Minnesota Sports Forum

I agree, Q, that people need to back off of Westbrook. Even Kevin O'Connor, one of the nicest guys around, was really ripping into him on the mismatch a couple weeks ago.

He's not a particularly likable figure. That recent clip of him going after the journalist in that passive-aggressive way is a good example. His comment about the Wolves was similar. And he's clearly not able to set his ego aside and adapt the way he plays to fit the team as he ages. He needs to stop shooting any jumpers, and he really should accept a role off the bench when he actually could play more of his style. To the extent that the criticism of him is legitimate, I think it comes from that. It's obvious he shouldn't be shooting the ball outside the restricted area, but he just refuses to do it.

But the dogpile on Westbrook feels excessive. Some of it feels like it's coming from long-running anti-Lakers sentiment, but it's not really his fault that team traded for him. A lot of it comes from L.A. fans themselves, who resent him given their high expectations for the season. Again though, that's not his fault. Some of it is probably tapping into the long-running feeling that all that triple-double attention he got for years was overblown. I actually do think that critique was somewhat fair (those post-KD OKC teams basically just all boxed out for him to rebound much of the time), but that doesn't justify mocking a guy for being a bad shooter.

It shouldn't matter, but his . . . uhh, unique sartorial choices make him seem less relatable to fans, so that probably makes him more of a target too. Though to his credit, he's always pushed the boundaries of fashion so it's sincere and a lot of the league has actually kind of followed him in that regard. I kind of admire it, but I can see how what looked like an endearing quirk when he was at his peak now makes him look like an out-of-touch egomaniac.

Actually Cam, I've always kind of appreciated the intensity that he plays with. It's not always on, especially on the defensive end, and especially in the last couple of years. And to some degree he does play it up. But I've always liked watching a guy go out there and try to just go nuclear as often as he has. I think that energy and intensity is real. He's NOT out there to just compete against guys he's friendly with. You really get the sense that he wants to destroy his opponents. I like that. It is a bit of a throwback to the Jordan era. The problem is, he's never really seemed to be much of a teammate either. He's not as big of a dick as Jordan, who basically treated his own teammates as his opponents a lot of the time. But while Westbrook plays with a ton of spite for his opponents, he also seems to play with no love for his teammates. I be that's why, after OKC, it's been easier for his own fans to turn on him as they have, and why there hasn't been much pushback against the criticism he's gotten from former teammates.

It really is similar to the AI situation. Hopefully he can learn a bit of a lesson from his teammate Carmelo, who was headed down a similar path not too long ago before kind of learning to Vince Carter himself as he ages. If not, it'll be another familiar story of a star whose ego was so built up that they didn't know how to age out of stardom gracefully. It won't be the first, and it sadly won't be the last.

I don't want to go full grandpa here, but a lot of this also feels consistent with the tendency in this era of online culture for people to just dogpile on someone for perceived transgressions. It's just so easy to throw stones these days, and stone-throwing has itself become a form of entertainment, which just incentivizes it even more. KAT, for example, was clearly aware the cameras were on him when he mocked him after that shot. He knew, as we all do, how that would play out online. Stephen A. Smith has kind of built a career doing that, so it wasn't surprising to me that he seemed to recognize what was happening and put the brakes on it a little bit (although, of course, the way he did it was by throwing a bit of shade himself--too much insult going one way? Just send a little criticism other way a bit to balance it out--it's sad, but that seems to be the only way we've left ourselves to be mature in a hyper-critical world). But in the bigger picture, I do worry that we're losing our ability to see each other as people and empathize. I'm not saying it's all the internet. People joined mobs long before the modem. But it just feels like it happens so much faster and intensely online.

Russell Westbrook is clearly a flawed person, like most of us. That has also made him a more flawed player as he ages. And some public criticism is fine obviously. If you're a public figure and you make mistakes, you have to accept that it comes with the territory. But I also think we all have a responsibility to be reasonable about it, and it feels to me, in my opinion, like the NBA world has really crossed that line with him in the last couple months.

I respect your take SameOldNudityDrew, but I also nearly puked reading that. Intentional or not, you made it sound like Russell Westbrook is in some way a victim this season. I implore you to feel otherwise for the following reasons.

Firstly, Westbrook is a poor shooter because he simply never improved that part of his game. He never had to in order to be a great player so he didn't. He has relied on his elite athleticism and quick-twitch ability for his entire career and now that it's less effective his weaknesses are shining much brighter. Go figure. The responsibility falls on his own shoulders.

