Are we looking at this the wrong way?

[Coolbreeze44]

My answer is "all of the above":

- Mitchell wasn't as god-awful as people made him out to be. But to Cam's point, he finally realized that LaVine is not a PG waaaaaaay later than any of us. Shockingly, we became a much better team when he was inserted as a full-time SG.

- Our young guys still don't know how to stay dialed in defensively for 4 quarters. KAT, Wiggins, and LaVine are the three most important players for our future, yet they clearly don't "get it" defensively yet. Their relative youth and inexperience is a plausible explanation (to Nanne's point), but one gets tired of hearing that going on year 3 for a couple of these guys....

- Thibs has taken the ball out of Rubio's hands. In the short term, that has led to a less potent offense. In the long run, perhaps it's the right thing to do. So Coach Thibs takes a hit for that move, but may be it ultimately proves valuable IF the other guys learn how to become better play makers and we don't need to rely on a ball-dominant PG.

The bold parts are pure fallacy on your part. Mitchell might have been worse than he was made out to be. And Rubio has the ball in his hands 90% of the possessions he's on the floor. It's hardly been the complete transformation you think it has.

In terms of judging Mitchell, I don't know how you can call something pure fallacy that can't really be proven. I didn't say he was a great or even good coach. I just don't think he was as god-awful as some folks made him out to be. The fact he got that team to win 29 games last year was solid work given the circumstances. How soon we forget that he was made their head coach under tragic circumstances!

As for Rubio, yes, he still brings the ball up the floor and runs some amount of PnR. But they run far less action through him than before. Perhaps I exaggerated for effect - they haven't literally taken the ball out of his hands. But anyone watching the games can see that he isn't as involved in the offense as he was in years past.

And I'm not convinced that's a bad thing.

[Monster]

Sam had a tough job last year for a massive amount of reasons and regardless of all the things he did wrong most Wolves fans were willing to give him credit at the end of the season for finishing strong. Notice all his staff had no problems finding work that were let go. Sam is the only guy not coaching. He had another option to go back to that he clearly enjoys doing TV work that those other guys don't likely have.

What's the point of mentioning Sam had a tough job last year? The reality is that even though the Wolves have the how hype young roster at the end of the offseason Thibs enddd up with a promising developmental team and all the hype that was forgotten by many. This roster has 2 healthy players on it over 30. They wanted a legit vet to help this team along but they couldn't get it because they were careful with their money and other guys picked better situations. Their top 3 PGs have what around 4 years worth of NBA games between them? Thibs has generally gone with a developmental approach when it comes to minutes as Payne has seen legit minutes over Hill. Rush wasn't available for a few games and he is probably the vet this team will see minutes from and needs. The team is talented but it's really young and inexperienced. This is a job a ton of people would love to have because...it's obvious that this team should be really good down the line but getting there is gonna be frustrating at times.

ive stayed pretty much in the middle on how I view Sam. As for comparing what he did last year to Thibs...there isn't enough totality at this point in the season. What about when the team was like 12-30 after and 8-8 start last year? People were beside themselves when it came to Sam and it was fair. The team was playing awful. It looked like a lost season. Let's see what happens we need to see more. I know it's frustrating to hear guys are young but you can't escape that reality either. It's real

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

My answer is "all of the above":

- Mitchell wasn't as god-awful as people made him out to be. But to Cam's point, he finally realized that LaVine is not a PG waaaaaaay later than any of us. Shockingly, we became a much better team when he was inserted as a full-time SG.

- Our young guys still don't know how to stay dialed in defensively for 4 quarters. KAT, Wiggins, and LaVine are the three most important players for our future, yet they clearly don't "get it" defensively yet. Their relative youth and inexperience is a plausible explanation (to Nanne's point), but one gets tired of hearing that going on year 3 for a couple of these guys....

- Thibs has taken the ball out of Rubio's hands. In the short term, that has led to a less potent offense. In the long run, perhaps it's the right thing to do. So Coach Thibs takes a hit for that move, but may be it ultimately proves valuable IF the other guys learn how to become better play makers and we don't need to rely on a ball-dominant PG.

The bold parts are pure fallacy on your part. Mitchell might have been worse than he was made out to be. And Rubio has the ball in his hands 90% of the possessions he's on the floor. It's hardly been the complete transformation you think it has.

In terms of judging Mitchell, I don't know how you can call something pure fallacy that can't really be proven. I didn't say he was a great or even good coach. I just don't think he was as god-awful as some folks made him out to be. The fact he got that team to win 29 games last year was solid work given the circumstances. How soon we forget that he was made their head coach under tragic circumstances!

As for Rubio, yes, he still brings the ball up the floor and runs some amount of PnR. But they run far less action through him than before. Perhaps I exaggerated for effect - they haven't literally taken the ball out of his hands. But anyone watching the games can see that he isn't as involved in the offense as he was in years past.

