Wolves and Wizards

[Lipoli390]

Honestly the Wolves should call up Charlotte, Orlando, Detroit, Chicago, and Washington, Cleveland, and Indiana and see what they would offer for a Towns and Russell package. 3 firsts and some pick swaps should do. If the Wolves were to keep their top 3 pick this year they could potentially have 2 high lotto picks.

Phenom - I'm close to reaching the same conclusion.

I understand the frustration here. I really, really do. But may I remind everyone here that Minnesota's best two players have played a whopping five -- FIVE -- total games together since the roster was turned over at last year's trade deadline.

Most of you already know this. I don't endorse the roster that Gersson Rosas has put together this year nor how Ryan Saunders has utilized it, but more patience is required in determining what should be done with Karl-Anthony Towns and D'Angelo Russell in the future.

Fair points, Cam.

[Phenom]

Honestly the Wolves should call up Charlotte, Orlando, Detroit, Chicago, and Washington, Cleveland, and Indiana and see what they would offer for a Towns and Russell package. 3 firsts and some pick swaps should do. If the Wolves were to keep their top 3 pick this year they could potentially have 2 high lotto picks.

Phenom - I'm close to reaching the same conclusion.

I understand the frustration here. I really, really do. But may I remind everyone here that Minnesota's best two players have played a whopping five -- FIVE -- total games together since the roster was turned over at last year's trade deadline.

Most of you already know this. I don't endorse the roster that Gersson Rosas has put together this year nor how Ryan Saunders has utilized it, but more patience is required in determining what should be done with Karl-Anthony Towns and D'Angelo Russell in the future.

Cam, I can't argue with the basis of your post. We have had virtually no chance to see Towns and Russell play together. But frankly, just getting KAT back would make a difference in our competitiveness. It doesn't much matter who plays second fiddle to him. Be it DLO, Edwards, Jmac, Beasley or Reid, we are going to win roughly the same amount of games. And the fact is it will not be good enough. Let's suppose DLO is our 2nd best player. The real problem would be that's a very weak top 2, even given KAT's offensive prowess. We are weak at the top, weak in the middle, and somewhat interesting at the bottom. And as you know we fired all of our ammunition to arrive at this destination. KAT has a good market for his services, DLO does not. If we are interested in building a future, the only patience we should have is making sure we get the best deal for KAT we can. I don't think DLO is tradeable. The reason he's not tradeable is the bigger moron theory. This theory suggests that you can always find a bigger moron than yourself to make the same mistake you did. The problem with that theory is you eventually have to get to the head moron. And we call him Gersson Rosas.

I'll play the contrarian to your point. The Wolves have the second youngest roster in the NBA. Frankly you are being impatient but are asking to be even more patient by drafting and replacing our only experience with more youth and thus push the rebuild back even more years.

Let's say 3 years from now KAT and Edwards are All Stars while McDaniels and Vando are some of the best defenders in the NBA. DLO is sharing the ball and becoming a slight plus player again. Would that team be competitive?

Here is one problem I keep running into as I have thought about that possibility as well. KAT and DLO make a ton of money. In the awesome event that these guys all hit the Wolves won't be able to even afford them. I think we all agree DLO is overpriced but the Wolves will always be in a corner with DLO because he is KATs bestie and that is a pretty expensive proposition for a team that openly states they are all in for KAT.

In some ways I look at the young pieces and it makes me feel better about trading KAT and DLO.

Edwards (as a focal point)
JMac
JMcD
Naz
Culver or Okogie
Beasley
Vando

These are mostly all guys that the Rosas regime has identified and I think most of us like the upside of them all, to a degree. If the Wolves can get a trove of picks from a team desperate for life like the ones listed above they may just be onto something. I also think there is a decent chance none of those teams will be great teams with KAT and DLO so the picks should be valuable.

Now, trading them to Dallas or San Antonio or Toronto might be a different result that would probably backfire.

[Wolvesfan21]

Honestly the Wolves should call up Charlotte, Orlando, Detroit, Chicago, and Washington, Cleveland, and Indiana and see what they would offer for a Towns and Russell package. 3 firsts and some pick swaps should do. If the Wolves were to keep their top 3 pick this year they could potentially have 2 high lotto picks.

