monsterpile wrote:It's too early to say Wiggins can't play SF in this league. Look at Gordon Hayward. That dude is built now who would have guessed that guy was gonna look like that after 2 years at Butler? I'm. Or suggesting Wiggins is gonna get that big but who here reached their physical peak before they turned 22? It's too early. If Wiggins keeps improving his handle and his shot is legit...I don't care who guards him it's gonna be a problem. Rebounding? Eh I'm more interested to see if Wiggins becomes locked in as a terrific defender. If he does that other guys can and will rack up the rebounds. It's interesting to talk about all this but I just think it's too early. The only young player that I would consider trading on this team is Bazz but that's a completely different conversation. Keep all these dudes together.
Monster, I don't think anyone is saying Wig can't play SF in this league. Instead, I think some of us just saying that his best position right now is SG. I fully agree that he may get stronger and become a superstar at SF. But presently he just seems more dominant at both ends of the court when he plays the 2.
Well that's all fine and good but Zach looks like he could be one of the best SGs in the league. Why does Wiggins get to move to SG? Why can't he become a legit SF? He has the length. He has the athletic ability. He is thin. So what? Plenty of guys over the years have been able to defend not being big and strong. Offensively it doesn't matter Wiggins is gonna be a monster it's. It gonna matter who is guarding him.
Also Wiggins just isn't hitting shots the last few games. I don't see any real issues with his shot selection for the most part. Teams are adjusting to him and his jumper doesn't look quite and refined as it did earlier in the season. He maybe has regressed a bit In his shot which seems pretty normal. Guys go through slumps even a guy like Klay Thompson does from time to time. Wiggins isn't that good of a shooter but he is struggling right now. He is gonna figure it out I feel about as confident as anything when it comes to Wiggins offensively.
monsterpile wrote:It's too early to say Wiggins can't play SF in this league. Look at Gordon Hayward. That dude is built now who would have guessed that guy was gonna look like that after 2 years at Butler? I'm. Or suggesting Wiggins is gonna get that big but who here reached their physical peak before they turned 22? It's too early. If Wiggins keeps improving his handle and his shot is legit...I don't care who guards him it's gonna be a problem. Rebounding? Eh I'm more interested to see if Wiggins becomes locked in as a terrific defender. If he does that other guys can and will rack up the rebounds. It's interesting to talk about all this but I just think it's too early. The only young player that I would consider trading on this team is Bazz but that's a completely different conversation. Keep all these dudes together.
Monster, I don't think anyone is saying Wig can't play SF in this league. Instead, I think some of us just saying that his best position right now is SG. I fully agree that he may get stronger and become a superstar at SF. But presently he just seems more dominant at both ends of the court when he plays the 2.
Well that's all fine and good but Zach looks like he could be one of the best SGs in the league. Why does Wiggins get to move to SG? Why can't he become a legit SF? He has the length. He has the athletic ability. He is thin. So what? Plenty of guys over the years have been able to defend not being big and strong. Offensively it doesn't matter Wiggins is gonna be a monster it's. It gonna matter who is guarding him.
Also Wiggins just isn't hitting shots the last few games. I don't see any real issues with his shot selection for the most part. Teams are adjusting to him and his jumper doesn't look quite and refined as it did earlier in the season. He maybe has regressed a bit In his shot which seems pretty normal. Guys go through slumps even a guy like Klay Thompson does from time to time. Wiggins isn't that good of a shooter but he is struggling right now. He is gonna figure it out I feel about as confident as anything when it comes to Wiggins offensively.
Monster, here's why I think Wig gets to move to SG. While he can become a legit SF, he doesn't rebound well enough to be one now...rebounding is a core skill good forwards need to have, and Wig has ranked in the bottom 10% of forwards throughout his career. Second, he has looked dominant on both ends of the court generally when given a chance to play SG...his length gives him a huge advantage. Finally, Zach's on-off number struggles are well-documented here...his defensive lapses and especially his tendency to gamble are really hurting us, and despite his terrific offense, are a real reason for his dreadful on-offs. Why not give the kid a chance to hone his defensive skills against reserve SG's rather continuing to see him struggle guarding better SGs?
