CoolBreeze's 2 Things I didn't Like Plus 1 - Preseason Edition

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SameOldNudityDrew
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I didn't Like Plus 1 - Preseason Edition

Post by SameOldNudityDrew »

AbeVigodaLive wrote:
KG4Ever wrote:I really want to see Jarrett Culver break out this year. His 13 for 13 at the stripe gives me some hope. I never believed he'd continue to shoot as bad as he showed last year as free throw shooting in college is the same distance as the NBA and he wasn't horrible there. I hope Edwards shows better than what I expect. Edwards and Culver have the most upside of anyone other than KAT and the Wolves definitely need to hit on at least one of the two.



For reals. With how he was hitting the backboard before the rim on free throws last season... 13 - 13 is a real sign of progress.

Of everybody, I think he has the best upside THIS season. I don't think he'll ever be a star, but at least I can sort of imagine him developing into a 15/5/5 type of guy with solid defense.


I wonder how good Culver can ultimately be. I guess you never know because some guys can totally blow up and show you something you've never really seen from them before, and other guys just totally flame out with no explanation. But here's a quick attempt to look into Culver's possible future.

First, obviously, he has to improve his shooting. 40% FG, 30% 3PT, 46% FT. League averages are 46% FG, 36% 3PT, and 77% FT. Let's say he just gets halfway to average and shoots 43% FG, 33% 3PT, and (math math math) 62% FT. You'd expect he might take a couple more shots a game this year with that improvement, but he'll really be competing for shots with DLO, Beasley, and Edwards, so I'm not sure we can count on that. His FT% was so horrific last year, and even if he got it up to 62%, I'm still not sure I'd want him trying to draw more fouls. He only went to the line 2 times a game last year, mercifully. So on a superficial level, you could say his FT% didn't hurt us that much, but it may also be the case that he wasn't driving specifically because he knew going to the line wasn't a high percentage play. And I do think it would be good for him to be able to be a threat to attack the basket more, since his handles are at least ok. So I think improving his FT% might be the most useful thing to him as a player and us as a team if it helped give him the confidence to drive at times, even if only off of cuts more. So let's be a little optimistic and assume he can get his FT% up to 70% with 43% FG and 33% 3PT. That's still a subpar shooter, but 33% from 3 is enough to stretch the floor at least a bit if the guy is a willing shooter. That's still a more efficient shot (.99 PPS) than the league average 2 pointer at .92 PPS. Keep him on the floor with shooters and you can survive that. Now, that's all if he improves to being just a below average shooter, as opposed to the horrific one he is now. If he actually became an average shooter, then all the defense and some of the other skills he has are a plus.

So what are those other skills? Obviously, when you watch him play, it looks like he's a good man defender. I'd say really good. We need that on this team, especially with DLO and KAT as our cornerstones. He looks longer than Okogie and Edwards (Lip, can we get a wingspan check?), and he has the defensive flexibility to guard 1-3 at least, with maybe some smaller 4s out there. Could he become a real lockdown defender? A thinner Jimmy Butler? A taller, less intense Patrick Beverly? It's definitely possible. If he managed to become a league average 3 point shooter and a lockdown defender, then we're in business with a good 3 & D role player.

The last area of his game that could potentially give us more is the other things he does for us on the offensive end. I like his potential in the transition game. He does seem to do a decent job grabbing defensive rebounds and looking up the court to pass or push the ball. He's got the handles to do that and he's a willing passer. Now, he does have the size and basic offensive tools that you need to have as a bare minimum for a very good 2 way wing. He can handle and pass well for his size. And theoretically, that's the profile you want to see from a guy who could end up becoming a star wing IF he actually improves significantly in that area. Personally, I don't think his handles are quite good enough, and I just don't think he's quick enough to ever really become a star wing in that sense. But there are methodical players who were not super quick and who became very good wings. I'm thinking of Brandon Roy here or, if you have seen Cade Cunningham play, he's not the fastest guy in the world, but he just has a lot of all-around good skills and always seems to make good, patient decisions. I guess theoretically, Culver could move into that sort of territory in a best case scenario. I think more likely, he'll land somewhere around a rich-man's Kyle Anderson (a bit shorter) or maybe Nic Batum when he was not at his peak, but also not terrible Batum.

