Minnesota Sports Forum

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Houston could legitimately have a championship already. You wonder if their owner had been willing to spend more money the last few months if things would be a bit more happy around there.

If GS stays healthy the Kawhi acquisition may not seem like such a home run. There are a lot of ways of putting together a roster. I think a lot of options should be considered. Look at the Warriors. They traded away Ellis, did everything they could to sign Iggy and added Livingston as well as let their high draft pick leave and signed Durant who went on to win 2 Finals MVPs.

I get locked into thinking certain ways myself. GS made some of their own success and had some good fortune as well. They did also think outside the box at times to build a hell of a team. The Raptors took some risks and it paid off. It seems like Rosas and this front office is genuinely going to be looking at all options. It's a refreshing change.

There is certainly more than one way to build a championship contender. My point is is two-fold. First, it's generally more effective to build your core PRIMARILY through the draft. And that's especially true for a franchise that isn't considered a destination franchise like the Lakers. Second, it's generally more sustainable to build your core through the draft. I think the draft is less important for filling out the rest of the team with complementary role players around the core. I'll add that the next best thing to using the draft to build most of your core is to acquire young up-and-comers via trades or free agency -- players like Middleton.

Note that even two of the three players in Toronto's core (Siakam and Lowry) this season were drafted by the Raptors. Obviously, trading for Kawhi was key in going from championship contender to champion. But that trade was possible because Toronto previously drafted DeRozan.

Lowry was drafted by the Grizzlies and then played for the Rockets before he got to Toronto. He was another asset they traded for. Pascal was the only player in their whole rotation they actually drafted.

Ok. But my point still holds as a general proposition.

And our point is there are multiple ways to build a contender. There isn't one right way to do it and considering we are a late lottery team right now trying to build through the draft doesn't have great odds of working out.

I've already acknowledged that there is more than one way. In fact, I never said there wasn't. So I'll try one more time. I said building your core primarily through the draft has proven to be a more effective and sustainable approach, especially for a mid-market, non-destination franchise like the Wolves. If you disagree with that, then fine. But understand I'm not disputing that there's more than one way.

Marc Stein reporting that Wolves are going hard after no.4, presumably for Garland.

crazy-canuck wrote:Marc Stein reporting that Wolves are going hard after no.4, presumably for Garland.

To me, that's the right move. Let's think about what the Pelicans need or likely want.

First of all, I'd say they absolutely don't need a PG now that they have both Holiday AND Ball. So Garland is of little use to them. By the same token, they wouldn't have any interest in Teague or Tyus. As I see it, they'll have Zion slotted in immediately as their starting PF with Jrue starting at PG, and Ingram at one of their two wing positions. So three of their starting slots are filled with elite or potentially elite players. They have Ball backing up at PG or possibly starting at PG with Holiday shifting to SG and Ingram at SF.

So it looks like the Pelicans' biggest need is center, although they could use another wing either as a starter or for depth as a 6th or 7th man. They'll also need 3-point shooting to open up space for Zion whose one weakness is lack of shooting range as well as for Ingram and Ball. I could see them wanting a stretch 4 who could conceivably play with Zion in the front court given Zion's versatility.

So what can the Wolves offer the Pelicans to meet any or all of those needs to the point where New Orleans would swap #4 for #11? I'm thinking Covington would be the key. He'd bring 3-point shooting, excellent defense, wing depth and veteran leadership to a team that needs all those things. And he would come with a very team-friendly contract. I'd rather give them Saric. They might want both. And they might want a future lottery-protected first. I'd be willing to give Covington or Saric but not both and I'd be open to giving up our 2021 lottery-protected first. But ideally, I'd hope that #11, Covington or Saric and #43 would be enough to get the deal done.

Snell and 30th pick traded to the Pistons for Leur.

So basically, a late for 1st for a one year salary dump.

Pistons are now another potential trade down candidate for us.

#11, future protected first, Okogie, and Dieng for #4, E'twan Moore, and Frank Jackson. Your thoughts?

lipoli390 wrote:

crazy-canuck wrote:Marc Stein reporting that Wolves are going hard after no.4, presumably for Garland.

To me, that's the right move. Let's think about what the Pelicans need or likely want.

First of all, I'd say they absolutely don't need a PG now that they have both Holiday AND Ball. So Garland is of little use to them. By the same token, they wouldn't have any interest in Teague or Tyus. As I see it, they'll have Zion slotted in immediately as their starting PF with Jrue starting at PG, and Ingram at one of their two wing positions. So three of their starting slots are filled with elite or potentially elite players. They have Ball backing up at PG or possibly starting at PG with Holiday shifting to SG and Ingram at SF.

So it looks like the Pelicans' biggest need is center, although they could use another wing either as a starter or for depth as a 6th or 7th man. They'll also need 3-point shooting to open up space for Zion whose one weakness is lack of shooting range as well as for Ingram and Ball. I could see them wanting a stretch 4 who could conceivably play with Zion in the front court given Zion's versatility.

So what can the Wolves offer the Pelicans to meet any or all of those needs to the point where New Orleans would swap #4 for #11? I'm thinking Covington would be the key. He'd bring 3-point shooting, excellent defense, wing depth and veteran leadership to a team that needs all those things. And he would come with a very team-friendly contract. I'd rather give them Saric. They might want both. And they might want a future lottery-protected first. I'd be willing to give Covington or Saric but not both and I'd be open to giving up our 2021 lottery-protected first. But ideally, I'd hope that #11, Covington or Saric and #43 would be enough to get the deal done.

Lip I think you laid it out there pretty well. I will say I'm not really sure the Pelicans need another wing maybe a SF type but they could resign a guy like Darius Miller or maybe Stanley Johnson or whoever for a bench guy. Look who they have.

