I think it's dangerous to think that Ben Simmons changes this team's defensive prowess by himself. Simply sliding him into the lineup definitely boosts their team effort on that end, but he can't account for the multiple defensive holes we'll have on the floor at any given moment. That's just a tall task.
Since we are talking about a significant chunk of time of this franchise I think it's worth saying that Simmons would be the best defensive player this franchise has had since KG. If somehow the Wolves keep him and McDaniels that COULD be quite a foundation to work on. I think Simmons next to Towns could really help Towns a lot. No we shouldn't get too carried away but adding Simmons a DPOY candidate would have a pretty big impact on that end.
I think it's dangerous to think that Ben Simmons changes this team's defensive prowess by himself. Simply sliding him into the lineup definitely boosts their team effort on that end, but he can't account for the multiple defensive holes we'll have on the floor at any given moment. That's just a tall task.
Since we are talking about a significant chunk of time of this franchise I think it's worth saying that Simmons would be the best defensive player this franchise has had since KG. If somehow the Wolves keep him and McDaniels that COULD be quite a foundation to work on. I think Simmons next to Towns could really help Towns a lot. No we shouldn't get too carried away but adding Simmons a DPOY candidate would have a pretty big impact on that end.
I'm not sure I'm willing to say that Ben Simmons is better defensively than Jimmy Butler was, but I get your point. I think it's a step in the right direction defensively, but Anthony Edwards, D'Angelo Russell, Malik Beasley, and Karl-Anthony Towns need to be better on that end and Simmons can't necessarily make that happen.
lipoli390 wrote:I think the stats Cam posted tell the tale. It's always tempting to focus on one thing and elevate its importance. That's something we often do with defense. I recognize the importance of defense to winning in the NBA. But the truth is, it's not all one thing or the other. It's a combination of things and, ultimately, it's simply a matter of how good your team is overall.
As Cam and others have noted, the Wolves' roster is built primarily for offense. History shows that you can be a playoff team and advance in the playoffs primarily as a really good offensive team even if your defense is bad. The better your offense, the more you can get away with poor defense and vise versa. The Wolves have nowhere to go statistically but up on both sides of the ball. The good news on the offensive end is that the Wolves are loaded with offensive talent in KAT, DLO, Beasley, KAT and even Naz. The good news on the defensive end is that defense is as much a matter of coaching, culture and effort as it is talent. I have a good feeling about Chris Finch and his ability to get the most out of his players on both sides of the ball.
The Wolves were something like 28th in defense from the time Finch took over as coach last season. Whatever he did had zero impact on the team's ability to get stops. Again, this is a cultural issue that has been passed down from player group to player group over the years. KAT, DLO, and Ant certainly won't be doing anything to change that reality I'm afraid. We're going to need to be in the top 5-10 offensively to have a shot at .500 ball.
Q - Finch wasn't around long enough last season to impact the team's defense or defensive culture. I'm convinced the defense will improve under him now that he's in place from the beginning with a full training camp before the season starts. The addition of Beverley and maturation of both McDaniels and Vanderbilt will also likely lead to defensive improvement. But we're not going to become a top-tier defensive team. Therefore, I agree with you that offense will be the key to the Wolves playoff chances.
I think it's dangerous to think that Ben Simmons changes this team's defensive prowess by himself. Simply sliding him into the lineup definitely boosts their team effort on that end, but he can't account for the multiple defensive holes we'll have on the floor at any given moment. That's just a tall task.
Since we are talking about a significant chunk of time of this franchise I think it's worth saying that Simmons would be the best defensive player this franchise has had since KG. If somehow the Wolves keep him and McDaniels that COULD be quite a foundation to work on. I think Simmons next to Towns could really help Towns a lot. No we shouldn't get too carried away but adding Simmons a DPOY candidate would have a pretty big impact on that end.
I'm not sure I'm willing to say that Ben Simmons is better defensively than Jimmy Butler was, but I get your point. I think it's a step in the right direction defensively, but Anthony Edwards, D'Angelo Russell, Malik Beasley, and Karl-Anthony Towns need to be better on that end and Simmons can't necessarily make that happen.