Secondly, Westbrook has been arrogant, cocky, combative, and chippy since he came into the league. It's also part of why he's a top-75 player of all-time. However, his personality led him to years of taunting others on the basketball court. He's guilty of trash talk both with opposing players and fans. How many times have we seen him rock the baby during a game against the Wolves? He's just as guilty for the ongoing rivalry or spat with Patrick Beverley. He's not a bad person for doing any of that. To me, it's just basketball, but he definitely left himself open to getting shit on. He can dish it, but he certainly can't take it. You can't expect to talk shit for over a decade and then not take your fair share when it's more than deserved.

Lastly, Westbrook makes $44M this year and $47M next year in guaranteed player salary. I'd assume he makes even more with brand deals and savvy investments. The criticism he receives from opposing players, fans, media, and anyone else I haven't mentioned doesn't stop Westbrook from getting his money and continuing to provide for his family in ways most of us could only dream about. Westbrook is the fourth-highest paid player in the entire NBA this year and he's a negative impact player or below average NBA player in nearly every meaningful metric we have readily available. He's been atrocious. Who's to blame for that? If you said Westbrook, then you'd be right.

In summary, Westbrook is a perfectly fine human being. However, he absolutely deserves to get crushed with criticism for how he's played this year and his past antics have rightly caught up to him. He's getting a taste of his own medicine all at once and I have no problem with it being that way, especially given that it's all his fault anyways.

Russell Westbrook has always been a polarizing player... all the way back to 2011 when people on this forum argued against Westbrook in Ricky's first NBA game.

Now, that he's in the highest of profile locales with LeBron James... and his game is deteriorating... and he's never been an easy guy to cheer for... he's an easy mark. A very easy mark... and few are missing their opportunity to take it.

In fact, I can't remember another player in the online era that has been mocked and ridiculed THIS much by fans online, NBA pundits, talking heads and everybody else. It's been merciless.



[Note: That being said... I'd gladly take that type of abuse for $91M or whatever...]

Good thoughts from various posters here. It seems like everyone here has quite a bit of respect for what Westbrook has done in his career. He certainly has done plenty to deserve that.

I haven't been paying close enough attention to the media(nor do I want to) to know if people are really going at Westbrook too much big time but I have certainly seen the last few weeks/months there have been plenty of negative headlines. It seems like Lebron hasn't been left out of that either.

FWIW there are a lot of Lebron haters out there. It's almost weird I don't think I will ever get some people that dog the guy.

Should Westbrook be THE scapegoat for the Lakers season? Nope. Is some of the stuff about him out of hand? Probably but this is sports we are talking about. Did Westbrook be a dick during his career? Yes. He should be ready to take some of it back. Haven't we had conversations about how to be a star you got to have a competitive edge? Which is it nice guy or asshole? Westbrook has never seemed to give a shit about what other people say. Will he start now? To some extent I hope he doesn't. He is a human though.

Camden wrote:I respect your take SameOldNudityDrew, but I also nearly puked reading that. Intentional or not, you made it sound like Russell Westbrook is in some way a victim this season. I implore you to feel otherwise for the following reasons.

Firstly, Westbrook is a poor shooter because he simply never improved that part of his game. He never had to in order to be a great player so he didn't. He has relied on his elite athleticism and quick-twitch ability for his entire career and now that it's less effective his weaknesses are shining much brighter. Go figure. The responsibility falls on his own shoulders.

Secondly, Westbrook has been arrogant, cocky, combative, and chippy since he came into the league. It's also part of why he's a top-75 player of all-time. However, his personality led him to years of taunting others on the basketball court. He's guilty of trash talk both with opposing players and fans. How many times have we seen him rock the baby during a game against the Wolves? He's just as guilty for the ongoing rivalry or spat with Patrick Beverley. He's not a bad person for doing any of that. To me, it's just basketball, but he definitely left himself open to getting shit on. He can dish it, but he certainly can't take it. You can't expect to talk shit for over a decade and then not take your fair share when it's more than deserved.

Lastly, Westbrook makes $44M this year and $47M next year in guaranteed player salary. I'd assume he makes even more with brand deals and savvy investments. The criticism he receives from opposing players, fans, media, and anyone else I haven't mentioned doesn't stop Westbrook from getting his money and continuing to provide for his family in ways most of us could only dream about. Westbrook is the fourth-highest paid player in the entire NBA this year and he's a negative impact player or below average NBA player in nearly every meaningful metric we have readily available. He's been atrocious. Who's to blame for that? If you said Westbrook, then you'd be right.

