Minnesota Sports Forum

"Mediocrity". I don't think we have performed at this level. That would surely be an improvement.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/5/17/18629224/mike-conley-trade-market-memphis-grizzlies-ja-morant-nba-draft

Writer suggests Conley for Wiggins straight up as a darkhorse trade. And no I didn't write the article.

thedoper wrote:https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/5/17/18629224/mike-conley-trade-market-memphis-grizzlies-ja-morant-nba-draft

Writer suggests Conley for Wiggins straight up as a darkhorse trade. And no I didn't write the article.

Love Conley, still on the Kemba train but sadly neither are probably likely for us

thedoper wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Conley will be 32 years old when the season starts - nearly 10 years older than KAT. As a PG he has a lot of wear and tear on his body. He hasn't played 80 games or more in 7 seasons. In the last 5 seasons he's played 12, 56, 69, 70 and 70. He has two expensive years left on his contract, so swapping Wiggins for him won't open up room for free agent signings. In fact, he will take up about $5 million more salary space, which would make it even harder to sign a free agent without hitting the luxury tax. And when Conley's contract runs out in two years when he's 34 years old, then what? I'm a big Conley fan, but trading for him makes no sense. It would be the sort of dumb move we the Wolves have perfected over the years. It would be yet another misalignment.

It's pretty simple. The Wolves need to build around KAT with players similar in age and long on talent. The hard part, of course, is drafting, signing and/or trading for those players without having a top 3 pick, a lot of cap money or a lot of trade assets. But there are contenders who would be interested in a player like Covington. Saric has trade value too. And somewhere in this draft there is a future star or two outside the top 3 picks. It's up to Rosas to show his worth with a really smart move or two - drafting that future star with the 11th pick and/or trading for a young talent who some other team has lost patience with. Recent examples of such players include D'Angelo Russell and Buddy Hield. A familiar example from the distant past is Chauncey Billups. I'm not going to speculate on who that potential star might be. It's up to Rosas and his team of scouts, coaches and other execs in the Wolves organization to find those players.

I'm on record without hindsight saying at the time I would have drafted McCollum and after trading down I'm on record saying I would have taken Giannis. I'm on record wanting to draft Buddy Hield or Murray over Dunn. And I'm on record wanting to draft John Collins rather than Patton as part of the Butler deal. I would expect Rosas, who is supposedly an expert getting paid millions of dollars, to do better than a rube like me. Any number of us on this Board would have had the Wolves in a much better position than they're in if we had been the Wolves PBO over the past 3-7 years. I'm tired of this organization's mediocrity -- and mediocrity is a overly charitable term for describing this organization's player personnel decision-making. Trading Wiggins AND our first round pick would a cop-out -- another expression of mediocrity that could get us a couple good years if Conley stayed healthy and didn't decline the way Chris Paul has declined in his early 30sin the playoffs. But there'd be nothing sustainable beyond that time.

If you or Rosas can get KAT to make the playoffs without a Vet coming in good work. I think the key is selling KAT that we're serious to win immediately or he's gone just like every Wolves talent before him. I don't know if there's anyone here that wants it to work with Wiggins more than me. But staying the course means playoffs is an absolute must this year to sell Towns on the plan. If young talent means another year in the lottery, Towns wanes. He just deserves more. Trading Covington or Saric is just as ballsy as I see it, but those guys are such good compliments in my mind and I don't see pure basketball people wanting to get rid of players like that. Those are the types of guys you try and draft with your stars. If they can stay healthy they're good compliments to KAT. I honestly like your plan more. We'll see how it pans out but one more season of anything less than huge strides and KATs got one foot out the door.

KAT's entering the 1st year of his 5-year deal. He's only 23 years old and the undisputed face of the franchise, which is what he wanted to be when he signed that deal. There's no way he's going to force his way out after only one more season in the lottery, especially if he sees young talent with upside around him and likes his head coach. His contract and age gives the organization 2 - 3 seasons to get things right before he starts banging the the drum for a trade. This organization made a big mistake opting for Brandon instead of Billups and then tried to salvage the post-Brandon situation by acquiring Cassell and Sprewell. Not surprisingly, the situation wasn't sustainable. The organization needed to build around KG with talented players of similar vintage. But that's not what they did. What happened? KG was traded and the rest is history.

