Minnesota Sports Forum

Whether you like him or hate him... Wiggins is gonna get his minutes.

He played 41+ minutes last night.

kekgeek1 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Wiggins was unwatchable tonight. His stats so grossly overstate his contribution tonight as they often do. I don't know how much you could see on TV, but at the arena you couldn't help but see Andrew the jogger. I think he uses games as his workout jogging time. Maybe the most disgusting moment was in the second quarter when KAT was battling like hell fighting for the ball against 3 Warrior players when the ball finally found its way to a Golden State player for a 12-foot jumper. The next thing I saw was Wiggins literally jogging casually out to the shooter who easily scored as Wiggins slowly made his way for a laughable closeout. I so badly want the Wolves to get rid of him. If only we could find a taker who wouldn't require us to include any future 1st round draft picks to take him off our hands. But that's not likely. If only we could get the Bulls to take Wiggins straight up for LaVine, but alas the Bulls would laugh at Layden if he suggested that deal. We can't just sit Wiggins because doing that would even further diminish his already minimal trade value.

So we're stuck with him. And that means I'll have to vent from time to time as I am right now. OK, I feel better. Good night to you all.

I just watched the 1st half and I agree with you on Wiggins, I mean I posted he doesn't give two shits. But I feel like we are at the point Wiggins can't do right in people's mind anymore. I mean he had a 20/8/6 game against the best team in basketball on solid % and held Durant in check and we are still sick of him

Durant held Durant in check last night. Otherwise, Wiggins put up good numbers last night. But for anyone in the arena paying close attention last night, watching Wiggins was painful - not a single sharp cut off the ball, jogging casually on both ends except the times he drove the the hole with the ball, missing soft layups that should have been dunks. We have a lot of very knowledgeable fans in sitting around us in our section and every single one expressed disgust with Wiggins performance last night. We all had some laughs with a number of Andrew's rebounds, which fell right into his hands. "Hey, look what I've got." It's testament to Andrew's talent that he's able to have a 20/6/8 game with his astounding lack of effort or intensity, although I can't get to excited about 42% field goal shooting and hitting only 1 of 8 three-point attempts. He was never double covered and it was clear the Warriors weren't putting much of a team effort into guarding him. In any event, Andrew's numbers last night all exceeded his season averages, which include a below 40% field goal percentage. Good for him. But he was still unwatchable sitting in that arena. The more you see of him - e.g., in the arena v. video, the more unwatchable he is.

I'm with the posts about Tyus disappointing but later int he game I thought to myself...Tyus is a true PG and he is playing with basically one elite offensive player in Towns and then a nice enough player like Saric and then Okogie and Wiggins who are pretty flawed. Tyus looked better playing with a bunch of guys that could score and he could do his thing. I'm not suggesting he is the answer or we should pay X amount to keep him but I do think he has more value than he has been showing lately...but it was pretty rough in this game for sure. If the right teams draft a PG I think we can end up with Tyus for a pretty reasonable sum. We can't overpay him.

As for the game...after the early flurry the outcome wasn't in question, but at least the Wolves didn't just get blown out of the building. Towns is kinda good and yeah he is kinda surrounded by scrubs or as Jim Pete said "backup singers". Some of the backup singers might be helpful but we need another player than can put real consistent pressure on the defense. This is one reason we need to bring back Rose on a reasonable deal and take what he can give us even if its just for 54 games a year or whatever. We need a guy that can get some buckets relatively efficiently for this team.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Whether you like him or hate him... Wiggins is gonna get his minutes.

He played 41+ minutes last night.

You are right, Abe. And at this point, he has to play. Benching him would just further diminish his already minimal and diminishing trade value. We have to hope that he does enough while playing to impress some GM in the League enough to trade for him without demanding that we hand over a future 1st round pick or Okogie as part of the package. By the way, it's important to acknowledge that there is no realistic trade scenario that would bring in a quality player in return for Wiggins. We just have to hope we get a salary-match player on a shorter contract.

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Whether you like him or hate him... Wiggins is gonna get his minutes.

He played 41+ minutes last night.

You are right, Abe. And at this point, he has to play. Benching him would just further diminish his already minimal and diminishing trade value. We have to hope that he does enough while playing to impress some GM in the League enough to trade for him without demanding that we hand over a future 1st round pick or Okogie as part of the package. By the way, it's important to acknowledge that there is no realistic trade scenario that would bring in a quality player in return for Wiggins. We just have to hope we get a salary-match player on a shorter contract.

