Minnesota Sports Forum

I think I predicted 35 wins.

I'm feeling pretty good about that right now.

Q12543 wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

Q12543 wrote:I think the playoffs are a pipe dream at this point. We just don't have the horses. I know a couple folks here feel we have the talent to be in the playoffs, but when you really look objectively at our roster versus other teams in the West, we just don't. There is KAT and a bunch of average-to-mediocre starters and the same thing off the bench.

I have mused about this before, but I'd like to ask it here: Who is our second best player?

I think it's clearly Robert Covington if you consider both offensive and defensive sides. Based on RPM and onn/off numbers RoCo is closer to KAT than anyone else is to him. Taj is clear 3rd best player.

Others might say Rose because he can create his own shot. One reason guys like RoCo and Taj are pretty efficient is because they aren't the ones having to facilitate and create shots, yet Rose does so quite efficiently. Now his defense is atrocious, which is the only reason I don't put him clearly ahead of RoCo or Taj.

But the fact we are even having this debate among three roles players (and I do see Rose as a role player in that he's a classic 6th man no-defense scorer) demonstrates my larger point. We simply don't have the upper level talent to compete in the West. We are very similar to the Pelicans.

I think we should not ne even close to Pelicans in terms of top level offensive talent. Both Holiday and Randle are better than any of our secondary options. One could argue that even Mirotic is better than any of our options.

Mikkeman wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

Q12543 wrote:I think the playoffs are a pipe dream at this point. We just don't have the horses. I know a couple folks here feel we have the talent to be in the playoffs, but when you really look objectively at our roster versus other teams in the West, we just don't. There is KAT and a bunch of average-to-mediocre starters and the same thing off the bench.

I have mused about this before, but I'd like to ask it here: Who is our second best player?

I think it's clearly Robert Covington if you consider both offensive and defensive sides. Based on RPM and onn/off numbers RoCo is closer to KAT than anyone else is to him. Taj is clear 3rd best player.

Others might say Rose because he can create his own shot. One reason guys like RoCo and Taj are pretty efficient is because they aren't the ones having to facilitate and create shots, yet Rose does so quite efficiently. Now his defense is atrocious, which is the only reason I don't put him clearly ahead of RoCo or Taj.

But the fact we are even having this debate among three roles players (and I do see Rose as a role player in that he's a classic 6th man no-defense scorer) demonstrates my larger point. We simply don't have the upper level talent to compete in the West. We are very similar to the Pelicans.

I think we should not ne even close to Pelicans in terms of top level offensive talent. Both Holiday and Randle are better than any of our secondary options. One could argue that even Mirotic is better than any of our options.

I agree that if the Pelicans could ever get healthy they could be a pretty good squad. AD is out for a few weeks now. Can they weather that and maybe even get on track? We will see. Injuries (and any other moves teams make) are gonna be a big part of this race both for the Wolves and the other teams.

monsterpile wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

Q12543 wrote:I think the playoffs are a pipe dream at this point. We just don't have the horses. I know a couple folks here feel we have the talent to be in the playoffs, but when you really look objectively at our roster versus other teams in the West, we just don't. There is KAT and a bunch of average-to-mediocre starters and the same thing off the bench.

I have mused about this before, but I'd like to ask it here: Who is our second best player?

I think it's clearly Robert Covington if you consider both offensive and defensive sides. Based on RPM and onn/off numbers RoCo is closer to KAT than anyone else is to him. Taj is clear 3rd best player.

Others might say Rose because he can create his own shot. One reason guys like RoCo and Taj are pretty efficient is because they aren't the ones having to facilitate and create shots, yet Rose does so quite efficiently. Now his defense is atrocious, which is the only reason I don't put him clearly ahead of RoCo or Taj.

But the fact we are even having this debate among three roles players (and I do see Rose as a role player in that he's a classic 6th man no-defense scorer) demonstrates my larger point. We simply don't have the upper level talent to compete in the West. We are very similar to the Pelicans.

I think we should not ne even close to Pelicans in terms of top level offensive talent. Both Holiday and Randle are better than any of our secondary options. One could argue that even Mirotic is better than any of our options.

