Souhan analyzes Thibs' initial season

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

We'll see how much Thibs changes his approach, but one thing he absolutely has to do is get some like-minded vets in the door that can play regular rotation minutes and not melt like a snowflake whenever the opposing team dials up the physicality and defensive pressure on us (usually in 2nd halves).

I don't know, Q...many of us here thought he did that last year when his signed Aldrich, Rush and Hill...three veterans who had all proven they belonged on NBA rosters. But he just didn't use them. Aldrich is a tough player and certainly like-minded with Thibs, and he played tough every time he was on the floor. But Thibs refused to give him the minutes he got the season before with the Clippers. Did Aldrich suddenly forget how to play basketball, or is this more about Thibs refusal to play his bench? I think you know where I stand. I think this is much more about Thibs changing than getting the right players. I honestly don't see Thibs bringing in any free agents this summer that fit better than the three he brought in last summer.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

We'll see how much Thibs changes his approach, but one thing he absolutely has to do is get some like-minded vets in the door that can play regular rotation minutes and not melt like a snowflake whenever the opposing team dials up the physicality and defensive pressure on us (usually in 2nd halves).

I don't know, Q...many of us here thought he did that last year when his signed Aldrich, Rush and Hill...three veterans who had all proven they belonged on NBA rosters. But he just didn't use them. Aldrich is a tough player and certainly like-minded with Thibs, and he played tough every time he was on the floor. But Thibs refused to give him the minutes he got the season before with the Clippers. Did Aldrich suddenly forget how to play basketball, or is this more about Thibs refusal to play his bench? I think you know where I stand. I think this is much more about Thibs changing than getting the right players. I honestly don't see Thibs bringing in any free agents this summer that fit better than the three he brought in last summer.

I'm not sure he signed anyone with the gravitas of a Taj Gibson or even Tony Allen, despite his age. When I say like minded, I mean guys that are known for defense, toughness, and intensity.

So yes, I agree with you that Thibs didn't coax as many minutes or as good production from the vets he did sign, but I'm hoping he uplevels by a tier or two both in talent level and personality fit. We'll see...your skepticism is warranted.

[Monster]

We'll see how much Thibs changes his approach, but one thing he absolutely has to do is get some like-minded vets in the door that can play regular rotation minutes and not melt like a snowflake whenever the opposing team dials up the physicality and defensive pressure on us (usually in 2nd halves).

I don't know, Q...many of us here thought he did that last year when his signed Aldrich, Rush and Hill...three veterans who had all proven they belonged on NBA rosters. But he just didn't use them. Aldrich is a tough player and certainly like-minded with Thibs, and he played tough every time he was on the floor. But Thibs refused to give him the minutes he got the season before with the Clippers. Did Aldrich suddenly forget how to play basketball, or is this more about Thibs refusal to play his bench? I think you know where I stand. I think this is much more about Thibs changing than getting the right players. I honestly don't see Thibs bringing in any free agents this summer that fit better than the three he brought in last summer.

I'm not sure he signed anyone with the gravitas of a Taj Gibson or even Tony Allen, despite his age. When I say like minded, I mean guys that are known for defense, toughness, and intensity.

So yes, I agree with you that Thibs didn't coax as many minutes or as good production from the vets he did sign, but I'm hoping he uplevels by a tier or two both in talent level and personality fit. We'll see...your skepticism is warranted.

On Aldrich...

1. Again there were times when when were you going to play him when Towns and Dieng are really both C's?

2. Robson has mentioned this a few times on his podcast that he thinks Thibs kinda knows what he has in Aldrich and didn't play him as much because he wanted to see younger guys. Britt said in one podcast he felt a little sorry for Cole because he is probably a solid player but he just didn't play much so when he did it wasn't great. That of course to some effect doesn't reflect well on Thibs either.