I'll explain where I am coming from with my statement. I don't what Simmons enough to make this judgement myself but last year there were a couple articles I read that had a number of NBA personnel that said Simmons was either DPOY or runner up to Gobert by a hair. Butler is a really good defender but he isn't that level if that's the case for Simmons. Simmons seems to have improved his defense over time. He is 25 is there another level to him on that end? Seems hard to believe but I guess it's possible.
I don't disagree with the statement here that both offense and defense are important. My main point is that the Wolves have built rosters that largely ignored defense the past 25 years (only 1 top ten defense in that period is astonishing), and they have been the least successful team in the NBA despite several seasons where they had a top 10 offense. What does that tell you?
Cam's point that you can win an NBA championship with a poor defense is true...the Nets were a terrible defensive team last year, and I would argue they would have been favored to win it all if they had been 100% healthy. But the Nets are also an anomaly, having 3 superb offensive players who are likely to one day be in the HOF. I would argue that it is near impossible to win a championship with a poor defense unless you have 3 HOFers scoring for you.
I read a study published in 2012 that the 10 previous champions all had top 10 defenses, and 8 of them were top 5. That says a lot, I think.
Unfortunately the current roster is not built for defensive excellence. There is one proven defender on the roster (Beverley) and the rest of our chance of being even mediocre is based on hope. Maybe Jaden is for real (I think he is). Maybe Ant can turn into a decent defender (the jury is still out). Maybe Dlo and Beas can become average defenders (I think most of us would say no chance). Maybe a roster that is almost certain to be the smallest (in terms of height and bulk) in the league can still compete defensively (again, doubtful). I'm confident that a healthy Wolves team will score some points...maybe even a top 10 offense. I just don't see much chance of outscoring our opponents in any more than 35 or so games this season.
Lip, I'm going to push back on your comment above that we elevate the importance of defense when we focus on it. We're Wolves fans, which means we celebrate offense and not defense, and that celebration exists in spades in this forum. If someone did a (very dull) experiment and counted the number of times we talk about offense rather than defense, I would submit it would be 10:1. The only two guys I can think of with a different ratio might be Jaden (marveling at how good he is for a young guy) and Dlo (either ripping him, or hopefully pointing out rays of hope). Take Naz for instance. I'm fairly confident the ratio of offensive to defensive comments about him might be more like 25:1. We talk a lot about his 3-point propensity and his above average ability to put the ball on the floor and get to the basket, but we very seldom talk about his defense...which is limited at best.
Some of us are basking in the afterglow of a Rosas trade that actually seemed to emphasize defense. But bringing in one aging player who will not start barring injury isn't an indication that Gersson has a new outlook. I look more toward the rest of the deals he has made, and think we will be defensively challenged as long as he remains POBO.
Yeah, their inability to go get some more size up front or at least trade for another defensive-oriented PF to split time with Vando is disappointing to me.
Q12543 wrote:Yeah, their inability to go get some more size up front or at least trade for another defensive-oriented PF to split time with Vando is disappointing to me.
Yeah, I can't think of a team that is going to be tinier than us. There's some evidence at least that Rosas isn't completely clueless about realizing how undersized this roster is if you believe some of the names he was rumored to be after. Collins, Nance, JaMychal Green, Gasol, Millsap...all would have helped with our size issue. So maybe Gersson is starting to get it a little...he just can't get it done.
Q12543 wrote:Yeah, their inability to go get some more size up front or at least trade for another defensive-oriented PF to split time with Vando is disappointing to me.
Yeah, I can't think of a team that is going to be tinier than us. There's some evidence at least that Rosas isn't completely clueless about realizing how undersized this roster is if you believe some of the names he was rumored to be after. Collins, Nance, JaMychal Green, Gasol, Millsap...all would have helped with our size issue. So maybe Gersson is starting to get it a little...he just can't get it done.