I agree that if the Pelicans could ever get healthy they could be a pretty good squad. AD is out for a few weeks now. Can they weather that and maybe even get on track? We will see. Injuries (and any other moves teams make) are gonna be a big part of this race both for the Wolves and the other teams.

I didn't realize they were so good offensively (4th in the league in O-rating), but defense is biting them in the butt. Weird. Is AD a better box score defender than actual defender? I know Holiday is known for his defense. But Mikkeman is right, they have a pretty elite offensive squad. And they do it with a lot of 2-pointers and free throws!

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

Q12543 wrote:I think the playoffs are a pipe dream at this point. We just don't have the horses. I know a couple folks here feel we have the talent to be in the playoffs, but when you really look objectively at our roster versus other teams in the West, we just don't. There is KAT and a bunch of average-to-mediocre starters and the same thing off the bench.

I have mused about this before, but I'd like to ask it here: Who is our second best player?

I think it's clearly Robert Covington if you consider both offensive and defensive sides. Based on RPM and onn/off numbers RoCo is closer to KAT than anyone else is to him. Taj is clear 3rd best player.

Others might say Rose because he can create his own shot. One reason guys like RoCo and Taj are pretty efficient is because they aren't the ones having to facilitate and create shots, yet Rose does so quite efficiently. Now his defense is atrocious, which is the only reason I don't put him clearly ahead of RoCo or Taj.

But the fact we are even having this debate among three roles players (and I do see Rose as a role player in that he's a classic 6th man no-defense scorer) demonstrates my larger point. We simply don't have the upper level talent to compete in the West. We are very similar to the Pelicans.

I think we should not ne even close to Pelicans in terms of top level offensive talent. Both Holiday and Randle are better than any of our secondary options. One could argue that even Mirotic is better than any of our options.

I agree that if the Pelicans could ever get healthy they could be a pretty good squad. AD is out for a few weeks now. Can they weather that and maybe even get on track? We will see. Injuries (and any other moves teams make) are gonna be a big part of this race both for the Wolves and the other teams.

I didn't realize they were so good offensively (4th in the league in O-rating), but defense is biting them in the butt. Weird. Is AD a better box score defender than actual defender? I know Holiday is known for his defense. But Mikkeman is right, they have a pretty elite offensive squad. And they do it with a lot of 2-pointers and free throws!

I wonder if the offensive-defensive numbers are more revealing of their bench. New Orleans has no depth at all. AD is a top 5-8 player in the league. Holiday could arguably make the All-Star game in the loaded West. Then they've got Mirotic and Randle as decent players playing the same damn position. And that's it. The rest of that team is G-Leaguers, IMO.

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

Q12543 wrote:I think the playoffs are a pipe dream at this point. We just don't have the horses. I know a couple folks here feel we have the talent to be in the playoffs, but when you really look objectively at our roster versus other teams in the West, we just don't. There is KAT and a bunch of average-to-mediocre starters and the same thing off the bench.

I have mused about this before, but I'd like to ask it here: Who is our second best player?

I think it's clearly Robert Covington if you consider both offensive and defensive sides. Based on RPM and onn/off numbers RoCo is closer to KAT than anyone else is to him. Taj is clear 3rd best player.

Others might say Rose because he can create his own shot. One reason guys like RoCo and Taj are pretty efficient is because they aren't the ones having to facilitate and create shots, yet Rose does so quite efficiently. Now his defense is atrocious, which is the only reason I don't put him clearly ahead of RoCo or Taj.

But the fact we are even having this debate among three roles players (and I do see Rose as a role player in that he's a classic 6th man no-defense scorer) demonstrates my larger point. We simply don't have the upper level talent to compete in the West. We are very similar to the Pelicans.

I think we should not ne even close to Pelicans in terms of top level offensive talent. Both Holiday and Randle are better than any of our secondary options. One could argue that even Mirotic is better than any of our options.

I agree that if the Pelicans could ever get healthy they could be a pretty good squad. AD is out for a few weeks now. Can they weather that and maybe even get on track? We will see. Injuries (and any other moves teams make) are gonna be a big part of this race both for the Wolves and the other teams.