If we are really to the point we're we would have to actually pay to get rid of Wiggins...we might as well start treating him as a total reclamation project and keep him going into next year. I get the idea that just having Wiggins the player (aside from the contract) might be holding the team back might as well hope that he sucks a lot less next year (likely especially shooting percentages) and maybe trends towards being a bit more useful. If he doesn't...I don't think we have lost much in the process. If Wiggins is a reclamation project not a piece of the puzzle like he had been considered before then he doesn't get 30+ minutes no matter what anymore. I will say in this game KBD was struggling offensively and Wiggins didn't play as good as the stat line but he was making some shots and the Wolves needed to score....pretty bad so I can see why Wiggins was in there.

monsterpile wrote:I'm with the posts about Tyus disappointing but later int he game I thought to myself...Tyus is a true PG and he is playing with basically one elite offensive player in Towns and then a nice enough player like Saric and then Okogie and Wiggins who are pretty flawed. Tyus looked better playing with a bunch of guys that could score and he could do his thing. I'm not suggesting he is the answer or we should pay X amount to keep him but I do think he has more value than he has been showing lately...but it was pretty rough in this game for sure. If the right teams draft a PG I think we can end up with Tyus for a pretty reasonable sum. We can't overpay him.

As for the game...after the early flurry the outcome wasn't in question, but at least the Wolves didn't just get blown out of the building. Towns is kinda good and yeah he is kinda surrounded by scrubs or as Jim Pete said "backup singers". Some of the backup singers might be helpful but we need another player than can put real consistent pressure on the defense. This is one reason we need to bring back Rose on a reasonable deal and take what he can give us even if its just for 54 games a year or whatever. We need a guy that can get some buckets relatively efficiently for this team.

Excellent analysis, Monster.

I agree with you on Tyus. He doesn't fit well when only one elite offensive player. I'll add that the offensive system is poorly designed for him because it lacks the off-ball movement and spacing that would work best for a pure PG like Tyus. As I've been watching it has become clear that this is still basically, Thibs' offense. To be fair, Ryan hasn't had a lot of time to fundamentally change that system, although you can see that there is less dribbling and a somewhat faster pace to the offense.

I also agree that we should bring back Derrick Rose - assuming he agrees to a reasonable deal.

A word about Okogie. Yes, his shooting this season has been terrible and he's made a number of mistakes, especially on the defensive end. But his tremendous effort and intensity have remained consistent and his talent remains readily apparent. Note also that his shooting has been terrific these past two games. Last night he scored 19 points on 67% shooting from the field and 50% shooting from behind the arc. Against Houston he had 21 points on 57% shooting while hitting 43% of his three-point attempts. His shooting mechanics aren't broken. He just needs to continue shooting in the gym this offseason. In games, he needs to get his feet set. Meanwhile, he has an elite combination of length, athleticism and intensity. I'll add, as I've said before, that he has excellent instincts - a high basketball IQ - that often shows itself in his decisions with the ball. He's a very good passer.

So I'm not prepared to despair over this season. KAT is a superstar. Okogie is still an elite prospect. KBD has been pretty impressive as he's started to get some minutes recently. Saric has a lot to offer and he hasn't quite turned 25 yet. Derrick Rose still has a lot of game left and there's a good chance he'll re-sign here for a reasonable deal. We'll have our full MLE to spend on a free agent. And we should have a top 13 pick in the upcoming draft.

lipoli390 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Wiggins was unwatchable tonight. His stats so grossly overstate his contribution tonight as they often do. I don't know how much you could see on TV, but at the arena you couldn't help but see Andrew the jogger. I think he uses games as his workout jogging time. Maybe the most disgusting moment was in the second quarter when KAT was battling like hell fighting for the ball against 3 Warrior players when the ball finally found its way to a Golden State player for a 12-foot jumper. The next thing I saw was Wiggins literally jogging casually out to the shooter who easily scored as Wiggins slowly made his way for a laughable closeout. I so badly want the Wolves to get rid of him. If only we could find a taker who wouldn't require us to include any future 1st round draft picks to take him off our hands. But that's not likely. If only we could get the Bulls to take Wiggins straight up for LaVine, but alas the Bulls would laugh at Layden if he suggested that deal. We can't just sit Wiggins because doing that would even further diminish his already minimal trade value.

So we're stuck with him. And that means I'll have to vent from time to time as I am right now. OK, I feel better. Good night to you all.