And I'm not convinced that's a bad thing.

I'm not either, but our offense has suffered for it in the short term. Our pace is slower and Wiggins/KAT/LaVine have not shown the ability to make others better. But....if this accelerates that process and prevents us from having to be totally dependent on a PG to run a great offense, that's a good thing. Time will tell.

[WildWolf2813]

Thibs' issue is that the things he wants to implements (Wiggins and LaVine as primary ballhandlers) was not something he tried in preseason. If that was a goal of his, why bother drafting Dunn? I think so far, the coaching leaves much to be desired, but he has a track record of doing well. However, the GM /President side of things, scares the hell out of me, but he's a novice at it alongside a guy who crashed and burned in NY. All we've heard are rumors of him being linked to former Bulls and wanting more vets despite running KG out of here. There has yet to be a game where we look at this team and go "this is exactly how they need to play night in night out!" I haven't seen anything to indicate that they're ready to collectively turn the corner. If anything, we're looking at more roster turnover, more time for the roster to gel and thus, more time losing and out of the playoffs.

The deeper issue is that I don't think Thibs has a magical elixir to make Wiggins play with more effort, or for these guys to do something other than score. There are deeper issues than "well they don't play defense." Every optimist just thinks "once they figure it out, look out!" when it reality, by the time they figure it out, they'll be so disenchanted with losing that they won't have the incentive to implement whatever they learned. These guys just think everything will come in due time because everyone is saying that. By the time the wake up call occurs for this team, it might be too late and someone like Towns will just consider everything they put into this season to be a failure.

[Lipoli390]

I think Wild nailed it although my thinking isn't quite as negative. I don't think Sam was a good head coach last season and so far Thibs hasn't shown anything to suggest he's done a good job coaching this team. Nor have our players shown they can defend consistently well and that's an understatement. Moreover, our bench is terrible thus far with the additions of Aldrich, Rush and Jordan Hill making me pine for Prince and KG.

Even forgetting about any comparison to the end of last season, the fact is this team has played poorly through 20% of the season and is clearly no better if not worse than they were prior to last season's allstar break. Same players, different head coach same result at best -- so I'll say at the very least Thibs hasn't done anything yet to improve this team. So yes I hold Thibs primarily responsible for this team's poor play because I do think our talent exceeds our collective performance to date and because of the absence of any discernable improvement. But saying Thibs is primarily responsible doesn't mean he's a bad head coach or even that he's not the right fit for our roster. It might simply mean the team needs more time to adjust to him.

So I'm suspending my participation in the debate over Thibs' share of responsibility for our poor play this season until Jan 2. I want to see how things develop over the next 30 days. While I'm inclined to agree with Wild's long-term prognosis for the Wolves, I'm still not there. I'm clinging to the moments of impressive play we've seen this season, Thibs' reputation as a winner, the talent I see on this roster, and last night's great comeback that unfortunately fell short. I'll continue for a while to hold out hope that all these things portend dramatic improvement eventually this season and a bright future for this team.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I suspect Thibs is a far superior X's and O's guy than Sam (although I admit I don't know this) but I think the importance of X's and O's pales before the psychological aspects of coaching. I think both Sam and Thibs got this young team to play hard, but my observation was they played looser and had more fun playing for Sam...not as much looking over their shoulder. I can tell you I had much more fun going to games last March than I did this November, even though the personnel is much the same. I think that is the main reason this team is so much worse in the first 18 games this year than they were in the final 18 games last year. Something has to change, but I'm not optimistic that it's going to.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I suspect Thibs is a far superior X's and O's guy than Sam (although I admit I don't know this) but I think the importance of X's and O's pales before the psychological aspects of coaching. I think both Sam and Thibs got this young team to play hard, but my observation was they played looser and had more fun playing for Sam...not as much looking over their shoulder. I can tell you I had much more fun going to games last March than I did this November, even though the personnel is much the same. I think that is the main reason this team is so much worse in the first 18 games this year than they were in the final 18 games last year. Something has to change, but I'm not optimistic that it's going to.

Not sure what they really can change at this point from a player personnel perspective. Everyone agrees it's too early to do anything drastic (e.g. like trade Wiggins or LaVine) yet other moves feels like just moving around deck chairs on the Titanic. For example, is trading Bazz for Thomas Robinson really going to have much of an impact?

