Teams that are competitive without hiting the home run

[kekgeek]

Oklahoma City, Chicago, Portland, Los Angeles Clippers, Washington, etc.

So many other examples trump yours, Q. High picks, when used correctly, build teams more often than free agency and diamonds in the rough.

I would amend your statement there to, "draft picks, when used correctly....."

We have the last two #1 picks on our roster plus a handful of other lottery picks. We are not lacking in high-priced lottery picks, that's for sure. The only reason we keep on getting them is because we keep on sucking. That's actually not a good thing. So color me skeptical when I hear things like, "If we get a top 3 pick this year we will be set!".

And one of those #1 picks wasn't ours at the time of selection or else you might be thinking differently. What if we had Nerlens Noel or Victor Oladipo right now? We'll never know because Cleveland messed that up so I don't think it's fair to hold that against Minnesota.

Wiggins, Dieng and Muhammad have shown plenty of promise as well as production. LaVine may or may not work out, but at pick #13, it was a homerun swing that has years until we know if it was a hit or miss.

Also, that wasn't my point. My point is that most of these playoff teams hit on a top pick who became a franchise player. How often does one find a franchise player below the fifth or so pick?

Kobe, Dirk, Curry, Love, Wade, George, Lillard

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Oklahoma City, Chicago, Portland, Los Angeles Clippers, Washington, etc.

So many other examples trump yours, Q. High picks, when used correctly, build teams more often than free agency and diamonds in the rough.

I would amend your statement there to, "draft picks, when used correctly....."

We have the last two #1 picks on our roster plus a handful of other lottery picks. We are not lacking in high-priced lottery picks, that's for sure. The only reason we keep on getting them is because we keep on sucking. That's actually not a good thing. So color me skeptical when I hear things like, "If we get a top 3 pick this year we will be set!".

And one of those #1 picks wasn't ours at the time of selection or else you might be thinking differently. What if we had Nerlens Noel or Victor Oladipo right now? We'll never know because Cleveland messed that up so I don't think it's fair to hold that against Minnesota.

Wiggins, Dieng and Muhammad have shown plenty of promise as well as production. LaVine may or may not work out, but at pick #13, it was a homerun swing that has years until we know if it was a hit or miss.

Also, that wasn't my point. My point is that most of these playoff teams hit on a top pick who became a franchise player. How often does one find a franchise player below the fifth or so pick?

Kobe, Dirk, Curry, Love, Wade, George, Lillard

Good list.

And Cam, I'm not too worried about falling out of the Top 5 at this point anyway. What we all considered a D-League squad in Philly a couple of months ago has now blown by us in the win column and appears to be playing some pretty inspired defense, something our coaching staff and team is allergic to.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Oklahoma City, Chicago, Portland, Los Angeles Clippers, Washington, etc.

So many other examples trump yours, Q. High picks, when used correctly, build teams more often than free agency and diamonds in the rough.

I would amend your statement there to, "draft picks, when used correctly....."

We have the last two #1 picks on our roster plus a handful of other lottery picks. We are not lacking in high-priced lottery picks, that's for sure. The only reason we keep on getting them is because we keep on sucking. That's actually not a good thing. So color me skeptical when I hear things like, "If we get a top 3 pick this year we will be set!".

And one of those #1 picks wasn't ours at the time of selection or else you might be thinking differently. What if we had Nerlens Noel or Victor Oladipo right now? We'll never know because Cleveland messed that up so I don't think it's fair to hold that against Minnesota.

Wiggins, Dieng and Muhammad have shown plenty of promise as well as production. LaVine may or may not work out, but at pick #13, it was a homerun swing that has years until we know if it was a hit or miss.

Also, that wasn't my point. My point is that most of these playoff teams hit on a top pick who became a franchise player. How often does one find a franchise player below the fifth or so pick?

Kobe, Dirk, Curry, Love, Wade, George, Lillard

Kobe - 13th
Curry - 7th
George - 10th
Lillard - 6th.

Garnett - 5th
Iverson- 1st
R.Allen - 5th
Duncan - 1st
P.Gasol - 3rd
Ming - 1st
LeBron - 1st
Anthony - 3rd
Bosh - 4th
Wade - 5th
Howard - 1st
D.Williams - 3rd
Chris Paul - 4th
Aldridge - 2nd
Durant - 2nd
Horford - 3rd
Rose - 1st
Westbrook - 4th
Love - 5th
Griffin - 1st
Harden - 3rd
Wall - 1st
Cousins - 5th
Irving - 1st
Davis - 1st


Lot of high picks turn into franchise players. The point is that it's easier to find franchise guys at the top rather than at the bottom of the top-10. So, while it's been tough to watch this year's team, I know there's a chance we might get something good out of it. I think most fans understand and accept that considering this year was all about development anyway, and I've seen our young guys develop. Now we have the second half of the season to hopefully see them develop with veteran pieces. We may just have our cake and eat it too.

