Game Report - Wolves v. Celtics

[Lipoli390]

Lip this is Saric's 3rd season in the league. Not sure how he was a bad 3 point shooter in his 2nd season shooting 39%. :) Looking at his euroleague stats he wasn't really shooting the 3 well till his last season in Europe. That was about the age Bjelica started taking and making 3's internationally but didn't start making them at the percentage Saric did until the next year. He was not known as a shooter before that remember it was his size with his play making/passing that was so intruiging. Meanwhile Saric was winning MVP of Adriatic league and back to back young player awards. As for his shooting Saric rookie year was his worst in the NBA from the FT line at 78% then the next year it jumped to 86% and now it's basically a shocker when he misses. I actually have a lot of confidence he is going to be able to make 3's at this level. That one pass he caught inside the 3 point line and he ran back behind the 3 point line to take the 3 probably wasn't the right play he should have taken a couple dribbles in and taken a midrange 2 or gone tot he basket BUT it was great to see a guy that gets the importance of actually getting those 3's up!

Also after reading that note that Lowe had about his offensive rebounding I watched for that And Saric is really good at crashing the boards and he does it in a way that doesn't take himself out of plays. He seems to know the situation behind him and whether or not he has a chance to get the ball without his team getting burned on the other end. Then of course if he doesn't get the ball he actually hustles back to the other end of the floor.

Lol. Monster -- Yes, Saric shot 39% from beyond the arc in his second season. What I meant to say was that Saric has shot well from beyond the arc in only one of his three seasons so far - his second season. In his first season he shot 31% from the three and so far this third season he's shooting under 30%. I'm not ready to proclaim him a poor three-point shooter. But he has a long way to go before we can consider him a good three-point shooter. We need to see whether that one season was what we can expect going forward or just a one-season anomoly. I admire your confidence in him, but his three-point shooting thus far hasn't caught up with your level of confidence. So far this season, at under 30%, he's bad. I like that he's not afraid to take the three, but not for long if he keeps shooting at his current clip. Don't get me wrong. I certainly like other aspects of his game -- the hustle, the IQ, the nose for the ball, and the rebounding. All those things make him an asset to the team as part of the rotation. But to be the player that some of us were hoping we were getting in this deal, he has to be a good three-point shooter -- 37% if not 39%. That's the player the Sixers thought they were getting when they drafted him and that's the player I hope he becomes. But he's clearly not there yet.

[Lipoli390]

I think I'm more upset at KAT's individual performance than I am the loss. He needs to start imposing his will on games like this and he was mediocre at best. If he's such good buds with Al Horford, he should request a master class this offseason in the nuances of how to play Center in the modern game. Here is a sample class schedule:

Day 1 - Screen and Roll 101: How to set a proper pick
Day 2 - Screen and Roll 201: How to set an illegal ball screen without getting caught
Day 3 - Screen and Roll 301: Knowing when to roll vs. pop
Day 4 - Yoga and meditation practice.
Day 5 - Defense 111: The defensive stance and staying square
Day 6 - Defense 211: Principles of Verticality
Day 7 - Defense 311: How to close out on a shooter without leaving your feet

etc.

You get the picture....other courses of study would be Player/Referee Relations: How to Command Respect (hint: don't be a drama queen); Rebounding: When to Crash the Offensive glass and When not to; Authenticity: How to avoid the Cliche Trap.

Q - You have accurately identified all of KAT's weaknesses, although I'm not worried much about him crashing the offensive glass too often since his aggressiveness on the offensive glass can be as much a positive as a negative. And I'm not at all worried about his affinity for cliches; it doesn't impact his game and it will eventually wane as his matures.

But while I agree with you list of weaknesses, I just don't see KAT as the main problem last night. He scored 20 points, including going 6-6 from the line. He also had 9 rebounds. And it's not like Horford dominated last night - scoring 15 points and pulling down a whopping 3 rebounds. Boston's other center, Barnes, had 0 points and 4 boards. The guys who really hurt the Wolves last night were Hayward and Irving, neither of whom was KAT's defensive responsibility. The real driver behind last night's loss was the disparity in three-point shooting - the three pointers taken and made by Boston players KAT wasn't guarding compared to the lack of three-point shooting from the Wolves perimeter players - far fewer attempts and a poorer percentage made.