I like Covington, but he isn't close to all-star caliber, much less star caliber. And he'll be 29 years old this season with what appears to be knee issues. That just doesn't match up well with the 23-year old KAT. No matter how good KAT is, this team isn't going to be a contender or anything better than an 8th seed without pairing KAT with at least another all star caliber player. And that other elite player has to be at a point in his career where he can develop and grow with KAT and the other players. There is no shortcut. The Wolves organization needs to be smart and patient - although patience can't be unlimited. Part of being smart is aligning acquisitions with the core around whom the team is being built. That means making good draft picks. And at this point, I think it means trading Covington because he's a player who could actually bring value in return.

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Conley will be 32 years old when the season starts - nearly 10 years older than KAT. As a PG he has a lot of wear and tear on his body. He hasn't played 80 games or more in 7 seasons. In the last 5 seasons he's played 12, 56, 69, 70 and 70. He has two expensive years left on his contract, so swapping Wiggins for him won't open up room for free agent signings. In fact, he will take up about $5 million more salary space, which would make it even harder to sign a free agent without hitting the luxury tax. And when Conley's contract runs out in two years when he's 34 years old, then what? I'm a big Conley fan, but trading for him makes no sense. It would be the sort of dumb move we the Wolves have perfected over the years. It would be yet another misalignment.

It's pretty simple. The Wolves need to build around KAT with players similar in age and long on talent. The hard part, of course, is drafting, signing and/or trading for those players without having a top 3 pick, a lot of cap money or a lot of trade assets. But there are contenders who would be interested in a player like Covington. Saric has trade value too. And somewhere in this draft there is a future star or two outside the top 3 picks. It's up to Rosas to show his worth with a really smart move or two - drafting that future star with the 11th pick and/or trading for a young talent who some other team has lost patience with. Recent examples of such players include D'Angelo Russell and Buddy Hield. A familiar example from the distant past is Chauncey Billups. I'm not going to speculate on who that potential star might be. It's up to Rosas and his team of scouts, coaches and other execs in the Wolves organization to find those players.

I'm on record without hindsight saying at the time I would have drafted McCollum and after trading down I'm on record saying I would have taken Giannis. I'm on record wanting to draft Buddy Hield or Murray over Dunn. And I'm on record wanting to draft John Collins rather than Patton as part of the Butler deal. I would expect Rosas, who is supposedly an expert getting paid millions of dollars, to do better than a rube like me. Any number of us on this Board would have had the Wolves in a much better position than they're in if we had been the Wolves PBO over the past 3-7 years. I'm tired of this organization's mediocrity -- and mediocrity is a overly charitable term for describing this organization's player personnel decision-making. Trading Wiggins AND our first round pick would a cop-out -- another expression of mediocrity that could get us a couple good years if Conley stayed healthy and didn't decline the way Chris Paul has declined in his early 30sin the playoffs. But there'd be nothing sustainable beyond that time.

If you or Rosas can get KAT to make the playoffs without a Vet coming in good work. I think the key is selling KAT that we're serious to win immediately or he's gone just like every Wolves talent before him. I don't know if there's anyone here that wants it to work with Wiggins more than me. But staying the course means playoffs is an absolute must this year to sell Towns on the plan. If young talent means another year in the lottery, Towns wanes. He just deserves more. Trading Covington or Saric is just as ballsy as I see it, but those guys are such good compliments in my mind and I don't see pure basketball people wanting to get rid of players like that. Those are the types of guys you try and draft with your stars. If they can stay healthy they're good compliments to KAT. I honestly like your plan more. We'll see how it pans out but one more season of anything less than huge strides and KATs got one foot out the door.

KAT's entering the 1st year of his 5-year deal. He's only 23 years old and the undisputed face of the franchise, which is what he wanted to be when he signed that deal. There's no way he's going to force his way out after only one more season in the lottery, especially if he sees young talent with upside around him and likes his head coach. His contract and age gives the organization 2 - 3 seasons to get things right before he starts banging the the drum for a trade. This organization made a big mistake opting for Brandon instead of Billups and then tried to salvage the post-Brandon situation by acquiring Cassell and Sprewell. Not surprisingly, the situation wasn't sustainable. The organization needed to build around KG with talented players of similar vintage. But that's not what they did. What happened? KG was traded and the rest is history.

I like Covington, but he isn't close to all-star caliber, much less star caliber. And he'll be 29 years old this season with what appears to be knee issues. That just doesn't match up well with the 23-year old KAT. No matter how good KAT is, this team isn't going to be a contender or anything better than an 8th seed without pairing KAT with at least another all star caliber player. And that other elite player has to be at a point in his career where he can develop and grow with KAT and the other players. There is no shortcut. The Wolves organization needs to be smart and patient - although patience can't be unlimited. Part of being smart is aligning acquisitions with the core around whom the team is being built. That means making good draft picks. And at this point, I think it means trading Covington because he's a player who could actually bring value in return.