In summary, Westbrook is a perfectly fine human being. However, he absolutely deserves to get crushed with criticism for how he's played this year and his past antics have rightly caught up to him. He's getting a taste of his own medicine all at once and I have no problem with it being that way, especially given that it's all his fault anyways.

All fair points Cam. I'd push back a bit on a couple points though.

1. Some guys just can't shoot. Westbrook seems to be one of them. If he never practiced at all, then he should be criticized for that. But we can't really know how much he has or hasn't worked on his shot. To me, a guy shouldn't catch flak because of something he just can't do. What he does deserve criticism for is something he can do but won't--just limit the number of jumpers he takes. So I do think he deserves criticism for that, although I don't think that warrants the level of mockery he's gotten.

2. You're right, Westbrook has talked a lot of smack. I'm sure that the criticism he's gotten has been a bit of payback for that. And yes, if you dish it, you should be willing to take it. But I think it should be somewhat proportionate. If a guy like Pat Bev wants to talk some more smack back at him with a big smile on his face, ok. If KAT rocked the baby, ok. But it just felt to me like what happened at the game the other day went a bit beyond that line, especially because of the crowd. I think that's what I've got the bigger problem with is when a whole stadium starts mocking a guy, which happened almost every time he shot a jumper the other night. And it's happened a lot in the last few months, including in LA. All of that on top of whatever's out there online. It's almost like mocking Russ has become a meme to the extent that any casual fan at this point just learns that's what you do. I bet a lot of fans who are making fun of him couldn't explain that well, from a statistical standpoint, what kind of a player Russ is. They just know: people make fun of that guy when he shoots, he's a bad shooter, so let's make fun of him when he shoots.

3. You're right to bring up the money thing. I should have addressed it. These guys get paid unreal amounts of money. And especially for hard-core fans like us who know the importance of cap space, that can be incredibly frustrating with an underperforming player. I know I've been harsher on players getting paid more because if they don't live up to that level of production, it really hurts the team more than if a cheaper guy isn't playing well. But in general, shouldn't we be mad at the GMs who sign those contracts rather than the players for getting them? Obviously, on this board, we've thrown plenty of criticism at GMs over the years for passing out big, undeserved contracts. But I feel like we've done a halfway decent job recognizing that players aren't really at fault for what they get paid (or where they get drafted). If a guy gets paid a ton and is obviously mailing it in, then we should have at it. But I don't think that's the case with Westbrook here. He's a former star getting paid like it who hasn't learned to adjust as he ages. It's the albatross contract teams fear they'll end up with on the tail end of a career. So what we're left with is the feeling that people have a right to mock a guy because he gets paid a lot of money and isn't that good any more. And if it's fans buying tickets or watching on League Pass, it might feel like we paid into the pool that helped pay that guy so we're essentially buying the right to make fun of him. I'm not totally comfortable with that. There's a lot of resentment out there these days about rich people, how they got rich, whether they've really earned it, etc., and I definitely think it's fair to have rational conversations about who really deserves to get what. But I don't like the idea of publicly booing and mocking a guy to show that we think he's getting more than he has earned or deserved.

I appreciate your points Cam. As I wrote, I actually do think he is flawed as a player and as a person. I can forgive a flawed player. A guy who just can't shoot, can't jump, has no hands, etc. As a person, I think Westbrook needs to set his ego aside, be a better teammate, and not take himself so seriously. If he did those things, he'd be able to become a much more effective player by limiting his jumpers, coming off the bench, and focusing on his strengths.

He's not a victim. At least, not in the sense that he's innocent and we should feel sorry for him. He definitely has a flawed and imperfect personality, as most of us do.

And maybe it's because he is like most of us that I just feel like mocking a guy publicly like that, when everybody else has already piled on, it just feels wrong. Because one day, that could be any of us. How many times have we seen a shaming mob turn on someone and just rip them apart publicly? People make mistakes. People aren't perfect. If we break the law, then obviously we should face the legal consequences. But I'm just not comfortable with the degree to which it feels sometimes like, consciously or not, we form courts of public opinion and quickly judge and punish people through mass public ridicule.

