AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. You MUST blame the players. Superstar players overcome bad coaching. You guys want a list of star players who overcame bad coaching? It's very very long.
Wiggins has NOT improved in multiple years... with multiple coaches. Eventually, a superstar player... or even a star player... figures it out for himself if he wants it enough. He does NOT stagnate or regress. If Wiggins became even an All Star at this point... it would be a huge anomaly in the 70 year history of the league. Other guys have shown only minimal improvement. Or, stagnation for a couple of years before exploding. But we're in Year 5 and he's already gotten paid (See #2). It aint happening in any kind of meaningful way. Sorry guys.
2. Entitlement. This one is a gray area. But I've mentioned it repeatedly on this site. So a 22-year-old already known for inconsistent effort and doing things his way is rewarded with $150M. And we expect him to suddenly change? Why would he? Neither guy has even been benched for bad efforts... so there's really no incentive. Yelling from the coach and public insults from a former teammate didn't seem to do much either.
And back to the money thing... YES. It is about the money sometimes. It would be foolish/myopic/naive to think otherwise.
3. Thibs. He's gotta go. I think we all (or most of us) agree. But on the list of reasons for the stagnation and/or regression for Wiggins and Towns... he's not at the top of the list for reason #1.
4. Glen Taylor. I don't think we can talk about too many dysfunctional things in this organization without bringing up the guy in charge of the league's worst NBA franchise... EVER. It's a losing culture. And to think the owner has nothing to do with that is giving him a free pass he definitely doesn't deserve.
There is merit in what you're saying, but how do you explain how a guy goes from scoring 23.6 ppg under one coach, to 16.3 ppg under another? And all this happens a couple years before he even gets into his prime? And how does the shooting percentage have a similar drop off? I think it's clear someone isn't being used to take advantage of his abilities. I've long given up on the idea of Wiggins being a superstar, but I sure hope we get to see him under a different regime before he gets casted away.
We go from a bad team to a good team. What's that say about the player that his stats going down has not mattered in the slightest on our W-L bottom line? Good stats bad team is a very real thing. They have to figure out how to be good stats good team players. Some of that is coaching, but most of it is developing basketball skills that are immune to system such as being able to create your own shot, becoming a reliable shooter, working on your body so you dicatate your game on the floor and not be able to get pushed around, etc. There's a reason guys have been able to develop into all-stars even with poor coaching. There are base level basketball skills that you can refine to be almost immune to bad coaching. Wiggins has a lot to work on in that regard and Towns has a little to still work on.
Khansy, we're not a good team. The biggest difference is the change in head coach. And I didn't even think Mitchell was any good. The reduction in shooting percentage is an even bigger red flag than the scoring average. He simply doesn't get the ball in the post, and he doesn't get the ball on the way to the basket like he did under Flip and Sam. Like I said he's not going to become a superstar but his talent hasn't dropped 30% at the age of 23.
The solution for more from Wiggins isn't volume which is how he got his 20+ PPG's early in his career. The reduction in shooting percentage is laziness on his part. He just doesn't try very hard to get to the rim anymore which is the opposite from when he was first here. He used to attack the rim relentlessly and now he just settles all the time for the least efficient shot in basketball. That's not coaching. Thibs PG's have no problem attacking the rim. That's on Wiggins. All Thibs can do is bench him. Great. What's that accomplish? He's already been paid. He doesn't need to try hard anymore because it's full guaranteed. I just don't see how the same coach for the last 3 years is responsible for career lows from Towns and Wiggins this year. Yes it's time for a new coach, but be careful what you wish for. Showing little to no signs of improvement in this league for any young player is an indictment on them more than their situation. The really good players find a way to improve.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. You MUST blame the players. Superstar players overcome bad coaching. You guys want a list of star players who overcame bad coaching? It's very very long.
Wiggins has NOT improved in multiple years... with multiple coaches. Eventually, a superstar player... or even a star player... figures it out for himself if he wants it enough. He does NOT stagnate or regress. If Wiggins became even an All Star at this point... it would be a huge anomaly in the 70 year history of the league. Other guys have shown only minimal improvement. Or, stagnation for a couple of years before exploding. But we're in Year 5 and he's already gotten paid (See #2). It aint happening in any kind of meaningful way. Sorry guys.