If you're looking to assess blame on any particular player, I suggest Jeff Teague. He dominated the ball last night among the starters, hit only 3 of his 10 shots and took only 2 three-pointers. It's unfair to expect Towns to dominate offensively when he doesn't control the ball, especially when the guy who controls the ball, the PG, dribbles incessantly looking for his own shot. I counted at least four times last night when Teague and Rose missed opportunities to get the ball to KAT for what would have been wide open threes, opting instead for contested two-point attempts. And I counted a number of times when Teague failed to get Towns the ball early in the shot clock when Towns had good post position - something that happens repeatedly every single game.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I think I'm more upset at KAT's individual performance than I am the loss. He needs to start imposing his will on games like this and he was mediocre at best. If he's such good buds with Al Horford, he should request a master class this offseason in the nuances of how to play Center in the modern game. Here is a sample class schedule:

Day 1 - Screen and Roll 101: How to set a proper pick
Day 2 - Screen and Roll 201: How to set an illegal ball screen without getting caught
Day 3 - Screen and Roll 301: Knowing when to roll vs. pop
Day 4 - Yoga and meditation practice.
Day 5 - Defense 111: The defensive stance and staying square
Day 6 - Defense 211: Principles of Verticality
Day 7 - Defense 311: How to close out on a shooter without leaving your feet

etc.

You get the picture....other courses of study would be Player/Referee Relations: How to Command Respect (hint: don't be a drama queen); Rebounding: When to Crash the Offensive glass and When not to; Authenticity: How to avoid the Cliche Trap.

Q - You have accurately identified all of KAT's weaknesses, although I'm not worried much about him crashing the offensive glass too often since his aggressiveness on the offensive glass can be as much a positive as a negative. And I'm not at all worried about his affinity for cliches; it doesn't impact his game and it will eventually wane as his matures.

But while I agree with you list of weaknesses, I just don't see KAT as the main problem last night. He scored 20 points, including going 6-6 from the line. He also had 9 rebounds. And it's not like Horford dominated last night - scoring 15 points and pulling down a whopping 3 rebounds. Boston's other center, Barnes, had 0 points and 4 boards. The guys who really hurt the Wolves last night were Hayward and Irving, neither of whom was KAT's defensive responsibility. The real driver behind last night's loss was the disparity in three-point shooting - the three pointers taken and made by Boston players KAT wasn't guarding compared to the lack of three-point shooting from the Wolves perimeter players - far fewer attempts and a poorer percentage made.

If you're looking to assess blame on any particular player, I suggest Jeff Teague. He dominated the ball last night among the starters, hit only 3 of his 10 shots and took only 2 three-pointers. It's unfair to expect Towns to dominate offensively when he doesn't control the ball, especially when the guy who controls the ball, the PG, dribbles incessantly looking for his own shot. I counted at least four times last night when Teague and Rose missed opportunities to get the ball to KAT for what would have been wide open threes, opting instead for contested two-point attempts. And I counted a number of times when Teague failed to get Towns the ball early in the shot clock when Towns had good post position - something that happens repeatedly every single game.

There's just more to basketball than points and rebounds. Is there ever going to be a day where you hold KAT accountable for doing more than that to beat a good team or is he just good once he hits his 20/10? The little things can make a big impact and shouldn't just be shrugged off because points and rebounds.

[Lipoli390]

I think I'm more upset at KAT's individual performance than I am the loss. He needs to start imposing his will on games like this and he was mediocre at best. If he's such good buds with Al Horford, he should request a master class this offseason in the nuances of how to play Center in the modern game. Here is a sample class schedule:

Day 1 - Screen and Roll 101: How to set a proper pick
Day 2 - Screen and Roll 201: How to set an illegal ball screen without getting caught
Day 3 - Screen and Roll 301: Knowing when to roll vs. pop
Day 4 - Yoga and meditation practice.
Day 5 - Defense 111: The defensive stance and staying square
Day 6 - Defense 211: Principles of Verticality
Day 7 - Defense 311: How to close out on a shooter without leaving your feet

etc.