I think Drew nailed it with the following from his last post:

2. You're right, Westbrook has talked a lot of smack. I'm sure that the criticism he's gotten has been a bit of payback for that. And yes, if you dish it, you should be willing to take it. But I think it should be somewhat proportionate. If a guy like Pat Bev wants to talk some more smack back at him with a big smile on his face, ok. If KAT rocked the baby, ok. But it just felt to me like what happened at the game the other day went a bit beyond that line, especially because of the crowd. I think that's what I've got the bigger problem with is when a whole stadium starts mocking a guy, which happened almost every time he shot a jumper the other night. And it's happened a lot in the last few months, including in LA. All of that on top of whatever's out there online. It's almost like mocking Russ has become a meme to the extent that any casual fan at this point just learns that's what you do. I bet a lot of fans who are making fun of him couldn't explain that well, from a statistical standpoint, what kind of a player Russ is. They just know: people make fun of that guy when he shoots, he's a bad shooter, so let's make fun of him when he shoots.

For me it's less about Westbrook and more about what the mass piling on says about our culture. It's sort of a mob mentality. Westbrook has been a great player who has typically given his all on the court game after game for many years. We can try to explain away or caveat his triple doubles, but his ability to put up the numbers he's put up in all three categories is remarkable and deserves some significant level of respect. I'm more than fine with knowledgeable baseball fans like Cam criticizing Westbrook. I'm fine with opposing players giving back what Westbrook has been dishing out over the years. And I'm fine with fans booing him. But this incessant, snide mob mockery by a bunch of no-nothings bugs me. Alas, that's just part of life in today's Internet culture.

lipoli390 wrote:I think Drew nailed it with the following from his last post:

2. You're right, Westbrook has talked a lot of smack. I'm sure that the criticism he's gotten has been a bit of payback for that. And yes, if you dish it, you should be willing to take it. But I think it should be somewhat proportionate. If a guy like Pat Bev wants to talk some more smack back at him with a big smile on his face, ok. If KAT rocked the baby, ok. But it just felt to me like what happened at the game the other day went a bit beyond that line, especially because of the crowd. I think that's what I've got the bigger problem with is when a whole stadium starts mocking a guy, which happened almost every time he shot a jumper the other night. And it's happened a lot in the last few months, including in LA. All of that on top of whatever's out there online. It's almost like mocking Russ has become a meme to the extent that any casual fan at this point just learns that's what you do. I bet a lot of fans who are making fun of him couldn't explain that well, from a statistical standpoint, what kind of a player Russ is. They just know: people make fun of that guy when he shoots, he's a bad shooter, so let's make fun of him when he shoots.

For me it's less about Westbrook and more about what the mass piling on says about our culture. It's sort of a mob mentality. Westbrook has been a great player who has typically given his all on the court game after game for many years. We can try to explain away or caveat his triple doubles, but his ability to put up the numbers he's put up in all three categories is remarkable and deserves some significant level of respect. I'm more than fine with knowledgeable baseball fans like Cam criticizing Westbrook. I'm fine with opposing players giving back what Westbrook has been dishing out over the years. And I'm fine with fans booing him. But this incessant, snide mob mockery by a bunch of no-nothings bugs me. Alas, that's just part of life in today's Internet culture.

Aren't you a person that likes watching Stephen A Smith?

Edit: To clarify I don't disagree with much of what you said in the post it just seems weird to be willing to listen to a guy like SAS who either actually has no clue what he is talking about or pretends to and honesty often spews trash. Pundits like that in sports and in other arenas don't seem to help anything and there are a lot people seem to be willing to listen watch (it's entertainment not real expertise) which adds to ratings and give guys like SAS big paychecks. I just don't have time for that anymore.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:I think Drew nailed it with the following from his last post:

2. You're right, Westbrook has talked a lot of smack. I'm sure that the criticism he's gotten has been a bit of payback for that. And yes, if you dish it, you should be willing to take it. But I think it should be somewhat proportionate. If a guy like Pat Bev wants to talk some more smack back at him with a big smile on his face, ok. If KAT rocked the baby, ok. But it just felt to me like what happened at the game the other day went a bit beyond that line, especially because of the crowd. I think that's what I've got the bigger problem with is when a whole stadium starts mocking a guy, which happened almost every time he shot a jumper the other night. And it's happened a lot in the last few months, including in LA. All of that on top of whatever's out there online. It's almost like mocking Russ has become a meme to the extent that any casual fan at this point just learns that's what you do. I bet a lot of fans who are making fun of him couldn't explain that well, from a statistical standpoint, what kind of a player Russ is. They just know: people make fun of that guy when he shoots, he's a bad shooter, so let's make fun of him when he shoots.