I think it should be noted that if Cassell hadn't hurt himself doing the big balls dance the Wolves has a legit chance of winning a championship that year. Classic Wolves even if it was for one year the trades McHale made to put together a legit co tender was pretty masterful. He basically dumped guys with big contracts and no fans really wanted for 3 key players in Cassell Spree and Ervin Johnson. Yes it didn't last but he gave up nothing of real value for one really good year and in Spree's case wisely declined to keep him around. Meanwhile the Cassell deal was poor. Still those initial trades were pretty damn good even if it was cleaning up some of his own mistakes damn.

Here is the reality of Covington as long as he doesn't just break in half and can't play. Look at the value Ariza has had in the league all these years. Covington is a better defender and a better 3 point shooter. Kyle Korver still has value and obviously a better shooter is only a solid team defender. Covington is going to have value going forward. Let's keep him a year and see what we actually have with this roster instead of turning it over ever few months. Having a legit veteran like him I think can be pretty huge. If some other wing steps forward then you have a great problem. Maybe we will be a smart organization and actually play him a few less minutes and maybe even rest him in a game here and there while giving some other guys a shot at playing time. Hopefully he is a guy that can help as a little piece of maybe one guy develop like he did. I agree he is a value-able asset ai just don't think this is the time to deal him. We have been waiting like 15 years to get a player like him. I know you aren't taking the idea of trading him lightly.

Monster - I fully understand the value of Covington as a player for the Wolves. But he's the sort of player you add as a veteran when your elite young core in in place. This team isn't going to come close to contending if they don't add at least one other elite young player alongside KAT. Unless Wiggins surprises us all and suddenly becomes that player, I don't think we have that sort of talent on this roster. If we can draft or sign a FA who can be that second elite player, then I'd love to keep Covington. He's still in his prime and, if healthy, is a very good complementary player. But right now, he's probably the only trade asset with enough value to package for a young potentially elite player. That's why this is precisely the time to trade him. His market value is probably about as high as it will be assuming he's healthy. But his value to the Wolves is less because he's the wrong fit for the current state of this team.

lipoli390 wrote:Monster - I fully understand the value of Covington as a player for the Wolves. But he's the sort of player you add as a veteran when your elite young core in in place. This team isn't going to come close to contending if they don't add at least one other elite young player alongside KAT. Unless Wiggins surprises us all and suddenly becomes that player, I don't think we have that sort of talent on this roster. If we can draft or sign a FA who can be that second elite player, then I'd love to keep Covington. He's still in his prime and, if healthy, is a very good complementary player. But right now, he's probably the only trade asset with enough value to package for a young potentially elite player. That's why this is precisely the time to trade him. His market value is probably about as high as it will be assuming he's healthy. But his value to the Wolves is less because he's the wrong fit for the current state of this team.

Thanks for the reply i'll Outline more what I see when I think of keeping Convington for longer than you.

Lots of people think this team is so far away. I actually think it's less far away than some people think. I'm certainly not suggesting we are a contender but I think we are a team that absolutely could do exactly what the Rockets did. Unbelievable offensive player and a bunch of guys surrounding him and suddenly they get Chris Paul because he wants to go there because they are good. Will the Rockets come up short? Probably BUT they went after the GS juggernaut and gave them a hell of a run. That's really something in its own way even if Houston is annoying to watch play. But let's say the Rockets didn't even get Chris Paul and keep building with what they had which I would not be opposed to. Look at a couple guys guys they moved to get him. Lou Williams and Harrell playing on a team with Harden would have been pretty lethal. Every minute of the game you would be having to deal with an elite scorer and a REALLY good energy big (Harrell and Capella). What did Houston give up to get those players/assets? A protected first round pick to the Lakers for Lou and a 2nd round pick on Harrell.

Again I don't think trading covington now for the assets you want now is something I want to do because I don't think his value is going to drop much. Meanwhile the Wolves other than PG I really don't know exactly what they need to put their assets toward. I'm not sure there is a PG or PG prospect that I use Covington to go get. I know the draft is sexy and all that but these guys don't all become good players. Let's see what we have this year and then when we have a better idea of what we have and what we don't use whatever you have in terms of assets to figure out the roster going forward.