One more thought. Nearly every season there is some coach on a team that comes in does a pretty good job exceeds expectations and...a few months later gets fired because they didn't sustain their success for some reason. Most people thought Thibs was gonna try and do everything at all costs to win his first year and maybe flame out after a couple years. It's been the opposite which is a bit stunning. However, it's quite possible the big turnaround comes in year 2 especially if they can get some more bench depth. It gets old but it takes time to build up a culture and system especially when there has been so much change like the Wolves or the Kings have had the last few seasons. We will see but I remain optimistic among the skeptism of this thread. :)

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

We'll see how much Thibs changes his approach, but one thing he absolutely has to do is get some like-minded vets in the door that can play regular rotation minutes and not melt like a snowflake whenever the opposing team dials up the physicality and defensive pressure on us (usually in 2nd halves).

I don't know, Q...many of us here thought he did that last year when his signed Aldrich, Rush and Hill...three veterans who had all proven they belonged on NBA rosters. But he just didn't use them. Aldrich is a tough player and certainly like-minded with Thibs, and he played tough every time he was on the floor. But Thibs refused to give him the minutes he got the season before with the Clippers. Did Aldrich suddenly forget how to play basketball, or is this more about Thibs refusal to play his bench? I think you know where I stand. I think this is much more about Thibs changing than getting the right players. I honestly don't see Thibs bringing in any free agents this summer that fit better than the three he brought in last summer.

I'm not sure he signed anyone with the gravitas of a Taj Gibson or even Tony Allen, despite his age. When I say like minded, I mean guys that are known for defense, toughness, and intensity.

So yes, I agree with you that Thibs didn't coax as many minutes or as good production from the vets he did sign, but I'm hoping he uplevels by a tier or two both in talent level and personality fit. We'll see...your skepticism is warranted.

On Aldrich...

1. Again there were times when when were you going to play him when Towns and Dieng are really both C's?

2. Robson has mentioned this a few times on his podcast that he thinks Thibs kinda knows what he has in Aldrich and didn't play him as much because he wanted to see younger guys. Britt said in one podcast he felt a little sorry for Cole because he is probably a solid player but he just didn't play much so when he did it wasn't great. That of course to some effect doesn't reflect well on Thibs either.

One more thought. Nearly every season there is some coach on a team that comes in does a pretty good job exceeds expectations and...a few months later gets fired because they didn't sustain their success for some reason. Most people thought Thibs was gonna try and do everything at all costs to win his first year and maybe flame out after a couple years. It's been the opposite which is a bit stunning. However, it's quite possible the big turnaround comes in year 2 especially if they can get some more bench depth. It gets old but it takes time to build up a culture and system especially when there has been so much change like the Wolves or the Kings have had the last few seasons. We will see but I remain optimistic among the skeptism of this thread. :)

Monster, with KAT, Wig and Zach all in the top five in MPG, isn't that exactly what Thibs did? I agree that PBO Thibs showed restraint and took a longer view, but I think coach Thibs does what he thinks is necessary to win every game...I think he's just wired that way. I admire his competiveness and desire to win...I just disagree with his methodology.

[Monster]

We'll see how much Thibs changes his approach, but one thing he absolutely has to do is get some like-minded vets in the door that can play regular rotation minutes and not melt like a snowflake whenever the opposing team dials up the physicality and defensive pressure on us (usually in 2nd halves).

I don't know, Q...many of us here thought he did that last year when his signed Aldrich, Rush and Hill...three veterans who had all proven they belonged on NBA rosters. But he just didn't use them. Aldrich is a tough player and certainly like-minded with Thibs, and he played tough every time he was on the floor. But Thibs refused to give him the minutes he got the season before with the Clippers. Did Aldrich suddenly forget how to play basketball, or is this more about Thibs refusal to play his bench? I think you know where I stand. I think this is much more about Thibs changing than getting the right players. I honestly don't see Thibs bringing in any free agents this summer that fit better than the three he brought in last summer.

I'm not sure he signed anyone with the gravitas of a Taj Gibson or even Tony Allen, despite his age. When I say like minded, I mean guys that are known for defense, toughness, and intensity.

So yes, I agree with you that Thibs didn't coax as many minutes or as good production from the vets he did sign, but I'm hoping he uplevels by a tier or two both in talent level and personality fit. We'll see...your skepticism is warranted.