2. Entitlement. This one is a gray area. But I've mentioned it repeatedly on this site. So a 22-year-old already known for inconsistent effort and doing things his way is rewarded with $150M. And we expect him to suddenly change? Why would he? Neither guy has even been benched for bad efforts... so there's really no incentive. Yelling from the coach and public insults from a former teammate didn't seem to do much either.
And back to the money thing... YES. It is about the money sometimes. It would be foolish/myopic/naive to think otherwise.
3. Thibs. He's gotta go. I think we all (or most of us) agree. But on the list of reasons for the stagnation and/or regression for Wiggins and Towns... he's not at the top of the list for reason #1.
4. Glen Taylor. I don't think we can talk about too many dysfunctional things in this organization without bringing up the guy in charge of the league's worst NBA franchise... EVER. It's a losing culture. And to think the owner has nothing to do with that is giving him a free pass he definitely doesn't deserve.
I disagree with point 1 here. The players do take a portion of the blame but enviornment and opportunity has a way bigger impact on success over talent in every single profession. Basketball is no different. Since these guys are all coming in at 19 now with no consistent proper coaching, there has to be a development focus to breed success. There is no magic formula, but what can undoubtedly be said is that very talented players have suffered under bad coaching and poor infrastructure, and that very raw players have overachieved by being placed in good infrastructure with good coaching. This doesn't always have to be a head coach, but is certainly related to the infrastructure teams put around player development. Yes Jerry West makes great personell moves, but has always had player development infastructure within the teams he has helped to build. There was a reason He and Kerr brought Steve Nash into consult as soon he retired. The only time we saw this on the Wolves was by happenstance when McHale was already there to work with Garnett on his post game. Great franchises get this and stress player development. We perpetually stink and haven't had a player overachieve since Garnett.
Fair enough that we disagree.
Just so you know... I have 70 years of NBA basketball history on my side.
[Note: I agree great infrastructure can help. My point is that bad infrastructure has rarely held a potential superstar back from not only becoming a superstar... but from improving at all. The Wolves guys aren't even improving after multiple years. I know it's easier (and less depressing) to blame the coach. But it's fleeting. Right now, it looks like Wolves fans are stuck rooting for a dog and an underachiever for several more seasons.]
70 years beats 40 if that's how we're measuring a good point. I respect your 70 years, but every industry from the beginning of industry has seen individual success built on a supportive organization and mentorship rather than independent individual achievement. Otherwise, countries with nothing would have been making an equally proportional amount of key advancements and achievements. Basketball is no different, especially as a team enterprise. Seems too easy to me to just blame the individual who at 19 didn't get the proper guidance and support that other successful 19 year olds get.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. You MUST blame the players. Superstar players overcome bad coaching. You guys want a list of star players who overcame bad coaching? It's very very long.
Wiggins has NOT improved in multiple years... with multiple coaches. Eventually, a superstar player... or even a star player... figures it out for himself if he wants it enough. He does NOT stagnate or regress. If Wiggins became even an All Star at this point... it would be a huge anomaly in the 70 year history of the league. Other guys have shown only minimal improvement. Or, stagnation for a couple of years before exploding. But we're in Year 5 and he's already gotten paid (See #2). It aint happening in any kind of meaningful way. Sorry guys.
2. Entitlement. This one is a gray area. But I've mentioned it repeatedly on this site. So a 22-year-old already known for inconsistent effort and doing things his way is rewarded with $150M. And we expect him to suddenly change? Why would he? Neither guy has even been benched for bad efforts... so there's really no incentive. Yelling from the coach and public insults from a former teammate didn't seem to do much either.
And back to the money thing... YES. It is about the money sometimes. It would be foolish/myopic/naive to think otherwise.
3. Thibs. He's gotta go. I think we all (or most of us) agree. But on the list of reasons for the stagnation and/or regression for Wiggins and Towns... he's not at the top of the list for reason #1.
