What You Would Have Done Differently

[60WinTim]

I beg to differ on Patterson vs Gibson. Gibson is a servicable starting PF in this league. Patterson is just a bench guy. The numbers on these two players bears this out.

By many accounts, the Wolves top priority heading into the offseason was a starting PF. Milsap was an early target - he got 30 mil. Ibaka got 20 mil. Next best starting PF? Taj Gibson got 14 mil.

For those lamenting how "cheap" Patterson was signed for... First, he is a bench guy, not a starter. Second, he was slowed by a lingering knee issue last year that cost him nearly a quarter of the season. That knee was not getting better on it's own. So soon after signing with OKC he underwent surgery on that knee and still has not seen the floor.

Does anyone really still wish they had Patrick Patterson?!?

[KiwiMatt]

I beg to differ on Patterson vs Gibson. Gibson is a servicable starting PF in this league. Patterson is just a bench guy. The numbers on these two players bears this out.

By many accounts, the Wolves top priority heading into the offseason was a starting PF. Milsap was an early target - he got 30 mil. Ibaka got 20 mil. Next best starting PF? Taj Gibson got 14 mil.

For those lamenting how "cheap" Patterson was signed for... First, he is a bench guy, not a starter. Second, he was slowed by a lingering knee issue last year that cost him nearly a quarter of the season. That knee was not getting better on it's own. So soon after signing with OKC he underwent surgery on that knee and still has not seen the floor.

Does anyone really still wish they had Patrick Patterson?!?

I too don't understand the love for PatPat. I also don't understand the love for Tony Snell and to a lesser extent Joe Ingles, especially considering the money they got paid and how long their contracts are.

[Lipoli390]

Are these things that actually could have happened? Because honestly what Thibs pulled off exceeded my imagination. But as long as were talking hypothetical I guess I would have traded Ricky for CP3 and still did the Butler deal and suffered having very little depth in the front court because we wouldn't have money for Taj. Every move Thibs made gave us improvement at the respective place in the roster. I could dream up scenarios where we could have still done that but I doubt any of the suggestions could have been pulled off in reality.

Are these things that could have happened? Well, we could have kept Ricky rather than sign Teague. And we could have drafted John Collins instead of Patton. Those things we know for sure. Could we have signed Dedmon, Patterson or Moute instead of Gibson and saved around $7M in cap space. Can't know that for sure, but given what we know they signed for and given how attractive the Wolves became after acquiring Butler, it's highly likely one of those guys would have signed here for around $7 million per year. Could we have signed Ingles or Snell for $12 million per year. That's the least certain of all the things I would have done differently. But given what these guys signed for and the important role they could have been given on an attractive team like the Wolves, signing one of these guys was a reasonable scenario. I'm sure you don't really equate any of those scenarios with trading Ricky for CP3.

[Monster]

I would have given this guy a 4 year deal look at this shot blocking!!!!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1AwY2cGiv6A

[Monster]

Are these things that actually could have happened? Because honestly what Thibs pulled off exceeded my imagination. But as long as were talking hypothetical I guess I would have traded Ricky for CP3 and still did the Butler deal and suffered having very little depth in the front court because we wouldn't have money for Taj. Every move Thibs made gave us improvement at the respective place in the roster. I could dream up scenarios where we could have still done that but I doubt any of the suggestions could have been pulled off in reality.

Are these things that could have happened? Well, we could have kept Ricky rather than sign Teague. And we could have drafted John Collins instead of Patton. Those things we know for sure. Could we have signed Dedmon, Patterson or Moute instead of Gibson and saved around $7M in cap space. Can't know that for sure, but given what we know they signed for and given how attractive the Wolves became after acquiring Butler, it's highly likely one of those guys would have signed here for around $7 million per year. Could we have signed Ingles or Snell for $12 million per year. That's the least certain of all the things I would have done differently. But given what these guys signed for and the important role they could have been given on an attractive team like the Wolves, signing one of these guys was a reasonable scenario. I'm sure you don't really equate any of those scenarios with trading Ricky for CP3.