Ball and Holiday can and will play a lot at both guard spots.

E'Twaun Moore is good enough to play minutes on a good team. I wouldn't mind getting him back in a deal.

Josh Hart

Brandon Ingram

I'd guess Zion gets some run playing the 3.

I'd guess the Pels would have to love Saric but I would not be surprised the the Wolves would be hesitant to give him up also. Supposedly the Pelicans want a player than can help them now. Would I give up Saric to get Garland along with #11? Yeah probably. I don't think that's gonna be enough. I'm not giving up Covington in that deal unless MAYBE it's straight up for 4.

What is interesting is all the teams that are adding draft picks. Detroit now has 15 and 30. It seems like there are more teams now that may present options to trade down if we can't move up and nobody drops to #11. Only a few more hours left till we find out.

Mr. Brightside wrote:#11, future protected first, Okogie, and Dieng for #4, E'twan Moore, and Frank Jackson. Your thoughts?

That is not enough to move to 4.

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Houston could legitimately have a championship already. You wonder if their owner had been willing to spend more money the last few months if things would be a bit more happy around there.

If GS stays healthy the Kawhi acquisition may not seem like such a home run. There are a lot of ways of putting together a roster. I think a lot of options should be considered. Look at the Warriors. They traded away Ellis, did everything they could to sign Iggy and added Livingston as well as let their high draft pick leave and signed Durant who went on to win 2 Finals MVPs.

I get locked into thinking certain ways myself. GS made some of their own success and had some good fortune as well. They did also think outside the box at times to build a hell of a team. The Raptors took some risks and it paid off. It seems like Rosas and this front office is genuinely going to be looking at all options. It's a refreshing change.

There is certainly more than one way to build a championship contender. My point is is two-fold. First, it's generally more effective to build your core PRIMARILY through the draft. And that's especially true for a franchise that isn't considered a destination franchise like the Lakers. Second, it's generally more sustainable to build your core through the draft. I think the draft is less important for filling out the rest of the team with complementary role players around the core. I'll add that the next best thing to using the draft to build most of your core is to acquire young up-and-comers via trades or free agency -- players like Middleton.

Note that even two of the three players in Toronto's core (Siakam and Lowry) this season were drafted by the Raptors. Obviously, trading for Kawhi was key in going from championship contender to champion. But that trade was possible because Toronto previously drafted DeRozan.

Lowry was drafted by the Grizzlies and then played for the Rockets before he got to Toronto. He was another asset they traded for. Pascal was the only player in their whole rotation they actually drafted.

Ok. But my point still holds as a general proposition.

And our point is there are multiple ways to build a contender. There isn't one right way to do it and considering we are a late lottery team right now trying to build through the draft doesn't have great odds of working out.

I've already acknowledged that there is more than one way. In fact, I never said there wasn't. So I'll try one more time. I said building your core primarily through the draft has proven to be a more effective and sustainable approach, especially for a mid-market, non-destination franchise like the Wolves. If you disagree with that, then fine. But understand I'm not disputing that there's more than one way.

The overlooked piece of your argument is drafting multiple Hall of Famers is the most effective approach to building a team. Not just building through the draft. Those are the outliers. The Spurs and the Warriors. That's it. Nobody else has had extended championship success through the draft in the last 20 years and it takes drafting multiple Hall of Famers to get to that level of sustainable success. Everyone else has had to trade and sign their way to the title. Lakers (two eras with Shaq and without), Celtics, Heat, Cavs, Raptors. So if you think Garland is relatively likely to be a Hall of Fame PG then we're set. If he's not, then we aren't one of those teams you are referring to when you say that's the most effective way to team build and we're right back to square one of needing to trade or sign for the pieces to put us into contender status.

crazy-canuck wrote:

Mr. Brightside wrote:#11, future protected first, Okogie, and Dieng for #4, E'twan Moore, and Frank Jackson. Your thoughts?

That is not enough to move to 4.

Hopefully, we neither trade up nor trade for DLO. Hopefully, these rumors are just smoke. I'm happy taking the best guy at 11 or trading back. I don't want to give up valuable assets on unproven or overhyped guys who aren't good defenders.

crazy-canuck wrote:

Mr. Brightside wrote:#11, future protected first, Okogie, and Dieng for #4, E'twan Moore, and Frank Jackson. Your thoughts?

That is not enough to move to 4.

I think the key to moving up to #4, if it's possible at all, would be Covington or Saric. The deal would have to include one of those along with #11 and a future lottery-protected 1st. We might also have to include either Okogie or KBD.

But what would work for the Wolves depends a lot on what other teams are offering. Apparently, the Bulls and Suns are interested in moving up to #4 for Garland. The Bulls have already said they won't trade Markkenen or Carter. Would they be willing to trade Otto Porter as part of a deal for #4? If so, the Wolves don't have a chance. What about LaVine and/or Dunn? Would the Pelicans have any interest in either or both? I don't think they'd have any interest in Dunn, but they might be interested in LaVine for his shooting and scoring. Then again, he has a big contract and is defensively challenged. Would the Suns be willing to offer Josh Jackson? I could see the Pelicans going for that, but maybe not given Jackson's apparent issues between the ears. Otherwise, I don't think the Suns have more attractive player assets than Covington and Saric. Both the Bulls and Suns would be swapping a higher pick than the Wolves for #4 and that gives them an inherent edge. But in this draft, I'm not sure how much different there is between #6 or 7 and #11.

It could come down to who's available when the Wolves are picking at #11. If a guy the Pelicans really like is still on the board, I could see the Pelicans calling Rosas to pull the trigger on a deal for that pick along with Covington or Saric and a future 1st.