4. Glen Taylor. I don't think we can talk about too many dysfunctional things in this organization without bringing up the guy in charge of the league's worst NBA franchise... EVER. It's a losing culture. And to think the owner has nothing to do with that is giving him a free pass he definitely doesn't deserve.
I disagree with point 1 here. The players do take a portion of the blame but enviornment and opportunity has a way bigger impact on success over talent in every single profession. Basketball is no different. Since these guys are all coming in at 19 now with no consistent proper coaching, there has to be a development focus to breed success. There is no magic formula, but what can undoubtedly be said is that very talented players have suffered under bad coaching and poor infrastructure, and that very raw players have overachieved by being placed in good infrastructure with good coaching. This doesn't always have to be a head coach, but is certainly related to the infrastructure teams put around player development. Yes Jerry West makes great personell moves, but has always had player development infastructure within the teams he has helped to build. There was a reason He and Kerr brought Steve Nash into consult as soon he retired. The only time we saw this on the Wolves was by happenstance when McHale was already there to work with Garnett on his post game. Great franchises get this and stress player development. We perpetually stink and haven't had a player overachieve since Garnett.
Fair enough that we disagree.
Just so you know... I have 70 years of NBA basketball history on my side.
[Note: I agree great infrastructure can help. My point is that bad infrastructure has rarely held a potential superstar back from not only becoming a superstar... but from improving at all. The Wolves guys aren't even improving after multiple years. I know it's easier (and less depressing) to blame the coach. But it's fleeting. Right now, it looks like Wolves fans are stuck rooting for a dog and an underachiever for several more seasons.]
70 years beats 40 if that's how we're measuring a good point. I respect your 70 years, but every industry from the beginning of industry has seen individual success built on a supportive organization and mentorship rather than independent individual achievement. Otherwise, countries with nothing would have been making an equally proportional amount of key advancements and achievements. Basketball is no different, especially as a team enterprise. Seems too easy to me to just blame the individual who at 19 didn't get the proper guidance and support that other successful 19 year olds get.
I don't care about the mentorship program at Target Corporation or Honeywell or anywhere else.
I only care about the NBA in a discussion about the history of the NBA...
AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. You MUST blame the players. Superstar players overcome bad coaching. You guys want a list of star players who overcame bad coaching? It's very very long.
Wiggins has NOT improved in multiple years... with multiple coaches. Eventually, a superstar player... or even a star player... figures it out for himself if he wants it enough. He does NOT stagnate or regress. If Wiggins became even an All Star at this point... it would be a huge anomaly in the 70 year history of the league. Other guys have shown only minimal improvement. Or, stagnation for a couple of years before exploding. But we're in Year 5 and he's already gotten paid (See #2). It aint happening in any kind of meaningful way. Sorry guys.
2. Entitlement. This one is a gray area. But I've mentioned it repeatedly on this site. So a 22-year-old already known for inconsistent effort and doing things his way is rewarded with $150M. And we expect him to suddenly change? Why would he? Neither guy has even been benched for bad efforts... so there's really no incentive. Yelling from the coach and public insults from a former teammate didn't seem to do much either.
And back to the money thing... YES. It is about the money sometimes. It would be foolish/myopic/naive to think otherwise.
3. Thibs. He's gotta go. I think we all (or most of us) agree. But on the list of reasons for the stagnation and/or regression for Wiggins and Towns... he's not at the top of the list for reason #1.
4. Glen Taylor. I don't think we can talk about too many dysfunctional things in this organization without bringing up the guy in charge of the league's worst NBA franchise... EVER. It's a losing culture. And to think the owner has nothing to do with that is giving him a free pass he definitely doesn't deserve.