Since I doubt the star scenario would happen, I'll stick more with assuming he improves only somewhat in those offensive areas and focuses his major improvement on his shooting. In that case, in the half court offensively, he should not be the first option to initiate the offense, but he does have the passing and handles and length to be a guy you give it to to initiate some offense after the PG has tried it out. In terms of creating shots for others, our best players are probably: Rubio, JMAC (sadly, won't play much), DLO, and then . . . Edwards? Towns from the post? Basically, this team drops off significantly there. And that's where a guy like Culver could be helpful. Another guy who can handle the ball a bit AND create some shots for others. If you put him out there with DLO and Beasley, I can definitely see him being a decent drive and kick guy. Theoretically, Edwards should join that group as well, but it's still really early in the clock of his development yet, and I'd assume he'll be pretty inefficient in that respect this year. That's kind of why I like the idea of alternating Culver and Edwards on the court, since they could play similar roles as secondary playmakers out there. It makes more sense I think to start DLO, Beasley, Culver, and then lean on Rubio, Edwards, Okogie (with whatever 4s and 5s are shooting the 3 the best) for heavy minutes off the bench, with (yes) Culver, Okogie, and Edwards defending the 4 (out of necessity) when the matchup allows.

In the likeliest best case scenario, I could see Culver becoming a very good 3 & D guy who can also playmake a little. Probably not as good a shooter as Wes Matthews, but also a very good defender (with Michael Pietrus or Frank Nilikina size) but also with a bit of playmaking. That's not too bad. Not what you hope for with the 6th pick, not as good or as big as OG Anunoby (a great 3 & D guy I love), but with more playmaking.

The most likely scenario at this point is that he just becomes a (better) below average shooter and very good defender who you can more easily play in certain lineups and against certain teams. The defense is great, and you want to be able to put that on an opposing team's star, but the weak shooting makes that such a liability, so if this middle scenario came to pass, I think he'd be more like the guy you want to have the luxury to throw out there to shut down an offensive spark plug off the bench for the opposing side rather than the guy whose shooting woes you have to suffer through.

The worst case scenario is that we get what we see. Years ago, I would have been pulling for him to become a Trenton Hassell-type, but these days, if you can't space the floor, you really can't play much. So if that shooting doesn't improve significantly, I don't see much of a future for him. Let's hope those preseason FTs are a sign of things to come!
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Wolvesfan21
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I didn't Like Plus 1 - Preseason Edition

Post by Wolvesfan21 »

Culver reworked his shot over the time off. He'll be 35%+ 3P and 70%+ FT.

A lot of what he was struggling with was confidence and trying to rework his shot during the season. I can see him gaining confidence and excelling this season. Though I may be optimistic, I trust his work ethic and I trust his college numbers that he'll improve dramatically from last season.
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Lipoli390
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I didn't Like Plus 1 - Preseason Edition

Post by Lipoli390 »

Drew -

I agree that Culver looks longer than Okogie. That's because he's 2.25 inches caller than Okogie (6'5.25 v. 6'3). I also think Culver's thinner frame and longer neck makes the height differential seems even greater. But the reality is that Okogie is longer than Culver.

Here's their comparative length:

Wingspan: Okogie 7'0 v. Culver 6'9.5 (Okogie 2.5" greater)
Standing Reach: Okogie 8'6 v. Culver 8'4.5 (Okogie 1.5" greater)

Not a huge length different between the two, but edge to Okogie overall.

Okogie also has significantly bigger hands than Culver - 9.0 x 9.75 v. 8.25 x 8.5. Note that Culver as a slight tendency to lose the ball on his drives. We saw that against Dallas when he missed that layup/dunk that could have won the game in regulation. You rarely see that with Okogie. When he loses the ball, it's typically on the dribble because of his ball-handling, although that aspect of his game has improved significantly. You can improve your skills, including ball-handling. But size - whether is wingspan, height or hand width/length - is static.

How about comparative athleticism?

Both are very good athletes, but Okogie's overall athleticism is elite. Edge clearly to Okogie.

Both have great verticals, although we don't have an official combine vertical for Culver. There was a report he had a 45" vertical in a workout for the Lakers, but there's no way to verify that. Okogie's 42" max vertical was recorded at the draft combine, which makes it more credible in my view. I think both are elite leapers, but Okogie also put up elite numbers on all the athletic tests in the combine. Since Culver didn't participate in the combine athletic testing, we don't have any objective basis for comparing his overall athleticism and speed to Okogie's. But the eye test suggests that Culver isn't quite as quick or fast as Okogie. Some of that perceived difference, however, might reflect Culver's understated and smoother style of play.

Other comparatives between Culver and Okogie?

They are both good defenders and suspect shooters with different strengths and weaknesses in other areas. I'd call it fairly even overall right now.

