on a cheap deal it should be done because he seems to be a rotation guy.

Meanwhile just for fun look up John Collins per 36 min stats compared to Naz Reid this year. I think it's possible Naz Reid turns into the level of player we are hoping to trade for. Maybe not Collins level but still a starter. Sometimes teams do move on from guys looking for a better solution and they should have just stuck with some of the guys they already had. It's easy to over value our own players but Reid is currently a nice player in his 2nd season a few months away from turning 22. What will he look like at the age of 23? Will he continue to improve?

I think Doper's point about choosing between Vando and Reid was that the Wolves will probably need to part with one of them to put together a deal that brings in what the team needs. Otherwise, I agree with you that, for the Wolves, they are complementary players and NOT redundant because they bring very different things to the table. As I noted, I'd like to keep both. What the Wolves need more than anything is a true defensive rim-protector to play alongside KAT. We don't have that sort of player on the roster, although McDaniels looks like he'll be a good shot-blocker and Vando can be a very good defender and rebounder, but not a shot-blocker.

That's a good point Lip. I guess in my mind Vando is a RFA so while a sign and trade is an option I don't exactly see him as much of a trade chip but he does have positive value. I think we agree that we would rather re-sign him for a cheap deal than deal him.

If you want a defensive rim protector I guess that means you are out on adding Collins? :)

Big rim protecting center...Let's go back a bit in time as a few of us talked about whether or not they would have liked to have acquired Clint Capela in the Covington Deal. I personally would have been happy to bring him on but I could see the rationale in not doing it. I don't remember exactly the valuation of Capela in that deal but let's say he was worth a 1st round pick so we could have had him for either Beasley or the first round pick that became #15. Right now either of those assets instead of Capela is looking like it might have been worthwhile to acquire them instead. Beasley is a terrific asset. Having that draft pick gave the Wolves options in the 2020 draft. If I had to choose between being able to select McDaniels (chosen after Bolmaro) and Capella it's not an easy decision but I'll take McDaniels especially considering how much cheaper he is. Of course I should be comparing Capela to Bolmaro but the Rubio deal did allow us to move up and we picked McDaniels so I'm basically saying how much I value him going forward here. Bolmaro is an uncertain but as this thread has pointed out a likely rising asset.

Meanwhile Capela when healthy has some very sexy defensive advanced stats...which also keep me a little skeptical about Collins supposed defensive improvement. Somehow Capela turns only 27 in a few days and clearly would have helped the Wolves this season as well as for a couple more. His rebounding makes me feel better about Collins numbers there going down somewhat in that area. Ultimately what we got back in that Covington deal is looking pretty solid at this point even with Resigning Juancho liking like a meh move at best but it was only for 2 years and he isn't totally worthless. I'm as big of a KBD fan as anyone but Vando looks like a guy that I would rather have especially now that we have McDaniels a younger much more intriguing version of KBD.

At this point it seems like legit starting PFs are harder to find than worthwhile centers. One thing that sets Capela apart other than just being a really good player in general is his rebounding. Some other guys that have some defensive abilities that might come with a much smaller price tag are kinda meh in this area like Noel. If the Wolves can find their own somewhat undervalued big it could really help. Idk if Hassan Whiteside is a bad idea in terms of what kind of guy he is but a big dude like that would be kinda awesome even if we only payed him 15-20mins a night. I'd like to find a Noel, Holmes or Wood type guy but Whiteside on a vet min deal might be a good move.

Great points, Monster. I've always thought Capela was the perfect fit for the Wolves and I was disappointed he didn't come here as part of the Covington deal. Having said that, you raise a good question if that would have meant not having the pick to get McDaniels. As you pointed out, Collins really isn't my guy for the Wolves even though I think he's a great player. If we can deal Beasley and Culver for Myles Turner, I'd do that deal. If not, I think you're right that the defensive big we need will probably have to come through free agency.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:I don't think you have to choose between Reid and Vando as they are different types of players. If Vando can be brought back on a cheap deal it should be done because he seems to be a rotation guy.