I disagree with point 1 here. The players do take a portion of the blame but enviornment and opportunity has a way bigger impact on success over talent in every single profession. Basketball is no different. Since these guys are all coming in at 19 now with no consistent proper coaching, there has to be a development focus to breed success. There is no magic formula, but what can undoubtedly be said is that very talented players have suffered under bad coaching and poor infrastructure, and that very raw players have overachieved by being placed in good infrastructure with good coaching. This doesn't always have to be a head coach, but is certainly related to the infrastructure teams put around player development. Yes Jerry West makes great personell moves, but has always had player development infastructure within the teams he has helped to build. There was a reason He and Kerr brought Steve Nash into consult as soon he retired. The only time we saw this on the Wolves was by happenstance when McHale was already there to work with Garnett on his post game. Great franchises get this and stress player development. We perpetually stink and haven't had a player overachieve since Garnett.
Fair enough that we disagree.
Just so you know... I have 70 years of NBA basketball history on my side.
[Note: I agree great infrastructure can help. My point is that bad infrastructure has rarely held a potential superstar back from not only becoming a superstar... but from improving at all. The Wolves guys aren't even improving after multiple years. I know it's easier (and less depressing) to blame the coach. But it's fleeting. Right now, it looks like Wolves fans are stuck rooting for a dog and an underachiever for several more seasons.]
70 years beats 40 if that's how we're measuring a good point. I respect your 70 years, but every industry from the beginning of industry has seen individual success built on a supportive organization and mentorship rather than independent individual achievement. Otherwise, countries with nothing would have been making an equally proportional amount of key advancements and achievements. Basketball is no different, especially as a team enterprise. Seems too easy to me to just blame the individual who at 19 didn't get the proper guidance and support that other successful 19 year olds get.
I don't care about the mentorship program at Target Corporation or Honeywell or anywhere else.
I only care about the NBA in a discussion about the history of the NBA...
Actually Abe, it's YOUR fault!
WIggins might have worked harder had Thibs not given him the money, Thibs might have been fired if Taylor felt his hand forced. Taylor might have made changes had you not bought tickets to the game. So it's you, Lip, Long, and anyone else attending games and paying for tickets.
Hell it's anybody who watches the NBA, because we are ultimately endorsing the way things are run. When we allow tax dollars spent on sporting arenas and stadiums, we are providing the money for Wig.
All I know for sure is that they have destroyed what I loved about sports. COMPETITION!
It makes me want to throw up when I think of Wig making 150 mil, or Gorgui getting 15 mil per season. Would anyone pay even two dollars to watch Gorgui play BB?
AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. You MUST blame the players. Superstar players overcome bad coaching. You guys want a list of star players who overcame bad coaching? It's very very long.
Wiggins has NOT improved in multiple years... with multiple coaches. Eventually, a superstar player... or even a star player... figures it out for himself if he wants it enough. He does NOT stagnate or regress. If Wiggins became even an All Star at this point... it would be a huge anomaly in the 70 year history of the league. Other guys have shown only minimal improvement. Or, stagnation for a couple of years before exploding. But we're in Year 5 and he's already gotten paid (See #2). It aint happening in any kind of meaningful way. Sorry guys.
2. Entitlement. This one is a gray area. But I've mentioned it repeatedly on this site. So a 22-year-old already known for inconsistent effort and doing things his way is rewarded with $150M. And we expect him to suddenly change? Why would he? Neither guy has even been benched for bad efforts... so there's really no incentive. Yelling from the coach and public insults from a former teammate didn't seem to do much either.
And back to the money thing... YES. It is about the money sometimes. It would be foolish/myopic/naive to think otherwise.
3. Thibs. He's gotta go. I think we all (or most of us) agree. But on the list of reasons for the stagnation and/or regression for Wiggins and Towns... he's not at the top of the list for reason #1.
4. Glen Taylor. I don't think we can talk about too many dysfunctional things in this organization without bringing up the guy in charge of the league's worst NBA franchise... EVER. It's a losing culture. And to think the owner has nothing to do with that is giving him a free pass he definitely doesn't deserve.