Well something to consider that in your scenario you aren't getting Bazz back for the min as there would not be an opening to playing time.

[Lipoli390]

Are these things that actually could have happened? Because honestly what Thibs pulled off exceeded my imagination. But as long as were talking hypothetical I guess I would have traded Ricky for CP3 and still did the Butler deal and suffered having very little depth in the front court because we wouldn't have money for Taj. Every move Thibs made gave us improvement at the respective place in the roster. I could dream up scenarios where we could have still done that but I doubt any of the suggestions could have been pulled off in reality.

Are these things that could have happened? Well, we could have kept Ricky rather than sign Teague. And we could have drafted John Collins instead of Patton. Those things we know for sure. Could we have signed Dedmon, Patterson or Moute instead of Gibson and saved around $7M in cap space. Can't know that for sure, but given what we know they signed for and given how attractive the Wolves became after acquiring Butler, it's highly likely one of those guys would have signed here for around $7 million per year. Could we have signed Ingles or Snell for $12 million per year. That's the least certain of all the things I would have done differently. But given what these guys signed for and the important role they could have been given on an attractive team like the Wolves, signing one of these guys was a reasonable scenario. I'm sure you don't really equate any of those scenarios with trading Ricky for CP3.

Well something to consider that in your scenario you aren't getting Bazz back for the min as there would not be an opening to playing time.

I thought to that, Monster. I'd still prefer Ingles or Snell at $12 million per year over Bazz even though I really like Bazz and I'm thrilled we re-signed him for the vet minimum.

This brings me back to my intent in starting this thread. My intent wasn't to suggest that Thibs screwed up. I actually think he did a terrific job. The Butler acquisition was tremendous and while I can see the argument for dealing Wiggins instead of Zach, I actually agree with Thibs decision to keep Wiggins. While I don't like what we paid for Gibson based on what I consider to be better foregone opportunities, I still see adding Gibson as a significant upgrade. Although I would have kept Ricky and saved $5 million in cap space, I like Teague's penetration and shooting and I like that we got a 1st round pick out of the deal. Crawford upgrades our bench. And adding Bazz for the minimum was a terrific move.

I would have done a few things differently that I believe would have made the off-season even more successful for the Wolves. Now we'll watch things unfold over the season and get some sense of whether the Wolves would have been better off if Thibs had done some or all of the things some of us have suggested.

[Monster]

Are these things that actually could have happened? Because honestly what Thibs pulled off exceeded my imagination. But as long as were talking hypothetical I guess I would have traded Ricky for CP3 and still did the Butler deal and suffered having very little depth in the front court because we wouldn't have money for Taj. Every move Thibs made gave us improvement at the respective place in the roster. I could dream up scenarios where we could have still done that but I doubt any of the suggestions could have been pulled off in reality.

Are these things that could have happened? Well, we could have kept Ricky rather than sign Teague. And we could have drafted John Collins instead of Patton. Those things we know for sure. Could we have signed Dedmon, Patterson or Moute instead of Gibson and saved around $7M in cap space. Can't know that for sure, but given what we know they signed for and given how attractive the Wolves became after acquiring Butler, it's highly likely one of those guys would have signed here for around $7 million per year. Could we have signed Ingles or Snell for $12 million per year. That's the least certain of all the things I would have done differently. But given what these guys signed for and the important role they could have been given on an attractive team like the Wolves, signing one of these guys was a reasonable scenario. I'm sure you don't really equate any of those scenarios with trading Ricky for CP3.

Well something to consider that in your scenario you aren't getting Bazz back for the min as there would not be an opening to playing time.

I thought to that, Monster. I'd still prefer Ingles or Snell at $12 million per year over Bazz even though I really like Bazz and I'm thrilled we re-signed him for the vet minimum.