You get the picture....other courses of study would be Player/Referee Relations: How to Command Respect (hint: don't be a drama queen); Rebounding: When to Crash the Offensive glass and When not to; Authenticity: How to avoid the Cliche Trap.

Q - You have accurately identified all of KAT's weaknesses, although I'm not worried much about him crashing the offensive glass too often since his aggressiveness on the offensive glass can be as much a positive as a negative. And I'm not at all worried about his affinity for cliches; it doesn't impact his game and it will eventually wane as his matures.

But while I agree with you list of weaknesses, I just don't see KAT as the main problem last night. He scored 20 points, including going 6-6 from the line. He also had 9 rebounds. And it's not like Horford dominated last night - scoring 15 points and pulling down a whopping 3 rebounds. Boston's other center, Barnes, had 0 points and 4 boards. The guys who really hurt the Wolves last night were Hayward and Irving, neither of whom was KAT's defensive responsibility. The real driver behind last night's loss was the disparity in three-point shooting - the three pointers taken and made by Boston players KAT wasn't guarding compared to the lack of three-point shooting from the Wolves perimeter players - far fewer attempts and a poorer percentage made.

If you're looking to assess blame on any particular player, I suggest Jeff Teague. He dominated the ball last night among the starters, hit only 3 of his 10 shots and took only 2 three-pointers. It's unfair to expect Towns to dominate offensively when he doesn't control the ball, especially when the guy who controls the ball, the PG, dribbles incessantly looking for his own shot. I counted at least four times last night when Teague and Rose missed opportunities to get the ball to KAT for what would have been wide open threes, opting instead for contested two-point attempts. And I counted a number of times when Teague failed to get Towns the ball early in the shot clock when Towns had good post position - something that happens repeatedly every single game.

There's just more to basketball than points and rebounds. Is there ever going to be a day where you hold KAT accountable for doing more than that to beat a good team or is he just good once he hits his 20/10? The little things can make a big impact and shouldn't just be shrugged off because points and rebounds.

Oh come on Kahns. KAT has done more than 20/10 a lot of times to make a significant positive impact on the outcome of games. You'll find games with 30+ points, you'll find games with 20+ rebounds and you'll find games with 3+ blocks. Of course I wish he had done more last night, but his performance last night bothered me a lot less than the performance of some others. And unless Thibodeau decides to use him as our PG or Point Forward, he's going to have to depend on others getting him the ball to do more on the offensive end.

By the way, in the end it is about points. You do know that, right? The team that scores more points than the other wins the game. KAT scored 20 and the guy he was guarding scored 15. Offensive rebounds facilitate points for your team while defensive rebounds take scoring opportunities away from your opponent. Red Auerbach used to say "get me the ball." He meant, get me rebounds. In an interview, Red explained the simplicity of the game - score more points and get more rebounds so I have more chances to get more points. KAT had 9 rebounds while his opposing center had 3. Hayward and Tatum each had 9 rebounds. Speaking of those little things, who was boxing them out? Who was fighting through screens and guarding the arc when Hayward and Morris were raining threes.

My game report didn't rave about KAT's performance. He clearly didn't dominate. He didn't put the team on his shoulders and will them to victory. I get that. I simply disagree with singling KAT out for last night's loss. The numbers do matter and they don't support that position. Yes, I understand there are little things that make a difference but don't show up in box scores. I saw a lot of those little things last night - like PGs overdribbling and failing to get the ball to KAT when he was wide open behind the arc or when he had good post position early in a possession. Or how about one of those PGs, Teague, passing up open three-point looks he had, choosing instead to dribble into traffic for a failed two-point attempt? Meanwhile, Hayward, Smart and Morris were having their way from behind the arc.