I just watched the 1st half and I agree with you on Wiggins, I mean I posted he doesn't give two shits. But I feel like we are at the point Wiggins can't do right in people's mind anymore. I mean he had a 20/8/6 game against the best team in basketball on solid % and held Durant in check and we are still sick of him

Durant held Durant in check last night. Otherwise, Wiggins put up good numbers last night. But for anyone in the arena paying close attention last night, watching Wiggins was painful - not a single sharp cut off the ball, jogging casually on both ends except the times he drove the the hole with the ball, missing soft layups that should have been dunks. We have a lot of very knowledgeable fans in sitting around us in our section and every single one expressed disgust with Wiggins performance last night. We all had some laughs with a number of Andrew's rebounds, which fell right into his hands. "Hey, look what I've got." It's testament to Andrew's talent that he's able to have a 20/6/8 game with his astounding lack of effort or intensity, although I can't get to excited about 42% field goal shooting and hitting only 1 of 8 three-point attempts. He was never double covered and it was clear the Warriors weren't putting much of a team effort into guarding him. In any event, Andrew's numbers last night all exceeded his season averages, which include a below 40% field goal percentage. Good for him. But he was still unwatchable sitting in that arena. The more you see of him - e.g., in the arena v. video, the more unwatchable he is.

Fair point

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Whether you like him or hate him... Wiggins is gonna get his minutes.

He played 41+ minutes last night.

You are right, Abe. And at this point, he has to play. Benching him would just further diminish his already minimal and diminishing trade value. We have to hope that he does enough while playing to impress some GM in the League enough to trade for him without demanding that we hand over a future 1st round pick or Okogie as part of the package. By the way, it's important to acknowledge that there is no realistic trade scenario that would bring in a quality player in return for Wiggins. We just have to hope we get a salary-match player on a shorter contract.

If we are really to the point we're we would have to actually pay to get rid of Wiggins...we might as well start treating him as a total reclamation project and keep him going into next year. I get the idea that just having Wiggins the player (aside from the contract) might be holding the team back might as well hope that he sucks a lot less next year (likely especially shooting percentages) and maybe trends towards being a bit more useful. If he doesn't...I don't think we have lost much in the process. If Wiggins is a reclamation project not a piece of the puzzle like he had been considered before then he doesn't get 30+ minutes no matter what anymore. I will say in this game KBD was struggling offensively and Wiggins didn't play as good as the stat line but he was making some shots and the Wolves needed to score....pretty bad so I can see why Wiggins was in there.

I agree completely, Monster. I think you hit the nail on the head in suggesting that we treat Wiggins as a reclaimation project. I was trying to figure out how to describe where we're at with Wiggins and when I read your post I said to myself, "that's what I meant!" :) Seriously, that's where we're at with Wiggins. If we get a decent offer, I'd trade him. But otherwise, it's all about trying to get enough out of him so that he's either worth keeping longer term or his trade value rises to an acceptable level for a decent deal. So I can't fault Ryan for playing him.

One quibble: If Okogie is still an "elite" prospect... literally every NBA team has at least one (if not 3, 4 or even 5) "elite" prospects.

Effort (especially when misguided) is not enough to make somebody elite.

kekgeek1 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:Im starting to really sour on Tyus Jones, of the 313 players in the NBA that have played 40+ games Tyus ranks 298th in TS%

Tyus is no offensive threat at all and is really killing the spacing when he plays with Okogie, got to be the worst shooting backcourt in NBA history. Kills the spacing for Towns

Such a disappointing development. Here is a guy that did the rare thing for Minnesota draft picks - he actually improved in each of his first three seasons! And remember he came in to the league very young, so there was reason to believe the improvement would continue. But nope. We can't have nice things as Wolves fans, so inexplicably he forgets how to make shots in a year that most young players really start to get into their comfort zone.

Once again Tyus has a spot in this league. I think he is a solid backup PG for all the little things he does well. But his lack of scoring/shooting hampers him from being a starting caliber PG.

Now how much is a backup PG worth? I'm not sure. I know people disagree with me but with KAT probably making All NBA that is 6 million less we can distribute to players like Tyus. That hurts us.

I don't think it's small sample sized that we are 23-19 with Teague and 9-20 without him

I'm not ready to concede that Tyus can't be a quality starting PG with the right mix of players around him. And I haven't totally given up on him as a shooter. I'm not sure how much stock we can put in the W/L comparison to Teague. I'd want to know how many games Teague and Tyus started with Covington in the lineup. I'd want to know who we played in those games and at what point in the season. For example, Teague was our starting PG when the Wolves were still in contention for the playoffs with everyone highly motivated. But I haven't gone back to compare so I don't know. And unlike Teague, who is in his prime, I still think Tyus has upside left as he is barely 23 and hasn't had consistent minutes. That said, I'd not banking on Tyus as a key to the Wolves future. I'm just not as prepared as some to dismiss him as a possible starting PG for the Wolves over the long haul. Just to be clear - if we get lucky and end up with the 2nd pick in the draft, I'd take Ja Morant in a heartbeat over Barrett or anyone else. And if Darius Garland falls to us at 12 or 13, I'd take him in a heartbeat. So I don't want to hitch the Wolves' wagon to Tyus at the point. I just see more potential there with Tyus than others see.