KAT/Roco Player Pair this season - 506 minutes on floor together - Drtg 116.2
KAT/Gibson 2018 - 1,279 mins - Drtg 110.7
KAT/Gibson 2017 - 2,179 mins - Drtg 107.0
KAT/Dieng 2016 - 2,161 mins - Drtg 110.5
KAT/Dieng 2015 - 1,129 mins - Drtg 107.7
Those numbers still aren't great, but they are a hell of a lot better than KAT/RoCo. Would inserting Vonleh as our starting C, moving RoCo to SF, and having either Okogie/Culver/Graham out of the starting lineup really hurt our offense that much? I don't think so.
Now look at covs drtg with any center not kat or bell.
KAT/Roco Player Pair this season - 506 minutes on floor together - Drtg 116.2
KAT/Gibson 2018 - 1,279 mins - Drtg 110.7
KAT/Gibson 2017 - 2,179 mins - Drtg 107.0
KAT/Dieng 2016 - 2,161 mins - Drtg 110.5
KAT/Dieng 2015 - 1,129 mins - Drtg 107.7
Those numbers still aren't great, but they are a hell of a lot better than KAT/RoCo. Would inserting Vonleh as our starting C, moving RoCo to SF, and having either Okogie/Culver/Graham out of the starting lineup really hurt our offense that much? I don't think so.
Now look at covs drtg with any center not kat or bell.
Cov+dieng drtg 98.1
Cov+vonleh drtg 86
Elite numbers.
Wowzers. This says the problem is more about KAT than RoCo at PF unfortunately.....
Still, if this front office and coaching staff claim to be all in on analytics and surrounding their best player with the right kind of players, they are simply too stubborn to try a KAT/Vonleh/RoCo starting front line. What's funny is that I think this is exactly what Thibs would do.
KAT/Roco Player Pair this season - 506 minutes on floor together - Drtg 116.2
KAT/Gibson 2018 - 1,279 mins - Drtg 110.7
KAT/Gibson 2017 - 2,179 mins - Drtg 107.0
KAT/Dieng 2016 - 2,161 mins - Drtg 110.5
KAT/Dieng 2015 - 1,129 mins - Drtg 107.7
Those numbers still aren't great, but they are a hell of a lot better than KAT/RoCo. Would inserting Vonleh as our starting C, moving RoCo to SF, and having either Okogie/Culver/Graham out of the starting lineup really hurt our offense that much? I don't think so.
Now look at covs drtg with any center not kat or bell.
Cov+dieng drtg 98.1
Cov+vonleh drtg 86
Elite numbers.
Wowzers. This says the problem is more about KAT than RoCo at PF unfortunately.....
Still, if this front office and coaching staff claim to be all in on analytics and surrounding their best player with the right kind of players, they are simply too stubborn to try a KAT/Vonleh/RoCo starting front line. What's funny is that I think this is exactly what Thibs would do.
Vonleh + wiggs 98.1
The only players vonleh doesnt have a good drtg with are teague and kat.
Wiggs
Graham
Cov
Vonleh
Kat
Is probably the best we can do to cover kat defensively.
One of the most surprising things to me of the season is Vonleh and the 3 point shot. He has taken 13 threes this season and made 1. The percentage isn't self is surprising but really more so I thought he was going to be letting it fly more than that based on him getting up a few his last couple years and this organization wanting guys to get up those shots. He clearly doesn't look comfortable with the shot this year but if he was more of a threat from 3 I think it would make the organization and coach staff consider paying him more and maybe even next to Towns. He probably isn't ever going to be a big volume guy but...I suppose you never know and 3-4 threes a game takes for a guy that's basically a center still would be pretty good I guess. One of Vonleh's problems earlier in his career was he was not a good 2 point shooter making him really inefficient. That was trending in a better direction and this year he is really efficient. Some of that was basically eliminating long 2's. He is just feasting in the paint this year. Meanwhile he is shooting an easily career high from the FT line at over 83%. Maybe he can work with Culver! Lol The 3 point shot isn't a new thing to Vonleh he has been taking some from college all the way through his pro career. It's not ridiculous to think it's possible it becomes a worthwhile aspect of his game. I'm not sure he is a guy that's a legit starter on a good team but I like having him here. I wish they would let him go to work a bit more as an offensive player somewhat in the way Taj used to. He can do some damage as a physical guy bullying his way to the hoop and scoring. He plays a different way and is physically different but I see him as a guy that could have similar impact to Taj...both with positives and weaknesses.