[kekgeek]

Oklahoma City, Chicago, Portland, Los Angeles Clippers, Washington, etc.

So many other examples trump yours, Q. High picks, when used correctly, build teams more often than free agency and diamonds in the rough.

I would amend your statement there to, "draft picks, when used correctly....."

We have the last two #1 picks on our roster plus a handful of other lottery picks. We are not lacking in high-priced lottery picks, that's for sure. The only reason we keep on getting them is because we keep on sucking. That's actually not a good thing. So color me skeptical when I hear things like, "If we get a top 3 pick this year we will be set!".

And one of those #1 picks wasn't ours at the time of selection or else you might be thinking differently. What if we had Nerlens Noel or Victor Oladipo right now? We'll never know because Cleveland messed that up so I don't think it's fair to hold that against Minnesota.

Wiggins, Dieng and Muhammad have shown plenty of promise as well as production. LaVine may or may not work out, but at pick #13, it was a homerun swing that has years until we know if it was a hit or miss.

Also, that wasn't my point. My point is that most of these playoff teams hit on a top pick who became a franchise player. How often does one find a franchise player below the fifth or so pick?

Kobe, Dirk, Curry, Love, Wade, George, Lillard

Kobe - 13th
Curry - 7th
George - 10th
Lillard - 6th.

Garnett - 5th
Iverson- 1st
R.Allen - 5th
Duncan - 1st
P.Gasol - 3rd
Ming - 1st
LeBron - 1st
Anthony - 3rd
Bosh - 4th
Wade - 5th
Howard - 1st
D.Williams - 3rd
Chris Paul - 4th
Aldridge - 2nd
Durant - 2nd
Horford - 3rd
Rose - 1st
Westbrook - 4th
Love - 5th
Griffin - 1st
Harden - 3rd
Wall - 1st
Cousins - 5th
Irving - 1st
Davis - 1st


Lot of high picks turn into franchise players. The point is that it's easier to find franchise guys at the top rather than at the bottom of the top-10. So, while it's been tough to watch this year's team, I know there's a chance we might get something good out of it. I think most fans understand and accept that considering this year was all about development anyway, and I've seen our young guys develop. Now we have the second half of the season to hopefully see them develop with veteran pieces. We may just have our cake and eat it too.

I am in agreement with you Cam, I was just pointed out it can be done. Also I want to say after this year I don't want to be terrible, I think if we have our core (Rubio, Wiggins, Lavine, Bazz, top 5 pick, Dieng) I think we need to find players that fit next to them and I think the Young guys need to learn how to win. While we find players in the mid first round to become a great teams, ala George/Hibbert for Pacers, Kawhi for the Spurs, Butler for the Bulls, Thompson for the Warriors, Teague for the Hawks, etc..

[MikkeMan]

Bogut was a #1 overall pick and their contention pretty much relies on his ability to be healthy in the playoffs.

But Golden State obtained Bogut by trading Monta Ellis that was originally 2nd round pick.

[MikkeMan]

R.Allen - 5th
P.Gasol - 3rd
D.Williams - 3rd
Horford - 3rd
Irving - 1st

If we list Ray Allen, Pau Gasol, Deron Williams, Horford and Irving in 2nd group, we should list at least following players in first group in addition of Kobe, Lillard, George, Nowitzki and Curry:

Michael Finley 21st
Peja Stojakovic 14th
Steve Nash 15th
Jermaine O'Neal 17th
Tracy McGrady 9th
Paul Pierce 10th
Rashard Lewis 32nd
Shawn Marion 9th
Ron Artest 16th
Andrei Kirilenko 24th
Manu Ginobili 57th
Michael Redd 43rd
Joe Johnson 10th
Zach Randolph 19th
Tony Parker 28th
Gilbert Arenas 30th
Amar'e Stoudemire 9th
Carlos Boozer 34th
David West 18th
Andre Iguodala 9th
Al Jefferson 15th
Andrew Bynum 8th
Monta Ellis 40th
Brandon Roy 6th
Rajon Rondo 21st
Kyle Lowry 24th
Joakim Noah 9th
Marc Gasol 48th
Brook Lopez 10th
Serge Ibaka 24th
Gordon Hayward 9th
Klay Thompson 11th
Kawhi Leonard 15th
Nikola Vucevic 16th
Jimmy Butler 30th
Andre Drummond 9th

There are of course some notables also missing from 2nd list but not so many as from 1st group:

Rasheed Wallace 4th
Stephen Marbury 4th
Chauncey Billups 3rd
Vince Carter 5th
Elton Brand 1st
Baron Davis 3rd
Tyson Chandler 2nd
Derrick Favors 3rd

[WildWolf2813]

I want them to win for their own psyche. Losing beats people down. Look at the arena. It's a morgue. That has to change.