Both are good defenders with the potential, in my view, to be great on that end of the floor. Okogie is a more disruptive game-changing defender than Culver and I also think he's a better defender overall than Culver right now. But Culver's a year behind Okogie and I expect that to even out.

Okogie has been a significantly better free-throw shooter than Culver throughout their respective college and NBA careers to date. Okogie was also a more consistent 3-point shooter than Culver in college. Of course, both have been poor 3-point shooters so far in their NBA careers. Free-throw accuracy tends to be a pretty good predictor of 3-point shooting. In that regard, Okogie seems to be the better bet as a 3 & D player. Okogie's 38% 3-point shooting in both of his college seasons adds further credence to Okogie having better 3-point potential than Culver. But I like what I've seen from Culver so far this preseason, although it's preseason and only 3 games.

To me, Culver seems smoother than Okogie and appears to have a better handle.

Overall potential comparison?

Although both are good defenders with the potential to be elite in that area, they strike me as very different in many ways with different trajectories.

Okogie seems to be the more impactful player right now. He's a really good, disruptive defender. He locks down opposing ball handlers and makes them uncomfortable. He generates steals and draws charges. On the offensive end, he's adept at drawing fouls while his improved handle and body control have made him fairly effective at scoring on dribble penetration. He's also a good rebounder - better than Culver right now. At some point, you would expect Okogie's accurate free-throw shooting and 38% college 3-point average to be reflected in at least decent accuracy from behind the NBA arc, but that remains to be seen. Although Okogie isn't what I'd call a high basketball IQ guy or a good playmaker, he's not a low IQ guy or a ball-stopper either. To the contrary, he has a decent feel for the game and is very good at keeping to ball moving. Notice, the ball almost never slows down in his hands.

As I see it, Okogie's floor is what we've seen so far - a high-energy disruptive, lock-down defender who can help on the offensive end by drawing fouls, scoring in the paint and keeping the ball moving. In that sense, he should be coming off the bench as a 6th or 7th man. I see Okogie's potential or ceiling as more in line with a 3&D guy if he can get his 3-point shot to fall more consistently - a longer and more athletic version of Marcus Smart.

Culver's floor seems lower than Okogie's, but I think Culver has a higher ceiling. Culver seems to have a really good feel for the game. He's fluid and his fluidity sometimes masks his high-end athleticism. Whereas Okogie plays at only one speed, Culver looks like he can play at multiple speeds and that will only get better as he continues to adjust to the NBA. I've mentioned this before - when I think of Culver's ceiling, I think of Brandon Roy. I know I'm out on a bit of a limb with that and I'm not suggesting that Culver is the second coming of Brandon. However, look very similar in a number of respects, including length, fluidity and feel for the game. Note that Roy was never a great 3-point shooter. He was, instead, a great scorer who was deadly from mid-range, decent from behind the arc and adept at getting to the the line where his accuracy was around 80%. Culver had a consistently good mid-range shot in college. If he can dramatically improve his free-throw shooting and develop consistently sound shooting mechanics, then he could become a very good player. If his handle and decision-making continue to improve, then I can see him developing into an all-star caliber player on par with Brandon Roy. I didn't think that when we drafted him, but oddly he's impressed me more since then in spite of his poor stats to date in the NBA.

Again, I know I'm out there on a bit of a limb, but I like Culver's ceiling and I think it's much more than a solid 3&D guy. As for the odds of him reaching that ceiling - well, that's another discussion.
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Coolbreeze44
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I didn't Like Plus 1 - Preseason Edition

Post by Coolbreeze44 »

WolvesFan21 wrote:Culver reworked his shot over the time off. He'll be 35%+ 3P and 70%+ FT.

A lot of what he was struggling with was confidence and trying to rework his shot during the season. I can see him gaining confidence and excelling this season. Though I may be optimistic, I trust his work ethic and I trust his college numbers that he'll improve dramatically from last season.

Here is the problem. I'm not sure if he's going to get many crunch time minutes, but from what I've seen both in college and the pros he struggles in the bigger moments. Playing well in 18 meaningless games at the end of the season and this preseason doesn't mean much to me. Play well enough to be on the floor in the last 5 minutes, and then make some plays to help win games. If he can accomplish these two things I will change my opinion of him.
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AbeVigodaLive
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I didn't Like Plus 1 - Preseason Edition

Post by AbeVigodaLive »

CoolBreeze44 wrote:
WolvesFan21 wrote:Culver reworked his shot over the time off. He'll be 35%+ 3P and 70%+ FT.

A lot of what he was struggling with was confidence and trying to rework his shot during the season. I can see him gaining confidence and excelling this season. Though I may be optimistic, I trust his work ethic and I trust his college numbers that he'll improve dramatically from last season.