I disagree with point 1 here. The players do take a portion of the blame but enviornment and opportunity has a way bigger impact on success over talent in every single profession. Basketball is no different. Since these guys are all coming in at 19 now with no consistent proper coaching, there has to be a development focus to breed success. There is no magic formula, but what can undoubtedly be said is that very talented players have suffered under bad coaching and poor infrastructure, and that very raw players have overachieved by being placed in good infrastructure with good coaching. This doesn't always have to be a head coach, but is certainly related to the infrastructure teams put around player development. Yes Jerry West makes great personell moves, but has always had player development infastructure within the teams he has helped to build. There was a reason He and Kerr brought Steve Nash into consult as soon he retired. The only time we saw this on the Wolves was by happenstance when McHale was already there to work with Garnett on his post game. Great franchises get this and stress player development. We perpetually stink and haven't had a player overachieve since Garnett.
Fair enough that we disagree.
Just so you know... I have 70 years of NBA basketball history on my side.
[Note: I agree great infrastructure can help. My point is that bad infrastructure has rarely held a potential superstar back from not only becoming a superstar... but from improving at all. The Wolves guys aren't even improving after multiple years. I know it's easier (and less depressing) to blame the coach. But it's fleeting. Right now, it looks like Wolves fans are stuck rooting for a dog and an underachiever for several more seasons.]
70 years beats 40 if that's how we're measuring a good point. I respect your 70 years, but every industry from the beginning of industry has seen individual success built on a supportive organization and mentorship rather than independent individual achievement. Otherwise, countries with nothing would have been making an equally proportional amount of key advancements and achievements. Basketball is no different, especially as a team enterprise. Seems too easy to me to just blame the individual who at 19 didn't get the proper guidance and support that other successful 19 year olds get.
I don't care about the mentorship program at Target Corporation or Honeywell or anywhere else.
I only care about the NBA in a discussion about the history of the NBA...
The point stands for the NBA, it's not an anomaly. 19 year olds need mentorship and guidance in any area of life, especially in a culture that is producing less mature 19 year olds. The history of the NBA has a lot more unsuccessful 18 and 19 year old talents that fizzled out than ones exceeded their potential. This was why the league was pushing so hard to have a 20 year old age minimum before they settled with the union on 19.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. You MUST blame the players. Superstar players overcome bad coaching. You guys want a list of star players who overcame bad coaching? It's very very long.
Wiggins has NOT improved in multiple years... with multiple coaches. Eventually, a superstar player... or even a star player... figures it out for himself if he wants it enough. He does NOT stagnate or regress. If Wiggins became even an All Star at this point... it would be a huge anomaly in the 70 year history of the league. Other guys have shown only minimal improvement. Or, stagnation for a couple of years before exploding. But we're in Year 5 and he's already gotten paid (See #2). It aint happening in any kind of meaningful way. Sorry guys.
2. Entitlement. This one is a gray area. But I've mentioned it repeatedly on this site. So a 22-year-old already known for inconsistent effort and doing things his way is rewarded with $150M. And we expect him to suddenly change? Why would he? Neither guy has even been benched for bad efforts... so there's really no incentive. Yelling from the coach and public insults from a former teammate didn't seem to do much either.
And back to the money thing... YES. It is about the money sometimes. It would be foolish/myopic/naive to think otherwise.
3. Thibs. He's gotta go. I think we all (or most of us) agree. But on the list of reasons for the stagnation and/or regression for Wiggins and Towns... he's not at the top of the list for reason #1.
4. Glen Taylor. I don't think we can talk about too many dysfunctional things in this organization without bringing up the guy in charge of the league's worst NBA franchise... EVER. It's a losing culture. And to think the owner has nothing to do with that is giving him a free pass he definitely doesn't deserve.
I disagree with point 1 here. The players do take a portion of the blame but enviornment and opportunity has a way bigger impact on success over talent in every single profession. Basketball is no different. Since these guys are all coming in at 19 now with no consistent proper coaching, there has to be a development focus to breed success. There is no magic formula, but what can undoubtedly be said is that very talented players have suffered under bad coaching and poor infrastructure, and that very raw players have overachieved by being placed in good infrastructure with good coaching. This doesn't always have to be a head coach, but is certainly related to the infrastructure teams put around player development. Yes Jerry West makes great personell moves, but has always had player development infastructure within the teams he has helped to build. There was a reason He and Kerr brought Steve Nash into consult as soon he retired. The only time we saw this on the Wolves was by happenstance when McHale was already there to work with Garnett on his post game. Great franchises get this and stress player development. We perpetually stink and haven't had a player overachieve since Garnett.
