Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Oh boy here we go. Yes, there is nothing new here that we haven't already heard. But can we be smart as fans for once? I see all this fervor for staying status quo, because somehow this is all going to magically work out in the Wolves favor. Jimmy is going to have a great season. He and the young guys are going to all of a sudden mesh together. It will allow us to make a run at the number 3 spot in the West. After the season is over, Jimmy is going to be so happy he resigns here and helps recruit Kyrie to Minneapolis. Are we insane?

Here is what is 10 times more likely. Jimmy plays less than 65 games with an assortment of injuries including more problems with his knee. The discord between Jimmy and KAT/Wig grows deeper. The internal problems complicate our ability to compete in the West and we end up in another battle for the 8th spot. We try to move Jimmy at the deadline only to find out his value is diminished because he is now considered damaged goods. We end up keeping him or making a bad deal because we have no leverage. If we keep him, he can't wait to get out of here after the season and we end up getting nothing but cap space. Basically we blow yet another opportunity to set ourselves up for a promising future because for some reason we just HAD to hang on to Jimmy for one more run. Next July, Cool reminds everyone about this thread and the rest of the board comes down with a severe case of memory loss.

Waiting for the pitchforks.......

I agree with you completely, Cool!

I've been calling for the Wolves to trade Butler since late May, well before the Butler dissatisfaction story broke. My point has always been that, even if Jimmy's loves it here, his age, injury propensity and impending free agency make him a less than optimal fit for this team.

But it's clear the Wolves will not trade Jimmy this summer. Nor will Taylor replace Thibodeau. So we had better hope that our rookies are surprisingly good, that Thibodeau shows more growth and flexibility than we've seen from him so far, and that Jimmy starts acting like a leader builds chemistry with his teammates and stays healthy enough to play at least 75 games. Then we still have to hope that Jimmy decides to stay here I lieu of other free agent opportunities he may have.

I'm not saying you guys are wrong and I see your point but even if Jimmy walks this offseason for nothing the wolves can create 52 mil in cap space if Teague opts out. Another 16 mil if we trade gorgui with a pick. Allowing another max guy to come in or 2 above average players.

If butler leaves it will suck but not all is lost

I don't understand the doom and gloom with Jimmy. All possible outcomes are fine and far from franchise ending. If he leaves for nothing, so what? That gets us out of cap hell and we can begin building around Towns and Wiggins. If he stays, we keep a top 15 player in the league which is always a good thing. Rather than having a whole team of young prospects it's just gonna be better to have the cap space to spend it on actually good players around Towns and Wiggins.

20 million for Zach. Dunn is gonna want at least 10 and probably will get Dieng money from a bad team. Who knows what Lauri is gonna get? And none of them are that third guy next to Towns and Wiggins. Lauri/Towns is the worst defensive frontcourt in the NBA. Dunn's game just isn't the kind of tight ball handling and good shooting you want in a 2018 lead guard. Zach doesn't have the brains for the game. He's a very talented guy and he can shoot, but he doesn't have the IQ to take the next step.

Who's to say Jimmy leaves and that doesn't open up a spot for a Kemba Walker or another good player who's a good fit with this team? Losing Jimmy for nothing is not the end of the world and if it happens the flexibility of that cap space is just gonna be better than continuing to bank on prospects who may or may not hit and overpay a lot of them and have a mediocre team. Dunn/Zach/Wiggins/Lauri/Towns is the worst defensive team in the NBA and there is no championship hope for a team that is a complete matador. There's not a GM in the league trading Jimmy in the draft after 1 year where you get the 8 seed with him missing even more games than he usually does. That's just an arm chair GM move only fan boards would suggest so it's not a fair thing to expect Thibs or any GM to have made that move.

The Jimmy trade we made was the right trade and not trading him to potentially keep him is the right move. We either get to keep a top 15 player at the end of the day which is better than any of those prospects will ever be, or he leaves for nothing and we gain the flexibility needed to actually build a good team around Towns and Wiggins rather than just keep waiting for another year on prospects every year and then overpaying most of them because they are decent but not great.

In the 30 year history of the franchise, what major free agent have we ever signed? Sprewell and Cassell were via trade. Was Teague the biggest free agent to come here? I can't remember anyone else. Depending on this franchise to build a contender through free agency is a reach at best. I'm just asking you guys to take a glass half empty look at what's going on here. Things don't tend to end up working in our favor.

