Minnesota Sports Forum

bleedspeed177 wrote:Anyone else think that we should move Shabazz if we get Wiggins and Young?

I don't think we should move him just to move him based on acquiring Wiggins and Young. I'd move Shabazz for the right return, but I'm not sure what we could get for him at this point. I can say that Flip loves Shabazz and will be very reluctant to trade him.

I was basing it trading him off hearing Flip say teams call about him. If that is the case I think we should listen. If we can get something that fits better for the team and helps I think we should consider it. I really think having Young on this team will help Shabazz see how he can work on his game. Love how Young seems to always add something.

How would people rank TThompson, ABennett, and TYoung

I would rank them
[list]
[*] TYoung
[*] TThompson
[*] ABennett
[/list]

As it sounds more and more like Thad Young will be coming our way, and as I read so many glowing reports about his game in this forum, it's probably time for a little reality check about Young. Here are some of the comments I have read about Thad on this board the past two days:

"really good"
"Incredibly underrated" (remember, he's paid $9.5 million a year!)
"extremely efficient" (Young ranked 55th among PF's in TS% last year...that's not efficient)

There are things I like about Thad and I will list them below, but I hope we can all agree that the above three comments are irrational exuberance at its finest. In another post, I saw Paul Millsap used as a comp for determining Young's contract value. Come on, Paul Millsap? I will let you guys research Millsap's stats compared to Young's and decide for yourself if they should be mentioned in the same breath.

What do I like about Young? Frankly, a lot of intangibles, and those matter to me. I would call him the Anti-Love. Love put up draw-dropping stats, but was by all reports a subpar teammate. Young is just the opposite. His stats rank him near the bottom of the PF pack in many key measures, but most fans that know his game say he delivers in intangible areas. He is reportedly a tireless worker and never takes plays off, and is also known as an outstanding teammate. After watching Love for 6 years, I don't underestimate the importance of those qualities, although they cannot be measured well.

I also like his ability to create turnovers (especially 2 seasons ago), and his athleticism. He also seems to be able to put the ball on the court with his left hand rather adeptly, although he doesn't seem to have a right hand...in the highlight video many of us watched yesterday, I think I only saw him score once going to his right.

So, except for steals, most of the reasons I like Young are intangible in nature. Unfortunately, when it comes down to reviewing his production, I don't like him very much. This post is getting lengthy, so I'll cover his numbers in the next post.

Go look at Millsap's stats previous to him signing that two-year deal with Atlanta. They ARE comparable to Young's, no matter how anti-Thad you are. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=millspa01&y1=2013&p2=youngth01&y2=2013)

I know you're disappointed that Bennett may not end up in Minnesota, but we're getting a good player (certainly better than Bennett) to be our power forward. And by the way most, including yourself, talk about Young, he definitely is underrated. He's no star, but he's not a "bottom of the PF pack" player at all.

As I mentioned in a post yesterday, unless my PF is a multi-faceted all-star like Love, I at least want my PF to do three things well: score efficiently, rebound, and defend. Unfortunately, Young doesn't rank well among PF's in any of these categories. I see TS% as a good indicator of scoring efficiency, and Young's 51.2% ranked him 55th among PF's last year. Others have said to throw out last year because Young was overused, but his career average of 53.9% would have only ranked 40th last year...he certainly cannot be described as an efficient scorer. We all know about his rebounding issues, but his rebounding rate last year of 9.5% ranked 67th among PF's...67th! And his career average is not much better...only 10.5%, which would have ranked him 59th among PF's last year. Finally, his defensive rating was substandard at 108 in his most recent season.

I'm not going to do a Player A and Player B thing, because they are overdone. But Thad Young's career stats are remarkably similar to the numbers Derrick Williams put up during his time with the Wolves...yes, Derrick Williams! Now don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that Young is the same player Williams is, although they are both athletic, undersized 4's. Because of the intangibles I listed in my previous post, I much prefer watching Thadeus. He looks like he cares and consistently works hard. But advanced and other stats do tell a story, so let's compare Young's career numbers with Williams' numbers while he was here.


TS% Young-53.9% Williams-51.3%

Rebounding rate Young-10.5% Williams-11.6%

D rating Young-106 Williams-107

Per-36 stats:

Points Young-16.4 Williams-16.2

Rebounds Young- 6.3 Williams-7.4

Assists Young-1.6 Williams-.9

Steals Young- 1.6 Williams-.8

Blocks Young- .5 Williams- .7

Turnovers Young-1.7 Williams-1.9


There are the numbers. Remarkably even...I doubt that anyone can find a better comp using just production than Derrick Williams. And again, I am NOT saying he is DW...just that their stats are similar.