My only issue with some of those numbers are that they are very small sample sizes. Anything less then 10 games worth is basically useless statistically. You can have too much "luck" one way or the other that wrecks the stats. Also, Vonleh usually always is playing against backups as well, which is not factored into the numbers. That's a major factor.
So while a KAT, Vonleh, RoCo front may look like a guaranteed winner defensively, it may not be in real world practice.
Would winning a couple more games this season really be worth changing the ultimate direction of the system as well? We simply likely do not have the 3 and D type of PF on the roster yet that works balanced on both sides of the floor.
Maybe DIeng on a much smaller contract should be starting. His success in the corner 3 area isn't bad. Will still provide driving lanes for Wiggins or whoever comes here that can do that.
WolvesFan21 wrote:My only issue with some of those numbers are that they are very small sample sizes. Anything less then 10 games worth is basically useless statistically. You can have too much "luck" one way or the other that wrecks the stats. Also, Vonleh usually always is playing against backups as well, which is not factored into the numbers. That's a major factor.
So while a KAT, Vonleh, RoCo front may look like a guaranteed winner defensively, it may not be in real world practice.
Would winning a couple more games this season really be worth changing the ultimate direction of the system as well? We simply likely do not have the 3 and D type of PF on the roster yet that works balanced on both sides of the floor.
Maybe DIeng on a much smaller contract should be starting. His success in the corner 3 area isn't bad. Will still provide driving lanes for Wiggins or whoever comes here that can do that.
Every pairing over 300 minutes.
Kat is the only player with a +110 drtg with everyone.
WolvesFan21 wrote:My only issue with some of those numbers are that they are very small sample sizes. Anything less then 10 games worth is basically useless statistically. You can have too much "luck" one way or the other that wrecks the stats. Also, Vonleh usually always is playing against backups as well, which is not factored into the numbers. That's a major factor.
So while a KAT, Vonleh, RoCo front may look like a guaranteed winner defensively, it may not be in real world practice.
Would winning a couple more games this season really be worth changing the ultimate direction of the system as well? We simply likely do not have the 3 and D type of PF on the roster yet that works balanced on both sides of the floor.
Maybe DIeng on a much smaller contract should be starting. His success in the corner 3 area isn't bad. Will still provide driving lanes for Wiggins or whoever comes here that can do that.
Every pairing over 300 minutes.
Kat is the only player with a +110 drtg with everyone.
If the theory is we will only play 4s that can shoot the 3, than we have our priorities messed up. What about the 1-3 spots? If Vonleh or Dieng were to start at PF with RoCo moving to SF, the guy bumped out of the lineup (Okogie, Culver or Graham) is no better from outside. We literally lose nothing in terms of outside shooting, yet gain a lot in defense and rebounding.
WolvesFan21 wrote:My only issue with some of those numbers are that they are very small sample sizes. Anything less then 10 games worth is basically useless statistically. You can have too much "luck" one way or the other that wrecks the stats. Also, Vonleh usually always is playing against backups as well, which is not factored into the numbers. That's a major factor.
So while a KAT, Vonleh, RoCo front may look like a guaranteed winner defensively, it may not be in real world practice.
Would winning a couple more games this season really be worth changing the ultimate direction of the system as well? We simply likely do not have the 3 and D type of PF on the roster yet that works balanced on both sides of the floor.
Maybe DIeng on a much smaller contract should be starting. His success in the corner 3 area isn't bad. Will still provide driving lanes for Wiggins or whoever comes here that can do that.
Every pairing over 300 minutes.
Kat is the only player with a +110 drtg with everyone.
Our best defensive pairing with at least 300 minutes is dieng/wiggs at 104.
Dieng/cov 98.1 in 244 minutes
Dieng/teague 102 in 205 minutes
These aren't small sample sizes.
Yet some are still against backup players. Big difference. Just saying the stats can be flawed in several ways.
I do appreciate the stats as well, we just have to factor everything in.
Dieng's been up and down with his advanced defensive numbers over his career, so it's kind of hard to tell with him. The eye test tells me that Vonleh is the better overall defender simply because he holds his ground and walls up more effectively.
But one thing we can say without question is that KAT is not a good defender. We have multiple years of data. I think the front office just needs to accept this as fact, allow him to focus on offense, and pair him with a big that can do the dirty work and help protect the paint. It's just never going to work unless the plan is to go full on SSOL and get a bunch of run and gun shooters out there and try to outscore everyone, defense be damned.
We can all agree KAT isn't a good defender. He led the league in fouls last season too. My only point is that placing X player into the starting lineup against starters won't completely translate.
It's not out of the question that KAT becomes an avg to above avg defender though. I think that is reasonable.