Q's list of KAT's weaknesses seems accurate to me. It's not up to me to "hold KAT accountable" for improvement in those areas. It's up to KAT to hold himself accountable for improving in those areas. So far this season, he's improved substantially on the defensive and and is making better decisions on both ends of the court. He's clearly far from a finished product. We can all hold him accountable for developing over time in all the areas Q has identified. The good news is that he produces at a high level every single game; in fact, he's the only player on the roster other than Rose and RoCo who does. I'll be concerned if KAT stops producing or stops improving. So far this season, he's producing and improving.

Now I'll just hold myself accountable for going getting to sleep. :)

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

It's not that KAT was the main problem against the Celtics. It's that as our most talented player, he is not able to take over and heavily impact games against stronger opponents.

He's getting to a phase in his career now where he needs to start imposing his will more against good teams. Too often he's "meh" when playing veteran Centers on good teams like Gasol and Horford. And the thing that just stands out to me time and again is how these guys are vastly more efficient in the way they position themselves on the floor and the decisions they make. He'll almost always get his 20 & 10, but then you see the half-hearted screens, the poor defensive decisions, the way-too-late offensive rebound attempt that then put our defense on its heels in transition. When will these things be learned?

[Lipoli390]

It's not that KAT was the main problem against the Celtics. It's that as our most talented player, he is not able to take over and heavily impact games against stronger opponents.

He's getting to a phase in his career now where he needs to start imposing his will more against good teams. Too often he's "meh" when playing veteran Centers on good teams like Gasol and Horford. And the thing that just stands out to me time and again is how these guys are vastly more efficient in the way they position themselves on the floor and the decisions they make. He'll almost always get his 20 & 10, but then you see the half-hearted screens, the poor defensive decisions, the way-too-late offensive rebound attempt that then put our defense on its heels in transition. When will these things be learned?

Q - I understand and share your frustration with KAT. But a few things to keep in mind.

1. KAT has imposed his will against good teams this season. He had 28 highly efficient points, 16 boards, 4 assists, 2 blocks and 2 steals in a win against the Jazz and their center Gobert. He had 25 highly efficient points, 16 boards, 3 assists, 2 blocks in a win over Anthony Davis and his Pelicans. Obviously, he's had other big statistical games in wins against lesser teams and losses to good teams. If you could swap one Wolves player for one Celtics player and replay Saturday night's game, who would it be? There's no way I'd swap KAT for Horford. That would make no sense as the outcome of the game would have probably been worse for the Wolves. I'd swap Teague for Kyrie or Wiggins for Hayward or Morris for Gibson.

2. Half-hearted screens, poor defensive decisions and late offensive rebound attempts are part of the story. As for the screens, this team is pretty bad overall at setting screens. Overall, KAT has definitely improved his defensive decision-making this season. I think you're focusing way too much on his late offensive rebound attempts. He crashes the offensive boards relentlessly. That's a good thing even thought he's sometimes late on those attempts. Overall, I think you're too focused on the trees and missing the forest. This team doesn't screen very well. Yet, I've seen KAT set some nice screens. He still needs to improve in all the areas you've identified, but the truth is that he is improving in those areas and he is producing consistently at a high level. Some better picks or defensive decision-making by KAT wouldn't have changed the outcome of the Boston game. 30 points and 12 rebounds from KAT would have changed the outcome. That's what I wanted to see from him Saturday.

3. To the extent certain veteran centers on good teams are more efficient than KAT in how they position themselves on the, I guess that's part of what goes along with being veterans.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Lip, You bring up good points, but even if you do look at the "forest", his cumulative stats this season are (so far) at career lows in PER, WS/48, and BPM. So he's not even doing as well as he has in the past in the box score stuff. Then add the nuances I mention above and I'm just not very happy with his progress. When I saw how he produced as a rookie, I thought that by now he'd be a dominant force.

I think the thing that really gets me is Jokic on Denver. That guy is about the same age with similar experience to KAT and he just keeps getting better and better. I would absolutely consider trading KAT for Jokic. The other guy that seemingly impacts the game more is Nurkic in Portland. Again, similar age and experience levels. I wouldn't trade KAT straight up for Nurkic, but it annoys me to no end to see these young guys keep getting better and helping their teams to the top of the Western Conference while KAT has not made similar progress.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I get the Jokic comparison...