So, but all means Flip...go out and get Young because he is a good guy who we will enjoy cheering for. But please don't give up too much for him...hopefully just surplus wings. But after looking at his numbers and how they stack up against other PF's, I can't understand giving up either Bennett or a first rounder for him.

And let's not kid ourselves on this board. Young is a hard worker, but he is what he is, and his production will always rank in the bottom quartile.

Okay, maybe not the results you wanted to see. But I put a lot of work into this on a gorgeous day here in SoCal. Can I get a thank you :) ?

Camden wrote:Go look at Millsap's stats previous to him signing that two-year deal with Atlanta. They ARE comparable to Young's, no matter how anti-Thad you are. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=millspa01&y1=2013&p2=youngth01&y2=2013)

I know you're disappointed that Bennett may not end up in Minnesota, but we're getting a good player (certainly better than Bennett) to be our power forward. And by the way most, including yourself, talk about Young, he definitely is underrated. He's no star, but he's not a "bottom of the PF pack" player at all.

Cam, take a look at the stats I just posted, and tell me how you can say he's not bottom of the pack. He scored some points last year, but there weren't many other options on Philly and he didn't do it very efficiently. 55th in TS%, 67th in rebounding rate. Those are vital areas for a PF, and Thad just doesn't measure up. I am not anti-Thad and really appreciate some of his "hustle stats" as you posted yesterday (steals, defensive plays). I want him on my team, but I don't want Flip to give up much for a guy with his stats, and I'm trying to provide some balance here. He's a fine role player, much like Brewer, but let's not make him out to be something he isn't.

longstrangetrip wrote:

Camden wrote:Go look at Millsap's stats previous to him signing that two-year deal with Atlanta. They ARE comparable to Young's, no matter how anti-Thad you are. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=millspa01&y1=2013&p2=youngth01&y2=2013)

I know you're disappointed that Bennett may not end up in Minnesota, but we're getting a good player (certainly better than Bennett) to be our power forward. And by the way most, including yourself, talk about Young, he definitely is underrated. He's no star, but he's not a "bottom of the PF pack" player at all.

Cam, take a look at the stats I just posted, and tell me how you can say he's not bottom of the pack. He scored some points last year, but there weren't many other options on Philly and he didn't do it very efficiently. 55th in TS%, 67th in rebounding rate. Those are vital areas for a PF, and Thad just doesn't measure up. I am not anti-Thad and really appreciate some of his "hustle stats" as you posted yesterday (steals, defensive plays). I want him on my team, but I don't want Flip to give up much for a guy with his stats, and I'm trying to provide some balance here. He's a fine role player, much like Brewer, but let's not make him out to be something he isn't.

That whole Sixers team ranks bottom of the league statistically. We can talk about his TS% and rebounding rate from last year until we're blue in the face, but at some point you're going to need to use your eyes and watch the guy play ball. I take it from your posts that you haven't watched Young very much, if it all, and that's why you're stunned that a player from the Sixers with his advanced stats has value. And yes, you seem to be very anti-Thad. He can't play defense, he can't shoot, he can't rebound, he's undersized, he's being compared to Derrick Williams when he has no reason to be, etc. These are the things you have been saying about him.

What exactly is giving up "much" for Young? Bennett? Please, let's not get back into another debate about the star potential you think he has. A first rounder from Cleveland? Memphis or Miami? All three picks look to be mid-to-bottom of the round, unless Gasol leaves Memphis in the future, but that's not guaranteed.

Keep in mind the last time you tried to "provide some balance", you said Cleveland would be unwise to trade Andrew Wiggins and pieces for Kevin Love, which I will not be able to forget for some amount of time. If you don't like Young, then that's fine, but please don't play it off as providing balance as if me or other posters are hyping Young up without reason.

Thank you, LST, for all that work comparing D-Will and Young on a beautiful SoCal day! (it's a beautiful day in the Twin Cities, too)

Good thing you didn't compare Young to Carl Landry. That would really get Cam on the defensive! ;-)

Sine when did Cam ever use the eyeball test on a player? He more than anyone uses numbers and stats of all kinds to support his arguments. Guess this is his lone exception? :)