On Aldrich...

1. Again there were times when when were you going to play him when Towns and Dieng are really both C's?

2. Robson has mentioned this a few times on his podcast that he thinks Thibs kinda knows what he has in Aldrich and didn't play him as much because he wanted to see younger guys. Britt said in one podcast he felt a little sorry for Cole because he is probably a solid player but he just didn't play much so when he did it wasn't great. That of course to some effect doesn't reflect well on Thibs either.

One more thought. Nearly every season there is some coach on a team that comes in does a pretty good job exceeds expectations and...a few months later gets fired because they didn't sustain their success for some reason. Most people thought Thibs was gonna try and do everything at all costs to win his first year and maybe flame out after a couple years. It's been the opposite which is a bit stunning. However, it's quite possible the big turnaround comes in year 2 especially if they can get some more bench depth. It gets old but it takes time to build up a culture and system especially when there has been so much change like the Wolves or the Kings have had the last few seasons. We will see but I remain optimistic among the skeptism of this thread. :)

Monster, with KAT, Wig and Zach all in the top five in MPG, isn't that exactly what Thibs did? I agree that PBO Thibs showed restraint and took a longer view, but I think coach Thibs does what he thinks is necessary to win every game...I think he's just wired that way. I admire his competiveness and desire to win...I just disagree with his methodology.

It depends on whether or not you think those guys every one of those minutes gave you the best chance to win. Idk for one thing defensive metrics say maybe not. No way was Thibs tanking I just didn't see a guy completely committed to winning every game this year. He simply coached like a guy developing a young roster. Honestly IMO I think that's pretty difficult to argue against. Now whether you agree on how he did it? Yeah that's a fair discussion that's been pretty much laid out already.

[BloopOracle]

We'll see how much Thibs changes his approach, but one thing he absolutely has to do is get some like-minded vets in the door that can play regular rotation minutes and not melt like a snowflake whenever the opposing team dials up the physicality and defensive pressure on us (usually in 2nd halves).

I don't know, Q...many of us here thought he did that last year when his signed Aldrich, Rush and Hill...three veterans who had all proven they belonged on NBA rosters. But he just didn't use them. Aldrich is a tough player and certainly like-minded with Thibs, and he played tough every time he was on the floor. But Thibs refused to give him the minutes he got the season before with the Clippers. Did Aldrich suddenly forget how to play basketball, or is this more about Thibs refusal to play his bench? I think you know where I stand. I think this is much more about Thibs changing than getting the right players. I honestly don't see Thibs bringing in any free agents this summer that fit better than the three he brought in last summer.

I'm not sure he signed anyone with the gravitas of a Taj Gibson or even Tony Allen, despite his age. When I say like minded, I mean guys that are known for defense, toughness, and intensity.

So yes, I agree with you that Thibs didn't coax as many minutes or as good production from the vets he did sign, but I'm hoping he uplevels by a tier or two both in talent level and personality fit. We'll see...your skepticism is warranted.

On Aldrich...

1. Again there were times when when were you going to play him when Towns and Dieng are really both C's?

2. Robson has mentioned this a few times on his podcast that he thinks Thibs kinda knows what he has in Aldrich and didn't play him as much because he wanted to see younger guys. Britt said in one podcast he felt a little sorry for Cole because he is probably a solid player but he just didn't play much so when he did it wasn't great. That of course to some effect doesn't reflect well on Thibs either.

One more thought. Nearly every season there is some coach on a team that comes in does a pretty good job exceeds expectations and...a few months later gets fired because they didn't sustain their success for some reason. Most people thought Thibs was gonna try and do everything at all costs to win his first year and maybe flame out after a couple years. It's been the opposite which is a bit stunning. However, it's quite possible the big turnaround comes in year 2 especially if they can get some more bench depth. It gets old but it takes time to build up a culture and system especially when there has been so much change like the Wolves or the Kings have had the last few seasons. We will see but I remain optimistic among the skeptism of this thread. :)

Monster, with KAT, Wig and Zach all in the top five in MPG, isn't that exactly what Thibs did? I agree that PBO Thibs showed restraint and took a longer view, but I think coach Thibs does what he thinks is necessary to win every game...I think he's just wired that way. I admire his competiveness and desire to win...I just disagree with his methodology.