Phenom - I'm close to reaching the same conclusion.

I understand the frustration here. I really, really do. But may I remind everyone here that Minnesota's best two players have played a whopping five -- FIVE -- total games together since the roster was turned over at last year's trade deadline.

Most of you already know this. I don't endorse the roster that Gersson Rosas has put together this year nor how Ryan Saunders has utilized it, but more patience is required in determining what should be done with Karl-Anthony Towns and D'Angelo Russell in the future.

Cam, I can't argue with the basis of your post. We have had virtually no chance to see Towns and Russell play together. But frankly, just getting KAT back would make a difference in our competitiveness. It doesn't much matter who plays second fiddle to him. Be it DLO, Edwards, Jmac, Beasley or Reid, we are going to win roughly the same amount of games. And the fact is it will not be good enough. Let's suppose DLO is our 2nd best player. The real problem would be that's a very weak top 2, even given KAT's offensive prowess. We are weak at the top, weak in the middle, and somewhat interesting at the bottom. And as you know we fired all of our ammunition to arrive at this destination. KAT has a good market for his services, DLO does not. If we are interested in building a future, the only patience we should have is making sure we get the best deal for KAT we can. I don't think DLO is tradeable. The reason he's not tradeable is the bigger moron theory. This theory suggests that you can always find a bigger moron than yourself to make the same mistake you did. The problem with that theory is you eventually have to get to the head moron. And we call him Gersson Rosas.

I'll play the contrarian to your point. The Wolves have the second youngest roster in the NBA. Frankly you are being impatient but are asking to be even more patient by drafting and replacing our only experience with more youth and thus push the rebuild back even more years.

Let's say 3 years from now KAT and Edwards are All Stars while McDaniels and Vando are some of the best defenders in the NBA. DLO is sharing the ball and becoming a slight plus player again. Would that team be competitive?

Here is one problem I keep running into as I have thought about that possibility as well. KAT and DLO make a ton of money. In the awesome event that these guys all hit the Wolves won't be able to even afford them. I think we all agree DLO is overpriced but the Wolves will always be in a corner with DLO because he is KATs bestie and that is a pretty expensive proposition for a team that openly states they are all in for KAT.

In some ways I look at the young pieces and it makes me feel better about trading KAT and DLO.

Edwards (as a focal point)
JMac
JMcD
Naz
Culver or Okogie
Beasley
Vando

These are mostly all guys that the Rosas regime has identified and I think most of us like the upside of them all, to a degree. If the Wolves can get a trove of picks from a team desperate for life like the ones listed above they may just be onto something. I also think there is a decent chance none of those teams will be great teams with KAT and DLO so the picks should be valuable.

Now, trading them to Dallas or San Antonio or Toronto might be a different result that would probably backfire.

DLO won't get another max contract unless he completely improves his game defensively and offensive efficiency. I think it's reasonable that KAT would understand this at that point and would value winning over his playing with his buddy. So either DLO improves dramatically, takes a pay cut or walks.

So I think it's safe to assume we are not hitched to DLO at that point in regards to keeping KAT.

[Lipoli390]

Some really good points by everyone in this thread. Right now, I'm where Drew is. While I'm open to considering the notion of trading KAT, I still lean decidedly against trading him at least until we reach next season's February trade deadline. Although I agree with Cool that the KAT-DLO pairing will likely fail, I think Cam is right that we haven't seen enough of KAT and DLO together to make the decision to blow it all up.

I also think WolvesFan makes a good point about the potential development of some of our young talent. I wasn't in favor of drafting Edwards and I still have doubts about him, but there's no denying he has all-star/superstar talent. McDaniels and Vanderbilt also have impressive upsides with McDaniels looking like he has all-star potential. I'll add that Naz Reid and JMac are already good and going to get better. I also remain high on Nowell. Of course, even if some or all of these players reach their potential, will it happen in a time frame that aligns with KAT's patience?

Perhaps having all this young talent in the 19-22 age range actually argues for trading KAT and DLO now to bring in more young talent in a rebuild effort. But for now, I'd like to see if we can make this work with KAT over the next 12 months.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

WolvesFan indeed makes a good point and if we're being realistic instead of playing fantasy, this is exactly what Rosas is going to do. As much as some of us might believe it should be blown up, he's simply not going to do it and invalidate basically every single move he's made to date. He might as well just resign now.