This brings me back to my intent in starting this thread. My intent wasn't to suggest that Thibs screwed up. I actually think he did a terrific job. The Butler acquisition was tremendous and while I can see the argument for dealing Wiggins instead of Zach, I actually agree with Thibs decision to keep Wiggins. While I don't like what we paid for Gibson based on what I consider to be better foregone opportunities, I still see adding Gibson as a significant upgrade. Although I would have kept Ricky and saved $5 million in cap space, I like Teague's penetration and shooting and I like that we got a 1st round pick out of the deal. Crawford upgrades our bench. And adding Bazz for the minimum was a terrific move.

I would have done a few things differently that I believe would have made the off-season even more successful for the Wolves. Now we'll watch things unfold over the season and get some sense of whether the Wolves would have been better off if Thibs had done some or all of the things some of us have suggested.

Good and well thought out post Lip. A couple things I consider while I read through it. I hope these come as legit things to ponder not as knocking your ideas because like I said I think they are well thought out.

Snell resigned for 4/46 and Ingles resigned for 4/52. Those weren't matching contracts. It's fair to consider how much more you would have had to offer to actually get those guys away from their teams.

It was about a year ago the Bulls traded Snell to the Bucks for MCW. It was a trade that was somewhere of a decent player for damaged goods arranging the deck chairs type deal although obviously the Bucks needed a wing with Middleton hurt. Before this year Snell was a somewhat promising role player wing that was still underwhelming. He mostly got paid for what he did last year. Is that who he is?

What about Joe Ingles? I'm a fan and I don't think general stats are gonna show his value but he is now 30 years old and his best year of his career was last year. some people seem to be worried about guys in their 30's is that a consideration?

So really the money we are talking about signing Ingles or Snell is the money we signed Taj for. An arguement can be made that those guys have now been paid passed on a combined 2 years of legit rotation level players for playoff teams while Taj has been doing it for years. The big difference is that bigs are easier to come by and Wings are much more difficult. I think we do put some guys as known commodities when they really aren't. I'm not saying that banking on Snell or Ingles is dumb or crazy far from it but there is some uncertainty there.

Bazz's career could take a Snell turn where he starts hitting 3's and starts being more useful on defense making him a guy teams find has value. You and I seem to think that has a decent chance to happen. If it does the Wolves will be able to keep him if they want to AND have the players they brought in this offseason.

I see where your idea of this thread. My FA look back thread's point wa stake the cap space/money as a whole and look at the guys that where rough in and see if you like the group for the total amount of money. My guess is that if the Wolves saved a few million bucks on signing a PF some of that savings would have gone to sign Bazz. Regardless I think we were trying to look at the offseason as a whole but coming at different angles. Fortunately soon we will have more to go on to evaluate what happened this offseason that just what these players have done in the past.

[thedoper]

Are these things that actually could have happened? Because honestly what Thibs pulled off exceeded my imagination. But as long as were talking hypothetical I guess I would have traded Ricky for CP3 and still did the Butler deal and suffered having very little depth in the front court because we wouldn't have money for Taj. Every move Thibs made gave us improvement at the respective place in the roster. I could dream up scenarios where we could have still done that but I doubt any of the suggestions could have been pulled off in reality.

Are these things that could have happened? Well, we could have kept Ricky rather than sign Teague. And we could have drafted John Collins instead of Patton. Those things we know for sure. Could we have signed Dedmon, Patterson or Moute instead of Gibson and saved around $7M in cap space. Can't know that for sure, but given what we know they signed for and given how attractive the Wolves became after acquiring Butler, it's highly likely one of those guys would have signed here for around $7 million per year. Could we have signed Ingles or Snell for $12 million per year. That's the least certain of all the things I would have done differently. But given what these guys signed for and the important role they could have been given on an attractive team like the Wolves, signing one of these guys was a reasonable scenario. I'm sure you don't really equate any of those scenarios with trading Ricky for CP3.

Well something to consider that in your scenario you aren't getting Bazz back for the min as there would not be an opening to playing time.

I thought to that, Monster. I'd still prefer Ingles or Snell at $12 million per year over Bazz even though I really like Bazz and I'm thrilled we re-signed him for the vet minimum.