I don't get the Nurkic stuff. If we're looking for impact by a big man... look East. Check out Vucevic in Orlando...

Player A: 20.6 ppg / 12.0 reb / 2.3 apg / 0.8 stl / 1.6 blk / 48.7% fg / 39.6% 3fg / 89.4% ft / 1.2 OBPM / 1.5 DBPM / 20.6 PER

Player B: 21.0 ppg / 11.3 reb / 3.8 apg / 1.0 stl / 1.1 blk / 55.3% fg / 40.9% 3fg / 84.3% ft / 4.5 OBPM / 3.1 DBPM / 27.2 PER

The boxscore stats are pretty close. But look at those advanced stats... I don't know how those are comprised... and I don't even know how relevant they are... but they do seem to suggest Q is onto something with the "difference-making" stuff.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I get the Jokic comparison...

I don't get the Nurkic stuff. If we're looking for impact by a big man... look East. Check out Vucevic in Orlando...

Player A: 20.6 ppg / 12.0 reb / 2.3 apg / 0.8 stl / 1.6 blk / 48.7% fg / 39.6% 3fg / 89.4% ft / 1.2 OBPM / 1.5 DBPM / 20.6 PER

Player B: 21.0 ppg / 11.3 reb / 3.8 apg / 1.0 stl / 1.1 blk / 55.3% fg / 40.9% 3fg / 84.3% ft / 4.5 OBPM / 3.1 DBPM / 27.2 PER

The boxscore stats are pretty close. But look at those advanced stats... I don't know how those are comprised... and I don't even know how relevant they are... but they do seem to suggest Q is onto something with the "difference-making" stuff.

Go look at Nurkic's PER and OBPM/DBPM versus KAT and you'll know why I mentioned him.

As for Vusevic, he's come out of no where and has made a huge leap after years of solid-and-steady play. Perhaps coaching has had something to do with it? I believe Steve Clifford replaced Frank Vogel. It's the rest of Orlando's roster that leaves a lot to be desired.

I didn't use him as a comparison point to KAT because he is a number of years older and with more experience, but yeah, he is outplaying KAT along with a number of other Centers this season.

KAT's been solid, but he's not giving us the type of play we need from the cornerstone of the franchise.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I get the Jokic comparison...

I don't get the Nurkic stuff. If we're looking for impact by a big man... look East. Check out Vucevic in Orlando...

Player A: 20.6 ppg / 12.0 reb / 2.3 apg / 0.8 stl / 1.6 blk / 48.7% fg / 39.6% 3fg / 89.4% ft / 1.2 OBPM / 1.5 DBPM / 20.6 PER

Player B: 21.0 ppg / 11.3 reb / 3.8 apg / 1.0 stl / 1.1 blk / 55.3% fg / 40.9% 3fg / 84.3% ft / 4.5 OBPM / 3.1 DBPM / 27.2 PER

The boxscore stats are pretty close. But look at those advanced stats... I don't know how those are comprised... and I don't even know how relevant they are... but they do seem to suggest Q is onto something with the "difference-making" stuff.

Go look at Nurkic's PER and OBPM/DBPM versus KAT and you'll know why I mentioned him.

As for Vusevic, he's come out of no where and has made a huge leap after years of solid-and-steady play. Perhaps coaching has had something to do with it? I believe Steve Clifford replaced Frank Vogel. It's the rest of Orlando's roster that leaves a lot to be desired.

I didn't use him as a comparison point to KAT because he is a number of years older and with more experience, but yeah, he is outplaying KAT along with a number of other Centers this season.

KAT's been solid, but he's not giving us the type of play we need from the cornerstone of the franchise.

And I believe Vucevic is in a contract year... so his sudden ascent seems even more suspect.

As for Nurkic... I see he's only playing 26 mpg. Until he can make it even one season averaging 27 mpg... I can't think of him as one of the best bigs in the game.