A couple options that either haven't been discussed or haven't been discussed much is trading Bulter after the season. yep sign and trade may be a possibility. Sure lot of teams will have cap space but not every team. Jimmy could also do the CP3 and opt in to his final year and facilitate a trade that way. Will it happen? probably not but its also possible the Wolves could get something for him after the season. Obviously neither ot these are going to bring back a significant haul but the Clippers got some nice enough pieces back for deal CP3 plus got off some bad money in Jamal.

Everyone has their opinions and predictions but I just hope people respect the other side when presented. I get where Cool and Lip are coming from their case is rational and well stated. I don't even really disagree with their basica premise. I just tend to think the Gamble that jimmy works out is worth the return we will get back for him.

Also why is it so crazy to assume some good player might want to come here. Wasn't the Wolves on Kyrie's list a few months ago? Wasn't that because of the Butler guy? Sure he could leave but I bet you that even with some of his faults some players are gonna find playing with Towns appealing also.

Personally I think the return for Butler now isn't not going to be what some people in favor of dealing him are expecting. His age injury history plus his next contract and being a FA after this year is going to keep the price down somewhat. That's my speculation.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:In the 30 year history of the franchise, what major free agent have we ever signed? Sprewell and Cassell were via trade. Was Teague the biggest free agent to come here? I can't remember anyone else. Depending on this franchise to build a contender through free agency is a reach at best. I'm just asking you guys to take a glass half empty look at what's going on here. Things don't tend to end up working in our favor.

If Towns/Wiggins aren't good enough to attract a free agent here then we aren't winning a title with them and a top pick from this year anyway. They'll either be good enough and the talent will come or they won't and we were never getting there anyway. I don't see a scenario where they are good enough to be 2 of the top 3 players on a contender and then just can't get help because they play in MN.

Firstly I'm going to take all these 'rumours' with a grain of salt. Reminds me of the years of Rubio to New York rumours we had to endure.

But if there is any truth to this you trade Butler as soon as possible and by the trade deadline at the absolute latest. Yes if he walks we get a consolation prize in cap space, but we need to get more than that. At least a promsing young player and future 1st round pick.

The problem is that Thibs is so infatuated with Jimmy that he will do everything he can to resign him until the point where it may be too late to get any return if he decides to sign elsewhere.

KiwiMatt wrote:Firstly I'm going to take all these 'rumours' with a grain of salt. Reminds me of the years of Rubio to New York rumours we had to endure.

But if there is any truth to this you trade Butler as soon as possible and by the trade deadline at the absolute latest. Yes if he walks we get a consolation prize in cap space, but we need to get more than that. At least a promsing young player and future 1st round pick.

The problem is that Thibs is so infatuated with Jimmy that he will do everything he can to resign him until the point where it may be too late to get any return if he decides to sign elsewhere.

Trading away Jimmy is asking Thibs to hang himself. We miss the playoffs and Thibs gets fired if it happens so how is it fair to put that on Thibs as something he needs to do? You're telling a guy to get himself fired for the perceived betterment of a franchise he would no longer be a part of. How many of you are interested in throwing away your jobs to make the right move for your company?

khans2k5 wrote:

KiwiMatt wrote:Firstly I'm going to take all these 'rumours' with a grain of salt. Reminds me of the years of Rubio to New York rumours we had to endure.

But if there is any truth to this you trade Butler as soon as possible and by the trade deadline at the absolute latest. Yes if he walks we get a consolation prize in cap space, but we need to get more than that. At least a promsing young player and future 1st round pick.

The problem is that Thibs is so infatuated with Jimmy that he will do everything he can to resign him until the point where it may be too late to get any return if he decides to sign elsewhere.

Trading away Jimmy is asking Thibs to hang himself. We miss the playoffs and Thibs gets fired if it happens so how is it fair to put that on Thibs as something he needs to do? You're telling a guy to get himself fired for the perceived betterment of a franchise he would no longer be a part of. How many of you are interested in throwing away your jobs to make the right move for your company?

Khans, I agree with you that thibs will never trade jimmy because it sets himself up to be fired soon after. And thibs is not sacrificing his job security for the future of the team.