Fair enough that we disagree.
Just so you know... I have 70 years of NBA basketball history on my side.
[Note: I agree great infrastructure can help. My point is that bad infrastructure has rarely held a potential superstar back from not only becoming a superstar... but from improving at all. The Wolves guys aren't even improving after multiple years. I know it's easier (and less depressing) to blame the coach. But it's fleeting. Right now, it looks like Wolves fans are stuck rooting for a dog and an underachiever for several more seasons.]
70 years beats 40 if that's how we're measuring a good point. I respect your 70 years, but every industry from the beginning of industry has seen individual success built on a supportive organization and mentorship rather than independent individual achievement. Otherwise, countries with nothing would have been making an equally proportional amount of key advancements and achievements. Basketball is no different, especially as a team enterprise. Seems too easy to me to just blame the individual who at 19 didn't get the proper guidance and support that other successful 19 year olds get.
I don't care about the mentorship program at Target Corporation or Honeywell or anywhere else.
I only care about the NBA in a discussion about the history of the NBA...
The point stands for the NBA, it's not an anomaly. 19 year olds need mentorship and guidance in any area of life, especially in a culture that is producing less mature 19 year olds. The history of the NBA has a lot more unsuccessful 18 and 19 year old talents that fizzled out than ones exceeded their potential. This was why the league was pushing so hard to have a 20 year old age minimum before they settled with the union on 19.
I've already said that a great infrastructure can help. But that's not my point.
My point is that even a bad infrastructure simply hasn't proven to prevent stars/superstar players from improving... or causing them to regress... before suddenly improving when out of that environment.
We're on Year 5 now. Even with the worst coach in the world... if a star player can't figure out a way to improve... that's on him.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. You MUST blame the players. Superstar players overcome bad coaching. You guys want a list of star players who overcame bad coaching? It's very very long.
Wiggins has NOT improved in multiple years... with multiple coaches. Eventually, a superstar player... or even a star player... figures it out for himself if he wants it enough. He does NOT stagnate or regress. If Wiggins became even an All Star at this point... it would be a huge anomaly in the 70 year history of the league. Other guys have shown only minimal improvement. Or, stagnation for a couple of years before exploding. But we're in Year 5 and he's already gotten paid (See #2). It aint happening in any kind of meaningful way. Sorry guys.
2. Entitlement. This one is a gray area. But I've mentioned it repeatedly on this site. So a 22-year-old already known for inconsistent effort and doing things his way is rewarded with $150M. And we expect him to suddenly change? Why would he? Neither guy has even been benched for bad efforts... so there's really no incentive. Yelling from the coach and public insults from a former teammate didn't seem to do much either.
And back to the money thing... YES. It is about the money sometimes. It would be foolish/myopic/naive to think otherwise.
3. Thibs. He's gotta go. I think we all (or most of us) agree. But on the list of reasons for the stagnation and/or regression for Wiggins and Towns... he's not at the top of the list for reason #1.
4. Glen Taylor. I don't think we can talk about too many dysfunctional things in this organization without bringing up the guy in charge of the league's worst NBA franchise... EVER. It's a losing culture. And to think the owner has nothing to do with that is giving him a free pass he definitely doesn't deserve.
There is merit in what you're saying, but how do you explain how a guy goes from scoring 23.6 ppg under one coach, to 16.3 ppg under another? And all this happens a couple years before he even gets into his prime? And how does the shooting percentage have a similar drop off? I think it's clear someone isn't being used to take advantage of his abilities. I've long given up on the idea of Wiggins being a superstar, but I sure hope we get to see him under a different regime before he gets casted away.
Maybe someone already point this out but the Wiggins season scoring 23ppg was under this coach named Tom Thibodeau. Maybe you have heard of him. :) Sorry I just thought it was too funny not to point it out. Who gets the blame for Wiggins not being better? It's a shared thing as well as some bad luck with Glip passing away. It's clear he isn't a great player at this point that can overcome circumstances and be the guy he could be despite stuff. A lot of that has to be on him.