Wolves are the 2nd smallest team in the NBA. Rockets are the only team smaller
FNG wrote:I don't disagree with the statement here that both offense and defense are important. My main point is that the Wolves have built rosters that largely ignored defense the past 25 years (only 1 top ten defense in that period is astonishing), and they have been the least successful team in the NBA despite several seasons where they had a top 10 offense. What does that tell you?
Cam's point that you can win an NBA championship with a poor defense is true...the Nets were a terrible defensive team last year, and I would argue they would have been favored to win it all if they had been 100% healthy. But the Nets are also an anomaly, having 3 superb offensive players who are likely to one day be in the HOF. I would argue that it is near impossible to win a championship with a poor defense unless you have 3 HOFers scoring for you.
I read a study published in 2012 that the 10 previous champions all had top 10 defenses, and 8 of them were top 5. That says a lot, I think.
Unfortunately the current roster is not built for defensive excellence. There is one proven defender on the roster (Beverley) and the rest of our chance of being even mediocre is based on hope. Maybe Jaden is for real (I think he is). Maybe Ant can turn into a decent defender (the jury is still out). Maybe Dlo and Beas can become average defenders (I think most of us would say no chance). Maybe a roster that is almost certain to be the smallest (in terms of height and bulk) in the league can still compete defensively (again, doubtful). I'm confident that a healthy Wolves team will score some points...maybe even a top 10 offense. I just don't see much chance of outscoring our opponents in any more than 35 or so games this season.
Lip, I'm going to push back on your comment above that we elevate the importance of defense when we focus on it. We're Wolves fans, which means we celebrate offense and not defense, and that celebration exists in spades in this forum. If someone did a (very dull) experiment and counted the number of times we talk about offense rather than defense, I would submit it would be 10:1. The only two guys I can think of with a different ratio might be Jaden (marveling at how good he is for a young guy) and Dlo (either ripping him, or hopefully pointing out rays of hope). Take Naz for instance. I'm fairly confident the ratio of offensive to defensive comments about him might be more like 25:1. We talk a lot about his 3-point propensity and his above average ability to put the ball on the floor and get to the basket, but we very seldom talk about his defense...which is limited at best.
Some of us are basking in the afterglow of a Rosas trade that actually seemed to emphasize defense. But bringing in one aging player who will not start barring injury isn't an indication that Gersson has a new outlook. I look more toward the rest of the deals he has made, and think we will be defensively challenged as long as he remains POBO.
Fair points, FNG. Maybe we celebrate offense more than defense as Wolves fans. But what I was getting at is the tendency to emphasize defense as the only path to winning. It's part of the cliche that "defense wins championships." I thought Cam's stats were telling because they show that offense can win championships too. And obviously, it's the combo of the two. The Wolves were terrible statistically on both sides of the ball last season. So I expect them to improve on both ends. However, we all know the talent on the current roster is geared far more to the offensive side of the ball. I think our offense was stifled last season by a combination of injuries, youth and poor coaching by Ryan Saunders. If we're healthy this upcoming season, I expect us to be very good offensively with the maturation of our young guys and the coaching of Finch. I also expect our defensive to be better with the addition of Beverly, the maturation of McDaniels and Vanderbilt and the coaching of Finch. But I still expect us to be a bottom-15 defense because of who we have as the main guys on our roster. If this team can be a top 10 team on the offensive end, they can be pretty good. I still think we need to add a defensive big like Millsap or a potentially good defender with more size than Vanderbilt - someone like Hartenstein. Ideally, we'd add Myles Turner.
FNG wrote:I don't disagree with the statement here that both offense and defense are important. My main point is that the Wolves have built rosters that largely ignored defense the past 25 years (only 1 top ten defense in that period is astonishing), and they have been the least successful team in the NBA despite several seasons where they had a top 10 offense. What does that tell you?
Cam's point that you can win an NBA championship with a poor defense is true...the Nets were a terrible defensive team last year, and I would argue they would have been favored to win it all if they had been 100% healthy. But the Nets are also an anomaly, having 3 superb offensive players who are likely to one day be in the HOF. I would argue that it is near impossible to win a championship with a poor defense unless you have 3 HOFers scoring for you.