From a tactics perspective, one thing I'd do is assign KAT to starting Centers and Dieng to starting PFs and tell KAT his #1 priority is defending the paint and rebounding. Yes, Dieng will struggle defending in space at times, but I feel like KAT is ultimately better defensively if close to the basket. And that's more important to an overall defense.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I suspect Thibs is a far superior X's and O's guy than Sam (although I admit I don't know this) but I think the importance of X's and O's pales before the psychological aspects of coaching. I think both Sam and Thibs got this young team to play hard, but my observation was they played looser and had more fun playing for Sam...not as much looking over their shoulder. I can tell you I had much more fun going to games last March than I did this November, even though the personnel is much the same. I think that is the main reason this team is so much worse in the first 18 games this year than they were in the final 18 games last year. Something has to change, but I'm not optimistic that it's going to.

Not sure what they really can change at this point from a player personnel perspective. Everyone agrees it's too early to do anything drastic (e.g. like trade Wiggins or LaVine) yet other moves feels like just moving around deck chairs on the Titanic. For example, is trading Bazz for Thomas Robinson really going to have much of an impact?

From a tactics perspective, one thing I'd do is assign KAT to starting Centers and Dieng to starting PFs and tell KAT his #1 priority is defending the paint and rebounding. Yes, Dieng will struggle defending in space at times, but I feel like KAT is ultimately better defensively if close to the basket. And that's more important to an overall defense.

I'm also not a big proponent of roster changes, but there are so many things Thibs can change to turn this season around:

1) Let KAT be the center defensively, and insist that 80% of his time on offense be around the basket
2) Let Ricky and Tyus be true PGs...give them the keys to driving this offense.
3) Replace Bazz with Payne in the rotation to see if his 3 good games were legit...this allows Belly to play more SF and Wig more SG. Payne may revert to the Bad Payne, but we need to know.
4) Lighten up on the sidelines, and offer some positive encouragement to your players once in a while...or even frequently.
5) Limit practices the day before games to walkthroughs and film sessions...I have no problem with full-court practices when there's a rest day the next day. This team still looks tired to me in the second half compared to opponents.
6) Take some ownership for the failing of this team. I'm tired of hearing what "they" are doing wrong in post-games. Tell us what you are going to do to turn this season around, rather than hoping that the players will change.

There it is...I hope Thibs is reading this. I'm sick of losing.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I suspect Thibs is a far superior X's and O's guy than Sam (although I admit I don't know this) but I think the importance of X's and O's pales before the psychological aspects of coaching. I think both Sam and Thibs got this young team to play hard, but my observation was they played looser and had more fun playing for Sam...not as much looking over their shoulder. I can tell you I had much more fun going to games last March than I did this November, even though the personnel is much the same. I think that is the main reason this team is so much worse in the first 18 games this year than they were in the final 18 games last year. Something has to change, but I'm not optimistic that it's going to.

Not sure what they really can change at this point from a player personnel perspective. Everyone agrees it's too early to do anything drastic (e.g. like trade Wiggins or LaVine) yet other moves feels like just moving around deck chairs on the Titanic. For example, is trading Bazz for Thomas Robinson really going to have much of an impact?

From a tactics perspective, one thing I'd do is assign KAT to starting Centers and Dieng to starting PFs and tell KAT his #1 priority is defending the paint and rebounding. Yes, Dieng will struggle defending in space at times, but I feel like KAT is ultimately better defensively if close to the basket. And that's more important to an overall defense.

I'm also not a big proponent of roster changes, but there are so many things Thibs can change to turn this season around:

1) Let KAT be the center defensively, and insist that 80% of his time on offense be around the basket
2) Let Ricky and Tyus be true PGs...give them the keys to driving this offense.
3) Replace Bazz with Payne in the rotation to see if his 3 good games were legit...this allows Belly to play more SF and Wig more SG. Payne may revert to the Bad Payne, but we need to know.
4) Lighten up on the sidelines, and offer some positive encouragement to your players once in a while...or even frequently.
5) Limit practices the day before games to walkthroughs and film sessions...I have no problem with full-court practices when there's a rest day the next day. This team still looks tired to me in the second half compared to opponents.
6) Take some ownership for the failing of this team. I'm tired of hearing what "they" are doing wrong in post-games. Tell us what you are going to do to turn this season around, rather than hoping that the players will change.

There it is...I hope Thibs is reading this. I'm sick of losing.

Good list.

[thedoper]

I think we're looking at it the wrong way. We were all blinded by homerism. We can't have it both ways. Remember when the majority here didn't want to trade Lavine for Butler? Then most here were against going after a big name free agent (Horford, Durant - not that we would have been successful) because of long term salary implications? We're reaping the results of hoping kids can mature quickly. I assume at some point this year we will make a run that has us all buzzing about the future again. But for now we are seeing the results of the lack of experience on our roster. We are just not that good yet, and coincidentally Pork was right all along - Rubio is not as good as we thought he was. Bottom line the potential is still there, we just aren't winners yet. We really shouldn't be that upset about it, there was no offseason move we made on the roster that should have boosted our expectations so high.