I'll say it again I don't really care much about Wigginsscoring this year. Even with his flaws he can put up some points. I want to see defense energy and do some other shit. I haven't seen the Auns loss but Wiggins looks like he is giving a shit most nights. That's the important development for me. An above average defense that could still turn into a Derozen type scorer? Damn good player. There is still time for it to happen.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. You MUST blame the players. Superstar players overcome bad coaching. You guys want a list of star players who overcame bad coaching? It's very very long.
Wiggins has NOT improved in multiple years... with multiple coaches. Eventually, a superstar player... or even a star player... figures it out for himself if he wants it enough. He does NOT stagnate or regress. If Wiggins became even an All Star at this point... it would be a huge anomaly in the 70 year history of the league. Other guys have shown only minimal improvement. Or, stagnation for a couple of years before exploding. But we're in Year 5 and he's already gotten paid (See #2). It aint happening in any kind of meaningful way. Sorry guys.
2. Entitlement. This one is a gray area. But I've mentioned it repeatedly on this site. So a 22-year-old already known for inconsistent effort and doing things his way is rewarded with $150M. And we expect him to suddenly change? Why would he? Neither guy has even been benched for bad efforts... so there's really no incentive. Yelling from the coach and public insults from a former teammate didn't seem to do much either.
And back to the money thing... YES. It is about the money sometimes. It would be foolish/myopic/naive to think otherwise.
3. Thibs. He's gotta go. I think we all (or most of us) agree. But on the list of reasons for the stagnation and/or regression for Wiggins and Towns... he's not at the top of the list for reason #1.
4. Glen Taylor. I don't think we can talk about too many dysfunctional things in this organization without bringing up the guy in charge of the league's worst NBA franchise... EVER. It's a losing culture. And to think the owner has nothing to do with that is giving him a free pass he definitely doesn't deserve.
There is merit in what you're saying, but how do you explain how a guy goes from scoring 23.6 ppg under one coach, to 16.3 ppg under another? And all this happens a couple years before he even gets into his prime? And how does the shooting percentage have a similar drop off? I think it's clear someone isn't being used to take advantage of his abilities. I've long given up on the idea of Wiggins being a superstar, but I sure hope we get to see him under a different regime before he gets casted away.
Maybe someone already point this out but the Wiggins season scoring 23ppg was under this coach named Tom Thibodeau. Maybe you have heard of him. :) Sorry I just thought it was too funny not to point it out. Who gets the blame for Wiggins not being better? It's a shared thing as well as some bad luck with Glip passing away. It's clear he isn't a great player at this point that can overcome circumstances and be the guy he could be despite stuff. A lot of that has to be on him.
I'll say it again I don't really care much about Wigginsscoring this year. Even with his flaws he can put up some points. I want to see defense energy and do some other shit. I haven't seen the Auns loss but Wiggins looks like he is giving a shit most nights. That's the important development for me. An above average defense that could still turn into a Derozen type scorer? Damn good player. There is still time for it to happen.
I would pump the brakes on that entire last question. An above average defender Wiggins is not. He's shown some defensive flashes and improved chops, sure, but until those flashes turn into tangible production, it means little in the grand scheme of things. And the hope that Wiggins gets to DeRozan's level offensively, especially considering the nonexistent ability to get to the free throw line, is a complete dream at this point.
I know fans like/need to hold on to hope, but I think the writing is on the wall with Wiggins. He is who he is.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. You MUST blame the players. Superstar players overcome bad coaching. You guys want a list of star players who overcame bad coaching? It's very very long.
Wiggins has NOT improved in multiple years... with multiple coaches. Eventually, a superstar player... or even a star player... figures it out for himself if he wants it enough. He does NOT stagnate or regress. If Wiggins became even an All Star at this point... it would be a huge anomaly in the 70 year history of the league. Other guys have shown only minimal improvement. Or, stagnation for a couple of years before exploding. But we're in Year 5 and he's already gotten paid (See #2). It aint happening in any kind of meaningful way. Sorry guys.