Thibs saved his cap space and played his young guys almost exclusively over veterans, in what world is that trying to win now at all costs?

[Lipoli390]

We'll see how much Thibs changes his approach, but one thing he absolutely has to do is get some like-minded vets in the door that can play regular rotation minutes and not melt like a snowflake whenever the opposing team dials up the physicality and defensive pressure on us (usually in 2nd halves).

I'm all for bringing in a talented vet who adds toughness to our rotation. But let's not kid ourselves into believing that adding Taj Gibson takes us from 31 wins into the Western Conference playoffs. If our core guys are snowflakes, then this franchise is in deep you know what. Ricky, Kris Dunn, Gorgui and Tyus all play with toughness. Towns shows a lot of toughness on the offensive end and needs to extend that aspect of his personality to the defensive end. Wiggins is a work in progress on the toughness and intensity scale. I do think there's something to LST's point about Wiggins and KAT playing too many minutes to be effective on both ends late in games. Whenever my wife hears me complaining about Wiggins, she points out how tired he looks and I've noticed that his defense and hustle start to deteriorate after he's been in the game for a long stretch. If we don't want these two guys to melt like snowflakes late in games, Thibs has to stop playing these guys 37 minutes a game.

As for our bench, I never liked the addition of Jordan Hill. Every head coach he's played for has ended up putting him in their doghouse for lack of effort. I thought Rush was an ok addition at the time, but nothing to write home about and he's certainly not a model of toughness. I liked the addition of Cole. He's certainly tough, but watching him play I can see why Thibs limited his minutes. He has stone hands and becomes a huge liability on the offensive end. So Thibs the PBO didn't do a stellar job last summer to say the least, but I stil applaud him for not doing anything dumb and for keeping his powder dry for this summer.

I think we'll end up signing Taj as our signature FA signing this summer. I'll be disappointed if that's the case, but I'm prepared for that eventuality. I think Thibs will try hard to trade our pick to the Bulls for Jimmy Butler -- obviously a Thibs type player. It will be an interesting next few months and it all starts tomorrow night with the draft lottery.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

We'll see how much Thibs changes his approach, but one thing he absolutely has to do is get some like-minded vets in the door that can play regular rotation minutes and not melt like a snowflake whenever the opposing team dials up the physicality and defensive pressure on us (usually in 2nd halves).

I don't know, Q...many of us here thought he did that last year when his signed Aldrich, Rush and Hill...three veterans who had all proven they belonged on NBA rosters. But he just didn't use them. Aldrich is a tough player and certainly like-minded with Thibs, and he played tough every time he was on the floor. But Thibs refused to give him the minutes he got the season before with the Clippers. Did Aldrich suddenly forget how to play basketball, or is this more about Thibs refusal to play his bench? I think you know where I stand. I think this is much more about Thibs changing than getting the right players. I honestly don't see Thibs bringing in any free agents this summer that fit better than the three he brought in last summer.

I'm not sure he signed anyone with the gravitas of a Taj Gibson or even Tony Allen, despite his age. When I say like minded, I mean guys that are known for defense, toughness, and intensity.

So yes, I agree with you that Thibs didn't coax as many minutes or as good production from the vets he did sign, but I'm hoping he uplevels by a tier or two both in talent level and personality fit. We'll see...your skepticism is warranted.

On Aldrich...

1. Again there were times when when were you going to play him when Towns and Dieng are really both C's?

2. Robson has mentioned this a few times on his podcast that he thinks Thibs kinda knows what he has in Aldrich and didn't play him as much because he wanted to see younger guys. Britt said in one podcast he felt a little sorry for Cole because he is probably a solid player but he just didn't play much so when he did it wasn't great. That of course to some effect doesn't reflect well on Thibs either.