Ultimately all these decisions are all based in taking some risks and hoping for rewards. We need to acknowledge that basically all moves have some risks. That doesn't mean a person should be opposed to risks but it also should be worth considering that keeping a certain player on your roster could lees to a reward. Saric is a tough deal because we don't know what we have. If we deal him to say move up in the draft or for some sort of draft capital it's not a sure thing that works out. Meanwhile what if Saric becomes comfortable here is utilized well and becomes a really nice player for this team? It's honestly a lot more likely than Wiggins figuring it out. I'm addition it's possible that we are able to keep Saric for a reasonable deal because he is a RFA. That is a big deal.

I tend to be ok with the status quo and yet I do think Rosas should be looking at all options within reason because really other than Towns and Covington nobody is really proven. Obviously that's the reason you are looking at the possibility of moving Covington for value now. Look at a team like the Magic. They didn't have any significant roster additions and Steve Clifford come in and coaches them to 15 more wins than Frank Vogel the previous year. Some of that certainly was some key guys staying healthy but it seemed like that team was better. Imagine if the Wolves have some better luck with health this year and a new coach coach gets more out the roster young and older? Is this team winning say 47 games in the west really that insane? The Wolves had and absolutely shitty brutal season last year and they still managed 36 wins. Were they kinda sorta trying the last chunk of games? Sure but it's not like this team was completely horrendous all things considered.

To me another thing is are so many opportunities for the Wolves to add young talent that it doesn't seem like they need to trade a very good vet to do it. 2-way contracts, maybe signing guys out of the g-league, find a guy playing in Europe, sign a reclamation project or 2, and 2 draft picks is plenty of ways to find some more young talent on a roster that's already likely to be pretty young.

Ok there is my case. :)

Monster - I think you've done a good job making your case for keeping Covington. I'll add to your case by correcting my statement that, other than Wiggins, we don't have any young players on the roster with elite potential. I continue to believe Okogie has the talent to develop into an elite player. And I think KBD can be very good. So I'd add Okogie (and maybe even KBD) as young talent on the roster with all-star or borderline all star potential. Then there are the opportunities you mentioned, including the #11 and 43 picks in this year's draft, college free agents, 2-way contracts, G-League contracts, Euro players and still young reclamation projects. Finally, I'll clarify my case. I'm not advocating for trading Covington. I'm only advocating for trading him if it would land us a young player with all-star potential. I think it's unlikely we can get that sort of player in trade. My point is that Covington is our only chance, albeit a slim one, of exciting a trade for a young player with that sort of potential.

lipoli390 wrote:Monster - I think you've done a good job making your case for keeping Covington. I'll add to your case by correcting my statement that, other than Wiggins, we don't have any young players on the roster with elite potential. I continue to believe Okogie has the talent to develop into an elite player. And I think KBD can be very good. So I'd add Okogie (and maybe even KBD) as young talent on the roster with all-star or borderline all star potential. Then there are the opportunities you mentioned, including the #11 and 43 picks in this year's draft, college free agents, 2-way contracts, G-League contracts, Euro players and still young reclamation projects. Finally, I'll clarify my case. I'm not advocating for trading Covington. I'm only advocating for trading him if it would land us a young player with all-star potential. I think it's unlikely we can get that sort of player in trade. My point is that Covington is our only chance, albeit a slim one, of exciting a trade for a young player with that sort of potential.

Thanks for the clarification. I'd say we actually probably agree then. D guess when you say moving Covington for someone with "Alstar potential" you feel REALLY confident in the possibility of reaching that level. For me (and I admit I haven't done enough research) I don't think there is a guy I would trade covington and the #11 pick to get in this draft outside of the top 2 picks which aren't going anywhere for that package. Getting that type of player on the open market? Yeah those deals either don't happen or come out of nowhere. Obviously you want quality and star power over quantity but I think Covington would likely be easily worth a mid round pick plus something else. I'd rather take the chance of finding a worthwhile player at #11 and have Covington for now and or later (as a player or asset) than take one swing. Again sometimes accumulating assets can get you that player we both want...or we get them in the assets process. This kinda reminds me of the ideas thrown around about using Love as an asset to move up in a few drafts. It turned out we didn't need to move up just actually pick some good players and not be idiots. The last few months have left a bad taste in our mouths but I still think there is enough here to have some optimism going forward and leave some of the awful mistakes in our past and hope for what Abe is dying for...competence!

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Conley will be 32 years old when the season starts - nearly 10 years older than KAT. As a PG he has a lot of wear and tear on his body. He hasn't played 80 games or more in 7 seasons. In the last 5 seasons he's played 12, 56, 69, 70 and 70. He has two expensive years left on his contract, so swapping Wiggins for him won't open up room for free agent signings. In fact, he will take up about $5 million more salary space, which would make it even harder to sign a free agent without hitting the luxury tax. And when Conley's contract runs out in two years when he's 34 years old, then what? I'm a big Conley fan, but trading for him makes no sense. It would be the sort of dumb move we the Wolves have perfected over the years. It would be yet another misalignment.