For me it's less about Westbrook and more about what the mass piling on says about our culture. It's sort of a mob mentality. Westbrook has been a great player who has typically given his all on the court game after game for many years. We can try to explain away or caveat his triple doubles, but his ability to put up the numbers he's put up in all three categories is remarkable and deserves some significant level of respect. I'm more than fine with knowledgeable baseball fans like Cam criticizing Westbrook. I'm fine with opposing players giving back what Westbrook has been dishing out over the years. And I'm fine with fans booing him. But this incessant, snide mob mockery by a bunch of no-nothings bugs me. Alas, that's just part of life in today's Internet culture.

Aren't you a person that likes watching Stephen A Smith?

Lol. Yes. But he's not a mob of no-nothings who like to join a chorus of negative mockery. He's a loud-mouthed pundit who speaks his mind and who's in a position to be held accountable for what he says. He's entertaining. And while opinionated and verbose, he's not uninformed. And he's not always negative either.

Something that I find interesting about the Westbrook hate...

- James Harden literally stopped trying... TWICE... in 13 months. And quite probably faked an injury.
- Ben Simmons literally refused to play... and quite probably faked (or is faking) an injury and possibly mental illness.
- Anthony Davis has missed 33 games to various injuries or rest. LeBron James has missed 18 games to various injuries or rest.

Russell Westbrook has missed 1 game this season. He's 6th in the league in minutes at 2376... a full 450 more than James who is next closest on the Lakers (6 games missed). So despite being ripped more often and relentlessly than any other player in the league... Westbrook has kept showing up to work game after game after game... which apparently isn't as common as we might think.



[Note: But listen to a HUGE faction of fans/pundits, it's Westbrook's fault for the Lakers troubles... followed by a distant 2nd LeBron James, but only for choosing Westbrook as his teammate.]

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:I think Drew nailed it with the following from his last post:

2. You're right, Westbrook has talked a lot of smack. I'm sure that the criticism he's gotten has been a bit of payback for that. And yes, if you dish it, you should be willing to take it. But I think it should be somewhat proportionate. If a guy like Pat Bev wants to talk some more smack back at him with a big smile on his face, ok. If KAT rocked the baby, ok. But it just felt to me like what happened at the game the other day went a bit beyond that line, especially because of the crowd. I think that's what I've got the bigger problem with is when a whole stadium starts mocking a guy, which happened almost every time he shot a jumper the other night. And it's happened a lot in the last few months, including in LA. All of that on top of whatever's out there online. It's almost like mocking Russ has become a meme to the extent that any casual fan at this point just learns that's what you do. I bet a lot of fans who are making fun of him couldn't explain that well, from a statistical standpoint, what kind of a player Russ is. They just know: people make fun of that guy when he shoots, he's a bad shooter, so let's make fun of him when he shoots.

For me it's less about Westbrook and more about what the mass piling on says about our culture. It's sort of a mob mentality. Westbrook has been a great player who has typically given his all on the court game after game for many years. We can try to explain away or caveat his triple doubles, but his ability to put up the numbers he's put up in all three categories is remarkable and deserves some significant level of respect. I'm more than fine with knowledgeable baseball fans like Cam criticizing Westbrook. I'm fine with opposing players giving back what Westbrook has been dishing out over the years. And I'm fine with fans booing him. But this incessant, snide mob mockery by a bunch of no-nothings bugs me. Alas, that's just part of life in today's Internet culture.

Aren't you a person that likes watching Stephen A Smith?

Lol. Yes. But he's not a mob of no-nothings who like to join a chorus of negative mockery. He's a loud-mouthed pundit who speaks his mind and who's in a position to be held accountable for what he says. He's entertaining. And while opinionated and verbose, he's not uninformed. And he's not always negative either.

I have zero respect for SAS zero. Well except he absolutely knows how to do things to make money. He says absolute bullshit and has basically no consequences for it. Instead he gets rewarded. And you are complaining about no nothings saying mob joining negative mockery? Where are people learning that crap? Guy like SAS that say whatever shit they want deserve some of the blame. I honestly respect you a lot and I can't seriously you can stand watching that trash. Just because he isn't negative all the time doesn't mean he isn't having a poor effect and actually contributing to the thing you are speaking against. There is nobody that is uniformed about everything or has nothing worthwhile to say. Just to be clear I'm directing this at SAS and others like him not you as a person.