If you bench LaVine after the leap he's taken this season so far, you might as well trade him. I'll continue to say that.
Also, Wiggins hasn't been better than LaVine this season. He hasn't been a more efficient scorer, he's not as good of a play-maker, he's barely a better rebounder, he hasn't been a better defender, he's turning the ball over more frequently. The eye test and the numbers confirm that much. But should we bench Wiggins? No. Should we bench LaVine? No.
Wiggins best rebounding season was his.....rookie year. He looks almost the same physically to me as he did then - may be a touch taller.
Some guys just don't add on much weight after a certain point. What makes us think he's suddenly going to pile on 15-20 lbs. of muscle mass if he hasn't to this point? And even if he does, that doesn't necessarily translate to better rebounding and defense. Tyus Jones is a better defensive rebounder than Wiggins right now. Tyus Jones! In fact, on a per 36 minute basis, Wiggins is the team's worst defensive rebounder. Well, John Lucas III is behind him at 0.0, so there's that....A lot of rebounding is instincts, hands, and desire. Wiggins has never demonstrated these things when it comes to rebounding.
I still think he can play SF for long stretches when teams go small, but his ideal position is SG, especially since Thibs seems intent on making him a play maker too. We need a big, 3 & D wing to compliment Wig, assuming he is here for the long haul.
monsterpile wrote:It's too early to say Wiggins can't play SF in this league. Look at Gordon Hayward. That dude is built now who would have guessed that guy was gonna look like that after 2 years at Butler? I'm. Or suggesting Wiggins is gonna get that big but who here reached their physical peak before they turned 22? It's too early. If Wiggins keeps improving his handle and his shot is legit...I don't care who guards him it's gonna be a problem. Rebounding? Eh I'm more interested to see if Wiggins becomes locked in as a terrific defender. If he does that other guys can and will rack up the rebounds. It's interesting to talk about all this but I just think it's too early. The only young player that I would consider trading on this team is Bazz but that's a completely different conversation. Keep all these dudes together.
Monster, I don't think anyone is saying Wig can't play SF in this league. Instead, I think some of us just saying that his best position right now is SG. I fully agree that he may get stronger and become a superstar at SF. But presently he just seems more dominant at both ends of the court when he plays the 2.
Well that's all fine and good but Zach looks like he could be one of the best SGs in the league. Why does Wiggins get to move to SG? Why can't he become a legit SF? He has the length. He has the athletic ability. He is thin. So what? Plenty of guys over the years have been able to defend not being big and strong. Offensively it doesn't matter Wiggins is gonna be a monster it's. It gonna matter who is guarding him.
Also Wiggins just isn't hitting shots the last few games. I don't see any real issues with his shot selection for the most part. Teams are adjusting to him and his jumper doesn't look quite and refined as it did earlier in the season. He maybe has regressed a bit In his shot which seems pretty normal. Guys go through slumps even a guy like Klay Thompson does from time to time. Wiggins isn't that good of a shooter but he is struggling right now. He is gonna figure it out I feel about as confident as anything when it comes to Wiggins offensively.
Monster, here's why I think Wig gets to move to SG. While he can become a legit SF, he doesn't rebound well enough to be one now...rebounding is a core skill good forwards need to have, and Wig has ranked in the bottom 10% of forwards throughout his career. Second, he has looked dominant on both ends of the court generally when given a chance to play SG...his length gives him a huge advantage. Finally, Zach's on-off number struggles are well-documented here...his defensive lapses and especially his tendency to gamble are really hurting us, and despite his terrific offense, are a real reason for his dreadful on-offs. Why not give the kid a chance to hone his defensive skills against reserve SG's rather continuing to see him struggle guarding better SGs?