Here is the problem. I'm not sure if he's going to get many crunch time minutes, but from what I've seen both in college and the pros he struggles in the bigger moments. Playing well in 18 meaningless games at the end of the season and this preseason doesn't mean much to me. Play well enough to be on the floor in the last 5 minutes, and then make some plays to help win games. If he can accomplish these two things I will change my opinion of him.



Such a negative nellie... demanding real-world meaningful stats and results and stuff.
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Coolbreeze44
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I didn't Like Plus 1 - Preseason Edition

Post by Coolbreeze44 »

AbeVigodaLive wrote:
CoolBreeze44 wrote:
WolvesFan21 wrote:Culver reworked his shot over the time off. He'll be 35%+ 3P and 70%+ FT.

A lot of what he was struggling with was confidence and trying to rework his shot during the season. I can see him gaining confidence and excelling this season. Though I may be optimistic, I trust his work ethic and I trust his college numbers that he'll improve dramatically from last season.

Here is the problem. I'm not sure if he's going to get many crunch time minutes, but from what I've seen both in college and the pros he struggles in the bigger moments. Playing well in 18 meaningless games at the end of the season and this preseason doesn't mean much to me. Play well enough to be on the floor in the last 5 minutes, and then make some plays to help win games. If he can accomplish these two things I will change my opinion of him.



Such a negative nellie... demanding real-world meaningful stats and results and stuff.

Hahahaha. As Herm Edwards said, "You play to win the Game". The Wolves need to do that this year.
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FNG
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I didn't Like Plus 1 - Preseason Edition

Post by FNG »

BloopOracle wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
CoolBreeze44 wrote:

- It's great to see so many of you diehards back for another year of punishment. And it looks like we have some new blood to offer their perspective. Good to see.




I'm excited to bludgeon any newbies with a steady, incessant stream of Wolves cynicism until they relent.


FNG so far is resisting


Ha, I don't need AbeVigodaLive to bludgeon me into extreme pessimism...I'm fully capable of turning on this team all by myself! I mentioned in the "wins prediction" thread that I have done well betting the under on this team for many seasons. One notable exception was a successful over bet after the Butler trade that I quickly made before the line was adjusted, because I was a big fan of the deal Thibs pulled off with the Bulls. But as much as I endorsed that deal and, before that, hiring Thibs as our coach, I largely turned on him as I saw him suck the fun out of Target Center. He always seemed like a pretty good guy and I wish him luck in NY (except when they play us), but I was quite negative about the team toward the end of his stint and into last year. I also didn't love the trade that brought Russell here, and felt quite negative about the team at the end of last season and during the Covid break.

But somehow an unfamiliar feeling of optimism is in the air for me right now. I'm ignoring D-Lo's poor career on/off stats and taking a big swig of Kool Aid every time I watch him working out in the practice videos...he consistently has his game face on and seems intent on having a good season. I don't harbor much optimism about him becoming a great defender, but I think he can become an efficient offensive force. Conversely, I am clinging to some hope that KAT can shake his malaise and become a decent defender. He has the size and athleticism and was a plus defender in college, and is saying all the right things about needing to improve on defense. I also am quite optimistic about what Edwards is going to bring this team, and have a lot of hope that Culver is going to take a big leap this season. Finally, I'm excited about the open looks I think Rubio will create for this team, and hopeful he will help guys like Beasley and Juancho show that their 2020 end of season 40+% 3-point success was not a mirage.

So yeah, I see the pieces in place with this team and also think they will play hard for Ryan Saunders who. although he doesn't have the confidence of most of this board, seems to have the confidence of the guys who matter- the players. And I'm holding on to hope that the Wolves will be one of the surprise teams this year and battle for the playoffs.

But if they start out 2-8, I will turn on them so fast your head will spin. I will become the new leader of the "Fire Saunders and Rosas", "trade KAT and blow it up" and "I hate Spanish basketball players" chants.

But until then, let me enjoy my foolish optimism...at least for another 14 hours.
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AbeVigodaLive
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I didn't Like Plus 1 - Preseason Edition

Post by AbeVigodaLive »

I like this new guy.

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TheFuture
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I didn't Like Plus 1 - Preseason Edition

Post by TheFuture »

Cool, where are the season and-ones?
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60WinTim
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I didn't Like Plus 1 - Preseason Edition

Post by 60WinTim »

TheFuture wrote:Cool, where are the season and-ones?


He did say it's tough to do a 2+1 when there's not a whole lot to complain about...
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