I didn't realize they were so good offensively (4th in the league in O-rating), but defense is biting them in the butt. Weird. Is AD a better box score defender than actual defender? I know Holiday is known for his defense. But Mikkeman is right, they have a pretty elite offensive squad. And they do it with a lot of 2-pointers and free throws!

I wonder if the offensive-defensive numbers are more revealing of their bench. New Orleans has no depth at all. AD is a top 5-8 player in the league. Holiday could arguably make the All-Star game in the loaded West. Then they've got Mirotic and Randle as decent players playing the same damn position. And that's it. The rest of that team is G-Leaguers, IMO.

Saw some stat that showed the Pelicans are +20 better when Holiday is on the court vs. off the court.

Mikkeman wrote:

Q12543 wrote:I think the playoffs are a pipe dream at this point. We just don't have the horses. I know a couple folks here feel we have the talent to be in the playoffs, but when you really look objectively at our roster versus other teams in the West, we just don't. There is KAT and a bunch of average-to-mediocre starters and the same thing off the bench.

I have mused about this before, but I'd like to ask it here: Who is our second best player?

I think it's clearly Robert Covington if you consider both offensive and defensive sides. Based on RPM and onn/off numbers RoCo is closer to KAT than anyone else is to him. Taj is clear 3rd best player.

Thank you for coming up with the clear answer, mikkeman. When you have an all-NBA defensive player who also makes threes at a good clip and high volume, you have a player worthy of #2 status on almost any team, and definitely the second best player on this team. We have all seen how this team plays with and without Rob, and the difference is substantial. I love Taj, but have him as 4th behind Rose because of Rose's extraordinary offensive ability.

Q12543 wrote:I think the playoffs are a pipe dream at this point. We just don't have the horses. I know a couple folks here feel we have the talent to be in the playoffs, but when you really look objectively at our roster versus other teams in the West, we just don't. There is KAT and a bunch of average-to-mediocre starters and the same thing off the bench.

I have mused about this before, but I'd like to ask it here: Who is our second best player?

Q12543 wrote:I think the playoffs are a pipe dream at this point. We just don't have the horses. I know a couple folks here feel we have the talent to be in the playoffs, but when you really look objectively at our roster versus other teams in the West, we just don't. There is KAT and a bunch of average-to-mediocre starters and the same thing off the bench.

I have mused about this before, but I'd like to ask it here: Who is our second best player?

I've answered your bolded question in my previous post, but I want to address your other point, Q...that our roster isn't as talented as the rest of the West. You and I have gone back and forth on this one, but let's compare the (arguably) top four players on the teams we are competing with:

Wolves: KAT, RoCo, Rose, Gibson
Clippers: Harrell, Harris, Williams, Gallinari
Jazz: Gobert, Mitchell, Favors. Ingles
Spurs: DeRozen, Aldrich, Gay, Forbes
Kings: Fox, Hield, Cauley-Stein, Bogdonavic
Pelicans: Davis, Randle, Holiday, Mirotec

I'm leaving out the Lakers because the nature of that team changes so dramatically with or without James. I see the Pelicans as having the best top 4 of the teams we are competing with, but I think our top 4 are comparable or better than the other 4 teams. Plus, our supporting core (Teague, Saric, Wiggins, Jones, Okogie, Dieng, Tolliver) is far superior to the Pelicans', and as good as any of the other four teams in my opinion. I continue to believe that coaching and injuries have held this team back this season more than talent. We may have taken care of the coaching situation...at least we have removed the bad, it remains to be seen whether we have put the right guy in. Now we need to take care of the injury situation. Because if we don't have our second best player and a backup PG who leads the league in A:TO, I agree that playoffs are a pipe dream.

LST, I think the Jazz and Clippers foursomes are easily better than ours to go along with the Pelicans. The Spurs are less talented on paper but they have one of the greatest coaches in history, so guys that would be in the G-league or end of bench with the Wolves end up being productive 8th men on the Spurs.

The Kings might be the one team up there we have a leg up on. I kind of think they are playing with house money and might falter soon.

WAIT... HOLD ON A MINUTE...

Are we saying that our max contract $150M player NEARING HIS PRIME is not one of the top 4 players on a sub .500 team?

WAIT... HOLD ON A MINUTE...

He's at least top 5. Right? RIGHT?!?!?!