Meanwhile just for fun look up John Collins per 36 min stats compared to Naz Reid this year. I think it's possible Naz Reid turns into the level of player we are hoping to trade for. Maybe not Collins level but still a starter. Sometimes teams do move on from guys looking for a better solution and they should have just stuck with some of the guys they already had. It's easy to over value our own players but Reid is currently a nice player in his 2nd season a few months away from turning 22. What will he look like at the age of 23? Will he continue to improve?

I think Doper's point about choosing between Vando and Reid was that the Wolves will probably need to part with one of them to put together a deal that brings in what the team needs. Otherwise, I agree with you that, for the Wolves, they are complementary players and NOT redundant because they bring very different things to the table. As I noted, I'd like to keep both. What the Wolves need more than anything is a true defensive rim-protector to play alongside KAT. We don't have that sort of player on the roster, although McDaniels looks like he'll be a good shot-blocker and Vando can be a very good defender and rebounder, but not a shot-blocker.

That's a good point Lip. I guess in my mind Vando is a RFA so while a sign and trade is an option I don't exactly see him as much of a trade chip but he does have positive value. I think we agree that we would rather re-sign him for a cheap deal than deal him.

If you want a defensive rim protector I guess that means you are out on adding Collins? :)

Big rim protecting center...Let's go back a bit in time as a few of us talked about whether or not they would have liked to have acquired Clint Capela in the Covington Deal. I personally would have been happy to bring him on but I could see the rationale in not doing it. I don't remember exactly the valuation of Capela in that deal but let's say he was worth a 1st round pick so we could have had him for either Beasley or the first round pick that became #15. Right now either of those assets instead of Capela is looking like it might have been worthwhile to acquire them instead. Beasley is a terrific asset. Having that draft pick gave the Wolves options in the 2020 draft. If I had to choose between being able to select McDaniels (chosen after Bolmaro) and Capella it's not an easy decision but I'll take McDaniels especially considering how much cheaper he is. Of course I should be comparing Capela to Bolmaro but the Rubio deal did allow us to move up and we picked McDaniels so I'm basically saying how much I value him going forward here. Bolmaro is an uncertain but as this thread has pointed out a likely rising asset.

Meanwhile Capela when healthy has some very sexy defensive advanced stats...which also keep me a little skeptical about Collins supposed defensive improvement. Somehow Capela turns only 27 in a few days and clearly would have helped the Wolves this season as well as for a couple more. His rebounding makes me feel better about Collins numbers there going down somewhat in that area. Ultimately what we got back in that Covington deal is looking pretty solid at this point even with Resigning Juancho liking like a meh move at best but it was only for 2 years and he isn't totally worthless. I'm as big of a KBD fan as anyone but Vando looks like a guy that I would rather have especially now that we have McDaniels a younger much more intriguing version of KBD.

At this point it seems like legit starting PFs are harder to find than worthwhile centers. One thing that sets Capela apart other than just being a really good player in general is his rebounding. Some other guys that have some defensive abilities that might come with a much smaller price tag are kinda meh in this area like Noel. If the Wolves can find their own somewhat undervalued big it could really help. Idk if Hassan Whiteside is a bad idea in terms of what kind of guy he is but a big dude like that would be kinda awesome even if we only payed him 15-20mins a night. I'd like to find a Noel, Holmes or Wood type guy but Whiteside on a vet min deal might be a good move.

Great points, Monster. I've always thought Capela was the perfect fit for the Wolves and I was disappointed he didn't come here as part of the Covington deal. Having said that, you raise a good question if that would have meant not having the pick to get McDaniels. As you pointed out, Collins really isn't my guy for the Wolves even though I think he's a great player. If we can deal Beasley and Culver for Myles Turner, I'd do that deal. If not, I think you're right that the defensive big we need will probably have to come through free agency.

Are you still willing to deal for Turner even with that injury or are you more thinking theoretically?