So.....we're left waiting and watching. The most likely outcome is more losing and the eventual departure of Saunders and Rosas in that order, with perhaps 18 months to 2 years in between those two events. It's at that point in time a new regime will be put in place and KAT will likely get traded since he'll want out by then.

I have very little hope Edwards will develop into a superstar, and even if he does, we're years and years away from that. We have some intriguing young pieces like Vando and McDaniels, but they aren't going to be stars. May be we can win ~ 30 games next season if everyone stays healthy (?). But I see that as the best case scenario given how cap restricted we are.

[Coolbreeze44]

I think one thing we are going to see is KAT wanting out sooner rather than later. I wouldn't be surprised if he lets Rosas know he wants out before the trade deadline. I fully expect him to campaign for getting out after this season. This is just me postulating, but it is one of the reasons I suggest we don't wait to entertain offers for him.

[Lipoli390]

WolvesFan indeed makes a good point and if we're being realistic instead of playing fantasy, this is exactly what Rosas is going to do. As much as some of us might believe it should be blown up, he's simply not going to do it and invalidate basically every single move he's made to date. He might as well just resign now.

So.....we're left waiting and watching. The most likely outcome is more losing and the eventual departure of Saunders and Rosas in that order, with perhaps 18 months to 2 years in between those two events. It's at that point in time a new regime will be put in place and KAT will likely get traded since he'll want out by then.

I have very little hope Edwards will develop into a superstar, and even if he does, we're years and years away from that. We have some intriguing young pieces like Vando and McDaniels, but they aren't going to be stars. May be we can win ~ 30 games next season if everyone stays healthy (?). But I see that as the best case scenario given how cap restricted we are.

I don't disagree with you fundamentally, Q. But I have a few quibbles.

First, I don't think Edwards needs to develop into a superstar for things to work out with KAT. I think the key is whether he develops into an all-star caliber player - something that should be expected of him. I don't think Edwards is necessarily "years and years away" from becoming an all-star caliber player. It rarely takes more than a couple years for an elite player to begin playing at an all-star level - usually by a player's 3rd season and quite often their 2nd. I've been surprised by Edward's overall skill level and basketball IQ, both of which are noticeably higher than I anticipated. Add that to the fact that Edwards already has an NBA body and it's reasonable to expect Edwards to be on the faster side of the development curve.

Second, just measured by all-star (versus star or superstar) potential, I think McDaniels has that upside in him. I think he has a longer way to go than Edwards because of his body and underdeveloped skill set.

Finally, whether KAT pushes to leave sometime next season or shortly thereafter will depend on the team's trajectory as well as how much it's winning. If it seems as if Edwards is on the road to reaching his potential, the DLO-KAT pairing is gelling, then KAT may be inclined to return for the 3rd of his remaining 4 years. I think Rosas would need to tweak the roster to make it work. If Rosas successfully tweaks the roster with some balance and complementary players before next season and we see what I suggested from Edwards and the DLO-KAT duo, then I see KAT staying as this thing starts to turn around.

To be clear, i don't expect those things to happen. But I don't think the odds are quite as remote as you suggest. The KAT we've seen so far in limited action this season was a different player than the one we've seen in his previous 5 seasons. He was defending, playing at a high energy level on both ends and showing some real toughness I haven't seen before. That bodes well for this team if he can stay healthy and the other things I mentioned happen. Unfortunately, while I think KAT will eventually remain healthy, I don't trust Rosas to make good roster moves and we don't have a head coach capable of getting the most out of the players we have. If KAT comes back and the Wolves are still terrible the last 2/3 of this season, then I think Rosas will replace Ryan before next season. Then who knows.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Lip, Unlike perhaps you, I have very little hope that Edwards will turn into a plus player. I see him heading down the same path as a DLO or LaVine. He'll be able to put the ball in the hoop, but do very little else to help a team win games. So yeah, nevermind superstar or even all-star. I think he will be far worse than either of those outcomes, even in a couple of years.

[Phenom]

Honestly the Wolves should call up Charlotte, Orlando, Detroit, Chicago, and Washington, Cleveland, and Indiana and see what they would offer for a Towns and Russell package. 3 firsts and some pick swaps should do. If the Wolves were to keep their top 3 pick this year they could potentially have 2 high lotto picks.