With that said, this isn't a good draft to use as the rallying cry to assume Flip will find a transformational gem.

[GymRat [enjin:6592663]]

I want them to win for their own psyche. Losing beats people down. Look at the arena. It's a morgue. That has to change.

With that said, this isn't a good draft to use as the rallying cry to assume Flip will find a transformational gem.

I agree that losing this much can be draining, but I hope our players are stronger mentally than those we've had in the past. I don't see anyone out on the court moping around. I see guys strapping it up every game and trying to win. They hate losing, and I love how hard the kids are trying to stop it. To me, the indifference comes more from the effort of the vets.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I want them to win for their own psyche. Losing beats people down. Look at the arena. It's a morgue. That has to change.

With that said, this isn't a good draft to use as the rallying cry to assume Flip will find a transformational gem.

I agree that losing this much can be draining, but I hope our players are stronger mentally than those we've had in the past. I don't see anyone out on the court moping around. I see guys strapping it up every game and trying to win. They hate losing, and I love how hard the kids are trying to stop it. To me, the indifference comes more from the effort of the vets.

Not so sure I agree. I don't always see Wiggins, LaVine, Bennett, Dieng, or Shabazz going all out. I'll give Wiggins and Dieng a bit of a pass because these guys are going to battle every night for 30-35+ minutes against physically stronger players in many cases. Shabazz was going all out when he was coming off the bench, but he slowed down a tick since getting starter's minutes, which again, is understandable. LaVine and especially Bennett have few excuses. LaVine especially could put a ton more pressure on opposing PGs with his length and quick feet, but he generally fails to do so and often gets swallowed up by ball screens. And we've discussed Bennett ad nauseum in terms of his lack of consistent effort. There is no question he could be much more of a factor for us if he got himself into a higher gear.

There is really only one player that went 110%, 100% of the time this year, and that was Corey Brewer. It was often wasted activity, but it was all-out effort nonetheless.

[MikkeMan]

When I went through all players that have been drafter 1995 and after I got the feeling that it has been tougher lately to find any real star players with late 1st or 2nd round pick than it used to be.

So I did some calculations and based on that it has been quite rare that real super stars would have been found outside top5. Maybe scouting has improved during last 20 years.

1995-99:
Top 5 picks have got totally 16 1st team, 12 2nd team and 11 3rd team nominations
19 1st all defensive team, and 11 2nd team nominations
Rest of 1st round picks have got: 20 1st team, 15 2nd team, 15 3rd team nominations
13 1st all defensive team, and 8 2nd team nominations
2nd rounders have got: two 3rd team and one 2nd defensive team nominations

- Duncan and Garnett were those real super stars that were drafted in top5. Kobe, Nowitzki and Nash were gems that were drafted outside top5.

2000-04:
Top 5 picks have got totally 15 1st team, 12 2nd team and 5 3rd team
and 10 1st all defensive team, and 7 2nd team nominations
Rest of 1st round picks have got: one 1st team, 6 2nd team, 15 3rd team
and 4 1st all defensive team, and 10 2nd team nominations
2nd rounders have got: one 2nd team, 4 3rd team and one 2nd defensive team nominations

- LeBron, Wade and Howard were real super stars that were drafted in top5. It seems that no real super star was found outside top5. Lone 1st team nomination outside of top5 pick went to Amare Stoudemire,

2005-2009
Top 5 picks have got totally 10 1st team, 12 2nd team and 13 3rd team
three 1st all defensive team and two 2nd team nominations
Rest of 1st round picks have got: one 1st team, three 2nd team and three 3rd team
4 1st all defensive team, and 4 2nd team nominations
2nd rounders have got: one 2nd team, one 3rd team and two 2nd defensive team nominations

- Durant, Chis Paul and maybe Harden were real super stars that were drafted in top5. It seems that no real super star was found outside top5. Lone 1st team nomination outside of top5 pick went to Joakim Noah last year.

Finding real stars from 2nd round seems to have been quite hard already long time.