It's pretty simple. The Wolves need to build around KAT with players similar in age and long on talent. The hard part, of course, is drafting, signing and/or trading for those players without having a top 3 pick, a lot of cap money or a lot of trade assets. But there are contenders who would be interested in a player like Covington. Saric has trade value too. And somewhere in this draft there is a future star or two outside the top 3 picks. It's up to Rosas to show his worth with a really smart move or two - drafting that future star with the 11th pick and/or trading for a young talent who some other team has lost patience with. Recent examples of such players include D'Angelo Russell and Buddy Hield. A familiar example from the distant past is Chauncey Billups. I'm not going to speculate on who that potential star might be. It's up to Rosas and his team of scouts, coaches and other execs in the Wolves organization to find those players.

I'm on record without hindsight saying at the time I would have drafted McCollum and after trading down I'm on record saying I would have taken Giannis. I'm on record wanting to draft Buddy Hield or Murray over Dunn. And I'm on record wanting to draft John Collins rather than Patton as part of the Butler deal. I would expect Rosas, who is supposedly an expert getting paid millions of dollars, to do better than a rube like me. Any number of us on this Board would have had the Wolves in a much better position than they're in if we had been the Wolves PBO over the past 3-7 years. I'm tired of this organization's mediocrity -- and mediocrity is a overly charitable term for describing this organization's player personnel decision-making. Trading Wiggins AND our first round pick would a cop-out -- another expression of mediocrity that could get us a couple good years if Conley stayed healthy and didn't decline the way Chris Paul has declined in his early 30sin the playoffs. But there'd be nothing sustainable beyond that time.

If you or Rosas can get KAT to make the playoffs without a Vet coming in good work. I think the key is selling KAT that we're serious to win immediately or he's gone just like every Wolves talent before him. I don't know if there's anyone here that wants it to work with Wiggins more than me. But staying the course means playoffs is an absolute must this year to sell Towns on the plan. If young talent means another year in the lottery, Towns wanes. He just deserves more. Trading Covington or Saric is just as ballsy as I see it, but those guys are such good compliments in my mind and I don't see pure basketball people wanting to get rid of players like that. Those are the types of guys you try and draft with your stars. If they can stay healthy they're good compliments to KAT. I honestly like your plan more. We'll see how it pans out but one more season of anything less than huge strides and KATs got one foot out the door.

KAT's entering the 1st year of his 5-year deal. He's only 23 years old and the undisputed face of the franchise, which is what he wanted to be when he signed that deal. There's no way he's going to force his way out after only one more season in the lottery, especially if he sees young talent with upside around him and likes his head coach. His contract and age gives the organization 2 - 3 seasons to get things right before he starts banging the the drum for a trade. This organization made a big mistake opting for Brandon instead of Billups and then tried to salvage the post-Brandon situation by acquiring Cassell and Sprewell. Not surprisingly, the situation wasn't sustainable. The organization needed to build around KG with talented players of similar vintage. But that's not what they did. What happened? KG was traded and the rest is history.

I like Covington, but he isn't close to all-star caliber, much less star caliber. And he'll be 29 years old this season with what appears to be knee issues. That just doesn't match up well with the 23-year old KAT. No matter how good KAT is, this team isn't going to be a contender or anything better than an 8th seed without pairing KAT with at least another all star caliber player. And that other elite player has to be at a point in his career where he can develop and grow with KAT and the other players. There is no shortcut. The Wolves organization needs to be smart and patient - although patience can't be unlimited. Part of being smart is aligning acquisitions with the core around whom the team is being built. That means making good draft picks. And at this point, I think it means trading Covington because he's a player who could actually bring value in return.

One more lottery season makes 4 of 5 seasons. I think the risks with KAT are greater than you're making them out to be. KAT signed his deal because that's what stars do early in their careers, not as a long term commitment to Minnesota. I don't think the KG situation was because the complimentary players weren't his age. I think it was because Taylor waited so long to go into the luxury tax then at the first sign of struggle (Cassells injury, Spree's comments) publicly said it was a mistake and McHale blew it up. Making deals to improve the team year by year isn't a sign of impatience. It's what good teams do. McHale's Wolves stopped making good deals after Spree and Cassell, which was too bad because Casell still had a good season in LA after McHale trades him for that sack of steaming shit Jaric.