How many more rebounds is enough for Wiggins to get so people are ok with him in that area? Why can't Wiggins and Lavine play against the competition they are likely to be facing when they will be 23-33 years old or whatever? Have them take their lumps now. Would you be ok with Gordon Hayward as your SF or are his career rebounding numbers too terrible for you?
Camden wrote:If you bench LaVine after the leap he's taken this season so far, you might as well trade him. I'll continue to say that.
Also, Wiggins hasn't been better than LaVine this season. He hasn't been a more efficient scorer, he's not as good of a play-maker, he's barely a better rebounder, he hasn't been a better defender, he's turning the ball over more frequently. The eye test and the numbers confirm that much. But should we bench Wiggins? No. Should we bench LaVine? No.
Well, we're getting to the point where this is another year of "development", i.e. screw the playoffs and get the young guys a bunch of reps and experiment. So I agree that we shouldn't do anything rash today or tomorrow or next month. We should keep our powder dry for now.
But.....this offseason? Next offseason? How much does Thibs need to see these guys in practice and games and how much losing do we need to go through before he decides to field a lineup that can rebound, defend, and exhibit the type of grittiness and toughness he values?
If Andrew Wiggins wasn't drafted No. 1 overall, would we still be looking at him as *the* long-term piece over Zach LaVine? He hasn't been the better player 17 games into his third year so... This is why I struggle to agree with any idea that moves LaVine out of that starting SG spot, especially if it's just to make Wiggins' [effort] flaws less of a liability.
Q12543 wrote:Wiggins best rebounding season was his.....rookie year. He looks almost the same physically to me as he did then - may be a touch taller.
Some guys just don't add on much weight after a certain point. What makes us think he's suddenly going to pile on 15-20 lbs. of muscle mass if he hasn't to this point? And even if he does, that doesn't necessarily translate to better rebounding and defense. Tyus Jones is a better defensive rebounder than Wiggins right now. Tyus Jones! In fact, on a per 36 minute basis, Wiggins is the team's worst defensive rebounder. Well, John Lucas III is behind him at 0.0, so there's that....A lot of rebounding is instincts, hands, and desire. Wiggins has never demonstrated these things when it comes to rebounding.
I still think he can play SF for long stretches when teams go small, but his ideal position is SG, especially since Thibs seems intent on making him a play maker too. We need a big, 3 & D wing to compliment Wig, assuming he is here for the long haul.
Don't sell Tyus short...the skinny unathletic guy appears to have incredible instincts toward the ball, and has really impressed me as a rebounder. Never would have expected that.
And I take issue with Cam's statement that Zach has been superior to Wig this year. As flashy as Zach can be and as frustrated as I get with Wig at times, Wig has been the far superior player this year...and the plus/minus numbers support this conclusion as Zach is the second worst performer on the team by this measure. I think both of them have enormous upside as 2-way players, but Zach's defense currently leaves him far from a 2-way player and makes him more suited to a reserve role than Wig. I think he would thrive in that role.
Camden0916 wrote:If Andrew Wiggins wasn't drafted No. 1 overall, would we still be looking at him as *the* long-term piece over Zach LaVine? He hasn't been the better player 17 games into his third year so... This is why I struggle to agree with any idea that moves LaVine out of that starting SG spot, especially if it's just to make Wiggins' [effort] flaws less of a liability.
If it's so awesome to get Wiggins to SG why not bench him and play someone else at SF? Why the hell is Lavine the bench guy? I'm with you it's a little bizarre. Right now neither guy has done anything to deserve a bench role. They have been pretty good. Good enough to win games? No but anyone else starting over those guys...I don't see it and some guys have had the opportunity. Nobody has seized their chances...except to some extent Payne and Tyus.
VORP, BPM, WS/48, PER... LaVine holds the major advanced statistics (that we frequently go to) in his favor this season. There's not much that Wiggins has been clearly better at and that matches what I've seen on the floor.