One more thought. Nearly every season there is some coach on a team that comes in does a pretty good job exceeds expectations and...a few months later gets fired because they didn't sustain their success for some reason. Most people thought Thibs was gonna try and do everything at all costs to win his first year and maybe flame out after a couple years. It's been the opposite which is a bit stunning. However, it's quite possible the big turnaround comes in year 2 especially if they can get some more bench depth. It gets old but it takes time to build up a culture and system especially when there has been so much change like the Wolves or the Kings have had the last few seasons. We will see but I remain optimistic among the skeptism of this thread. :)

Monster, with KAT, Wig and Zach all in the top five in MPG, isn't that exactly what Thibs did? I agree that PBO Thibs showed restraint and took a longer view, but I think coach Thibs does what he thinks is necessary to win every game...I think he's just wired that way. I admire his competiveness and desire to win...I just disagree with his methodology.

Thibs saved his cap space and played his young guys almost exclusively over veterans, in what world is that trying to win now at all costs?

Reread my post, bloop...I said that PBO Thibs showed restraint in not overpaying for free agents, which was an indication of not trying to win now at all costs (although there are rumblings that last off-season might have been more about free agents not wanting to play for Thibs than his restraint...we really don't know). But coach Thibs is a completely different animal from PBO Thibs...much more emotional and prone to poor decision making. I view him as constitutionally unable to take a longer view when he is coaching, but instead making every effort to win every game...that's how you end up with 3 of our guys being in the top 5 in MPG. Frankly, while I think Thibs has a terrific work ethic and really knows the game of basketball, I question his in-game coaching acumen. I think his intensity causes him to panic and make poor decisions.
Think of how many times last season he used up his timeouts too early, leaving him with none to use at critical moments down the stretch (several times this was brought up with frustration in game threads). And of course I find his rotations to be disastrous. Too often a bad (usually offensive) play by a reserve would cause him to substitute a starter back in far too early, resulting in the fatigue and poor defensive play that Lip's wife (and I) noticed at the end of games. I think we're just going to have to disagree on this one, Bloop.

[BloopOracle]

My bad I misread

[60WinTim]

I think everyone needs to remember how this past season played out, because most of you (hi, LST!) seem to have forgotten...

1) The first month and a half of the season produced a 6-18 record (10/26 - 12/11). And remember all those 4th quarter leads we pissed away, and Thibs lamenting how the players need to learn the 4th quarter is a different animal?

2) Over the course of the next 3 months (12/17 - 3/13), the Wolves played .500+ ball with a record of 22-20. So after a poor start to the season, the Wolves played decent ball for just over half a season's worth of games, the last month of which had the Wolves playing some of the best defense in the league. But then Belly went down, and there was nobody left on the roster that could fill his role.

3) And so, yeah, we now have the last month of the season (3/15 - 4/12) with the Wolves falling off the deep end and a 3-13 record. And this is where we can speculate on all the contributing factors, of which there are many.

LST brings up minutes. A lot. And it's hard to argue that isn't a factor. But I do wonder if the bench was deeper and the team was winning more, would minutes continue to be a problem? Hopefully we learn the answer, in a positive way, next season.

LST mentions that Thibs got "his vets". While he clearly wanted Aldrich, I don't see how Rush or Jordan can be viewed as anything other than stop-gaps on one year deals. It was tough to get good vets last year because of all the money that was available. Thibs should be much more productive in the vet department this time around.

LST complains about players not getting better. I think we saw all sorts of improvement over the course of the season. KAT, after a slow start, became unstoppable towards the end of the season. Rubio's growth in the second half of the season was terrific. Belly was playing his best before he went down. Zach was absolutely on the upswing. And even Dunn was playing much better as the season wore on (although his starting point was disappointing!).

The pall hanging over this past season stems from the last month. If you can satisfy yourself with reasons as to why it fell apart (injuries, minutes, bench depth), then you should be able to accept that offseason improvements can be made to allow the team to pick up where they left off on March 13th of 2017.

I know monster is there. And so am I.