I read a study published in 2012 that the 10 previous champions all had top 10 defenses, and 8 of them were top 5. That says a lot, I think.
Unfortunately the current roster is not built for defensive excellence. There is one proven defender on the roster (Beverley) and the rest of our chance of being even mediocre is based on hope. Maybe Jaden is for real (I think he is). Maybe Ant can turn into a decent defender (the jury is still out). Maybe Dlo and Beas can become average defenders (I think most of us would say no chance). Maybe a roster that is almost certain to be the smallest (in terms of height and bulk) in the league can still compete defensively (again, doubtful). I'm confident that a healthy Wolves team will score some points...maybe even a top 10 offense. I just don't see much chance of outscoring our opponents in any more than 35 or so games this season.
Lip, I'm going to push back on your comment above that we elevate the importance of defense when we focus on it. We're Wolves fans, which means we celebrate offense and not defense, and that celebration exists in spades in this forum. If someone did a (very dull) experiment and counted the number of times we talk about offense rather than defense, I would submit it would be 10:1. The only two guys I can think of with a different ratio might be Jaden (marveling at how good he is for a young guy) and Dlo (either ripping him, or hopefully pointing out rays of hope). Take Naz for instance. I'm fairly confident the ratio of offensive to defensive comments about him might be more like 25:1. We talk a lot about his 3-point propensity and his above average ability to put the ball on the floor and get to the basket, but we very seldom talk about his defense...which is limited at best.
Some of us are basking in the afterglow of a Rosas trade that actually seemed to emphasize defense. But bringing in one aging player who will not start barring injury isn't an indication that Gersson has a new outlook. I look more toward the rest of the deals he has made, and think we will be defensively challenged as long as he remains POBO.
Fair points, FNG. Maybe we celebrate offense more than defense as Wolves fans. But what I was getting at is the tendency to emphasize defense as the only path to winning. It's part of the cliche that "defense wins championships." I thought Cam's stats were telling because they show that offense can win championships too. And obviously, it's the combo of the two. The Wolves were terrible statistically on both sides of the ball last season. So I expect them to improve on both ends. However, we all know the talent on the current roster is geared far more to the offensive side of the ball. I think our offense was stifled last season by a combination of injuries, youth and poor coaching by Ryan Saunders. If we're healthy this upcoming season, I expect us to be very good offensively with the maturation of our young guys and the coaching of Finch. I also expect our defensive to be better with the addition of Beverly, the maturation of McDaniels and Vanderbilt and the coaching of Finch. But I still expect us to be a bottom-15 defense because of who we have as the main guys on our roster. If this team can be a top 10 team on the offensive end, they can be pretty good. I still think we need to add a defensive big like Millsap or a potentially good defender with more size than Vanderbilt - someone like Hartenstein. Ideally, we'd add Myles Turner.
Gotcha, Lip. Actually an internet search on "is NBA offense or defense more important" turns up mixed results, with perhaps more opinions saying offense is more key. I think we all would love to see a Wolves team that could have a chance of being a top ten team at both ends of the court, but we all know a more reasonable goal is to at least get out of the bottom three on defense. That's why my Simmons excitement level was triggered today by Cam's post on which I concluded we still have an outside chance of trading for him. I commented in another thread that we instantly would become a top 10 defense with the Simmons/Beverly/Jaden triad and the somewhat improved defensive KAT we saw last year. But I would argue we would also be a top 10 offense. Heck, if Simmons could direct Philly to a 13th ranking on offense with their top two scorers (Embiid and Harris) missing 51 games, there's a good chance he could do even better with a healthy KAT and Ant next to him.
I share your wish that we could add some size in the form of a Hartenstein or Turner. And I understand your guarded optimism about the D improving this year because of Beverley, Finch and the maturation of our younger guys. But I could just as easily construct an argument that we may actually be worse this season defensively. Arguably our two worst defenders, Beasley and Dlo, only played 79 games between them last season...less than half the games. We all hope they are healthier this year because having them both on the court could really make this a potent offense. But a cynic might say that it will have an opposite impact on our already poor defense. Time will tell, I guess.