Phenom - I'm close to reaching the same conclusion.

I understand the frustration here. I really, really do. But may I remind everyone here that Minnesota's best two players have played a whopping five -- FIVE -- total games together since the roster was turned over at last year's trade deadline.

Most of you already know this. I don't endorse the roster that Gersson Rosas has put together this year nor how Ryan Saunders has utilized it, but more patience is required in determining what should be done with Karl-Anthony Towns and D'Angelo Russell in the future.

Cam, I can't argue with the basis of your post. We have had virtually no chance to see Towns and Russell play together. But frankly, just getting KAT back would make a difference in our competitiveness. It doesn't much matter who plays second fiddle to him. Be it DLO, Edwards, Jmac, Beasley or Reid, we are going to win roughly the same amount of games. And the fact is it will not be good enough. Let's suppose DLO is our 2nd best player. The real problem would be that's a very weak top 2, even given KAT's offensive prowess. We are weak at the top, weak in the middle, and somewhat interesting at the bottom. And as you know we fired all of our ammunition to arrive at this destination. KAT has a good market for his services, DLO does not. If we are interested in building a future, the only patience we should have is making sure we get the best deal for KAT we can. I don't think DLO is tradeable. The reason he's not tradeable is the bigger moron theory. This theory suggests that you can always find a bigger moron than yourself to make the same mistake you did. The problem with that theory is you eventually have to get to the head moron. And we call him Gersson Rosas.

I'll play the contrarian to your point. The Wolves have the second youngest roster in the NBA. Frankly you are being impatient but are asking to be even more patient by drafting and replacing our only experience with more youth and thus push the rebuild back even more years.

Let's say 3 years from now KAT and Edwards are All Stars while McDaniels and Vando are some of the best defenders in the NBA. DLO is sharing the ball and becoming a slight plus player again. Would that team be competitive?

Here is one problem I keep running into as I have thought about that possibility as well. KAT and DLO make a ton of money. In the awesome event that these guys all hit the Wolves won't be able to even afford them. I think we all agree DLO is overpriced but the Wolves will always be in a corner with DLO because he is KATs bestie and that is a pretty expensive proposition for a team that openly states they are all in for KAT.

In some ways I look at the young pieces and it makes me feel better about trading KAT and DLO.

Edwards (as a focal point)
JMac
JMcD
Naz
Culver or Okogie
Beasley
Vando

These are mostly all guys that the Rosas regime has identified and I think most of us like the upside of them all, to a degree. If the Wolves can get a trove of picks from a team desperate for life like the ones listed above they may just be onto something. I also think there is a decent chance none of those teams will be great teams with KAT and DLO so the picks should be valuable.

Now, trading them to Dallas or San Antonio or Toronto might be a different result that would probably backfire.

DLO won't get another max contract unless he completely improves his game defensively and offensive efficiency. I think it's reasonable that KAT would understand this at that point and would value winning over his playing with his buddy. So either DLO improves dramatically, takes a pay cut or walks.

So I think it's safe to assume we are not hitched to DLO at that point in regards to keeping KAT.

I hope you are right but this has shades of the KG hey days minus the string of playoff appearances. KGs Boyz got paid. If this doesn't work, money will be the only thing that would keep them here and not plotting their next destination. At least now the team has leverage to get a good return.

[MikkeMan]

Lip, Unlike perhaps you, I have very little hope that Edwards will turn into a plus player. I see him heading down the same path as a DLO or LaVine. He'll be able to put the ball in the hoop, but do very little else to help a team win games. So yeah, nevermind superstar or even all-star. I think he will be far worse than either of those outcomes, even in a couple of years.

Just by looking those do shit stats, it looks like Lavine would be doing already something else besides scoring. He is averaging 5.3 rebounds, 5.2 assists, 1.3 steals and 0.6 blocks. All those numbers are pretty close to career per 36 minutes numbers of shooting guards like Manu or Kobe. But still even though he has shown a lot of improvement in all statistical areas except turnovers and he is even scoring super effectively (TS over 65%), his on off numbers remain really poor. I guess there hasn't ever be another that effecient 25pts scorer with as bad on off numbers.