This brings me back to my intent in starting this thread. My intent wasn't to suggest that Thibs screwed up. I actually think he did a terrific job. The Butler acquisition was tremendous and while I can see the argument for dealing Wiggins instead of Zach, I actually agree with Thibs decision to keep Wiggins. While I don't like what we paid for Gibson based on what I consider to be better foregone opportunities, I still see adding Gibson as a significant upgrade. Although I would have kept Ricky and saved $5 million in cap space, I like Teague's penetration and shooting and I like that we got a 1st round pick out of the deal. Crawford upgrades our bench. And adding Bazz for the minimum was a terrific move.

I would have done a few things differently that I believe would have made the off-season even more successful for the Wolves. Now we'll watch things unfold over the season and get some sense of whether the Wolves would have been better off if Thibs had done some or all of the things some of us have suggested.

I'm sorry for getting snarky Lip. This is actually an interesting thread to get into the details of what people think are the best complimentary skills around our big 3. My initial point was more to say that I doubt few of us could have gotten that deal done to get Butler and a first, and that it is hard for me to nitpick about a few million here or there when Thibs really has had a clear vision of the type of player he wants. To me with Taj he was clearly aiming at toughness down low, which is not Patterson. And with Teague he was going for a point who could transition better on and off ball. I can see the perspective with not agreeing with those characteristics as primary needs, but what we can say is that this is now a Thibs roster. Overall I am impressed with the caliber of players he brought in, and with Taj like the short contract to really see if he's still in peak years or on the decline.

[Phenom]

I honestly don't care for Patterson over Gibson. I think Taj can rub off some on KAT defensively and that will be worth more than anything that PP or saved dollars would give the team. My only complaint is moving Ricky but Teague would have been my choice of FA guys so I will be ok with it.

[Monster]

Lets talk about the possible acquisition of Jordan Bell because it brings up a Somewhat interesting part of the CBA that could be worth considering going forward.

Personally I disagree with the idea that the Wolves could have easily gotten that pick from the Bulls. Why?

1. Its another asset to add to the trade between the Wolves and Bulls. Its also another chance for the Wolves to win that trade if the player turns out to be good. I still think the Bulls would have preferred to send that pick in a pretty good draft to another team. That same applies to if there was a completely different trade discussion later just making a deal for the pick.

2. The Warriors sent the maximum amount of money that was allowed by the league for that pick. The number rises with the cap. Lets say the Bulls were fielding offers from 5 teams which were offering 3.5 million and one of them included the Wolves. Would you want to send the pick to the team you just a deal with and to the coach you fired a couple seasons ago? Probably not if all things were equal. Some teams still seem to want to deal outside of their division and conference. Maybe the other offers were all EC teams. So its VERY possible if the Wolves wanted that pick they would have had to give up another asset to get that pick.

So 3.5 million for that pick...that's not chump change. If Taylor is serious about competing that can't be an issue (GS is spending a ton of money) but its still a healthy chunk of money. Now the good news is it would have been the max cash amount for the 2016-2017 year. This year the cash amount jumps to 5.1 million. That's the max cash a team can send or receive in any trades during the league year. That's a decent chunk of money to either send out or get. It could be a pretty nice sweetener for a team even if they aren't getting another asset. Teams may also be hesitant to do a deal receiving a big chunk of cash without getting something worthwhile in return because then they may not be able to sell their 2nd round pick/s for cash later at the end of the league year. Some teams may not want to use their cash because then they wouldn't be able to buy a 2nd round pick in the draft which is at the end of the year. This is a small thing but its something to consider as the league year continues. 5.1 million will be a lot for a 2nd round pick if team is willing to pay that.

Pretty much everyone on this forum of pretty smart basketball fans like Jordan Bell. I would have liked to get that pick and take him. However there are other players available for less money than the Wolves would have invested that have a shot of being a role player with this franchise too. Part of what makes the good teams good is the ability to not only draft players in later rounds but find guys in other ways. The Spurs are the gold standard in that regard. GS has done well there also in recent history. One of the young cheap guys this franchise added this summer needs to become a worthwhile player at some point for this franchise to take that step we all want to see. It's not just Jordan Bell or nothing.