On that note. I will add that I see thibs being fired after next season as a sure thing except for 1 possible outcome that might only save his job.

We make the playoffs as a lowseed and get bested in the first round. Thibs fired.

We miss the playoffs after coming close to making it ala denver last season. Thibs fired.

We have a season of dissaray where infighting and/or injuries happen. Thibs fired.

We make it as a top 4 seed. Got to the 2nd round. We started strong and jimmy, towns and wig figured it out together. A big kumbaya moment happen and we became a powerhouse team. Thibs MIGHT not get fired then and be allowed his 4th and last season by glen. But he alao he might get fired regardless.

In talking about thibs job security only. Odds are 90% that he gets canned after next season. His only chance is jimmy staying and that kumbaya moment happening and we became a powerhouse team. Otherwise, he is toast. Thibs is a lame duck coach and gm now. If we dont start hot next season, he is in serious trouble. He might even lose the team as they know he is not going to last.

Sadly, i cant see another team giving thibs a head coaching gig after his stay here and certainly not a president/gm position. He is looking at a assistant coach job as his future. That is why he will never trade jimmy. He sees him as his only chance of saving his job and as an ally in the locker room.

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:In the 30 year history of the franchise, what major free agent have we ever signed? Sprewell and Cassell were via trade. Was Teague the biggest free agent to come here? I can't remember anyone else. Depending on this franchise to build a contender through free agency is a reach at best. I'm just asking you guys to take a glass half empty look at what's going on here. Things don't tend to end up working in our favor.

If Towns/Wiggins aren't good enough to attract a free agent here then we aren't winning a title with them and a top pick from this year anyway. They'll either be good enough and the talent will come or they won't and we were never getting there anyway. I don't see a scenario where they are good enough to be 2 of the top 3 players on a contender and then just can't get help because they play in MN.

Good point, Kahns. I have two thoughts in response. First, it's possible (perhaps likely) that Towns and Wiggins at age 22/23 aren't far enough along on their developmental curve to attract a top free agent. The real question is whether they can attract that sort of free agent 2 or 3 years from now when KAT and Andrew are 25 and just entering their prime. One of the concerns some of us have with the Butler trade is the 6-year age gap between him and our two core young talents. Second, my goal in trading Butler this summer would be to get a high lottery pick this year or next precisely because I'm not yet convinced that we have the talent we need in KAT and Wiggins. It's a bit disconcerting that we barely beat out the Nuggets for the 8th seed after adding Butler, Gibson and Teague even though the Nuggets played most of the season without Millsap. If nothing else, it tells us that Butler plus our two young guys clearly isn't enough right now. The problem is that Butler's contract isn't long enough for us to find out if that trio will ever become a contender when KAT and Towns reach their mid-20s. If we trading Butler draft night would have landed us Doncic or Jaren Jackson, we might have gotten that 3rd elite talent closer in age to Towns and Wiggins.

Having said all that, Butler is a bird in the hand for next season and things could go well for the Wolves to the point where Jimmy re-signs and the Wolves have a nice 3-4 year run. This is an issue that lends itself to different legitimate opinions.

khans2k5 wrote:

KiwiMatt wrote:Firstly I'm going to take all these 'rumours' with a grain of salt. Reminds me of the years of Rubio to New York rumours we had to endure.

But if there is any truth to this you trade Butler as soon as possible and by the trade deadline at the absolute latest. Yes if he walks we get a consolation prize in cap space, but we need to get more than that. At least a promsing young player and future 1st round pick.

The problem is that Thibs is so infatuated with Jimmy that he will do everything he can to resign him until the point where it may be too late to get any return if he decides to sign elsewhere.

Trading away Jimmy is asking Thibs to hang himself. We miss the playoffs and Thibs gets fired if it happens so how is it fair to put that on Thibs as something he needs to do? You're telling a guy to get himself fired for the perceived betterment of a franchise he would no longer be a part of. How many of you are interested in throwing away your jobs to make the right move for your company?

You're right that Thibs wouldn't trade Jimmy unless ordered to do so by Taylor. Would it be fair to Thibs if Taylor ordered him to trade Jimmy? No, I don't think do. If Taylor isn't prepared to fire Thibodeau now, then he shouldn't require him to make such a monumental trade that would likely be a step back calculated to produce two + steps forward down the road.