2. Entitlement. This one is a gray area. But I've mentioned it repeatedly on this site. So a 22-year-old already known for inconsistent effort and doing things his way is rewarded with $150M. And we expect him to suddenly change? Why would he? Neither guy has even been benched for bad efforts... so there's really no incentive. Yelling from the coach and public insults from a former teammate didn't seem to do much either.
And back to the money thing... YES. It is about the money sometimes. It would be foolish/myopic/naive to think otherwise.
3. Thibs. He's gotta go. I think we all (or most of us) agree. But on the list of reasons for the stagnation and/or regression for Wiggins and Towns... he's not at the top of the list for reason #1.
4. Glen Taylor. I don't think we can talk about too many dysfunctional things in this organization without bringing up the guy in charge of the league's worst NBA franchise... EVER. It's a losing culture. And to think the owner has nothing to do with that is giving him a free pass he definitely doesn't deserve.
There is merit in what you're saying, but how do you explain how a guy goes from scoring 23.6 ppg under one coach, to 16.3 ppg under another? And all this happens a couple years before he even gets into his prime? And how does the shooting percentage have a similar drop off? I think it's clear someone isn't being used to take advantage of his abilities. I've long given up on the idea of Wiggins being a superstar, but I sure hope we get to see him under a different regime before he gets casted away.
Maybe someone already point this out but the Wiggins season scoring 23ppg was under this coach named Tom Thibodeau. Maybe you have heard of him. :) Sorry I just thought it was too funny not to point it out. Who gets the blame for Wiggins not being better? It's a shared thing as well as some bad luck with Glip passing away. It's clear he isn't a great player at this point that can overcome circumstances and be the guy he could be despite stuff. A lot of that has to be on him.
I'll say it again I don't really care much about Wigginsscoring this year. Even with his flaws he can put up some points. I want to see defense energy and do some other shit. I haven't seen the Auns loss but Wiggins looks like he is giving a shit most nights. That's the important development for me. An above average defense that could still turn into a Derozen type scorer? Damn good player. There is still time for it to happen.
I would pump the brakes on that entire last question. An above average defender Wiggins is not. He's shown some defensive flashes and improved chops, sure, but until those flashes turn into tangible production, it means little in the grand scheme of things. And the hope that Wiggins gets to DeRozan's level offensively, especially considering the nonexistent ability to get to the free throw line, is a complete dream at this point.
I know fans like/need to hold on to hope, but I think the writing is on the wall with Wiggins. He is who he is.
To clarify (I clearly didn't read back through it before posting) I'm seeing a trend towards Wiggins being above average as a defender not that he has arrived. Also he used to get to the FT line at a very high rate so that's not exactly a ridiculous thing to hope for. Meanwhile he is a better 3 point shooter than DeRozan so that's far from a small thing. Some people have closed the book on Wiggins. I'm seeing something worth having a bit of optimism. The people that don't that's a fair position I just want to explain mine.
Only the truly special best of the best can overcome a bad organization, poor management, bad coaching and help take the team and franchise to the next level. LeBron, Jordan, etc. You can even throw in a guy like Dirk, I remember the Mavs being horrific before he came into his prime. Even KG couldn't get this franchise over the hump.
So yes it's a combination of things. It's up to the player and their natural gifts to take them and the team up a notch. It's up to the front office (Thibs) to surround the team with the best talent and functional chemistry as well. It's up to the Owner who hires the coach to get the team to play the best.
Shaq recruited Phil Jackson in LA, he mentioned Riley as a prime reason he went to the Heat. Coaching and management matter. You can't win unless you surround the team with the most talent you can.
Does it helped people crowned Wiggins and KAT before they won anything? Nope. Does it help that management and coaching suck? Nope that doesn't help either.
I think we were hoping that KAT and/or Wiggins could be that top 5 elite level player. For KAT it's not too late. I think for Wigs that's super slim at this point. What's the saying, a Leopard can't change it's spots. Wigs isn't going to all of a sudden become a great ball handler and with a great motor, unlesss he decides he is tired of losing.
