Minnesota Sports Forum

Zach Lowe seems high on "The Finnisher". I'm happy we got Jimmy but I could see this Bulls team being sneaky good in a couple years.

I was positive but luke-warm on the trade initially for all the reasons Duke gave. But I warmed up to the deal even more pretty quickly as I reflected on what it would mean to get Jimmy Butler and considered the potential of Justin Patton. I would have been much happier of course if Thibs had drafted John Collins. :)

As I sit here today, I have two views of the deal - one is a short-term view, the other a long term.

Short term, I think the deal was great and I'm thrilled that we have Jimmy. He's the difference between being in 4th place as we are now and being in 8th, 9th or 10th, where I think we'd be if we hadn't made the deal. I would have preferred to trade Wiggins instead of Zach and Dunn. But that's part of my long-term evaluation because, with Zach still out, we are clearly better off right now with the deal Thibs made.

Long term, I'm not sure. After a slow start the first few weeks of the season, Kris Dunn is now like the player Thibs and most GMs thought he's be. He has a lot of Jimmy Butler in him -- a terrific defender who is highly competitive, plays hard all the time and has the potential develop into a very good offensive/two-way player. I wasn't high on Markkenan, but he has far exceeded my expectations and it's been reported widely that Thibs would have taken him. If Zach comes back largely unaffected by his surgery, I still think he's going to be a terrific player. If just two of those three players develop to their full potential, then who got the better end of the deal will be debatable. If all three develop to their potential -- considering their age and longevity -- I think I'd say the deal ended up better for the Bulls if they end up keeping all three.

Lots of "ifs" on the long-term projection. So I remain very happy with the deal. Like some others, I think I would have preferred to deal Wiggins instead of Zach and Dunn, but until we see Zach back in action, we can't really know how that would have worked out for us. And to be honest, I probably would have ended up doing the same deal as Thibs because of the uncertainty surrounding Zach as to both his long-term prognosis and his return date. Even though I would have been tempted to deal Wiggins instead, I would have gotten cold feet given the unknowns related to Zach. As I mentioned at the time, I would have insisted on including the Bulls' second round pick in return for cash as part of the deal and I think the Bulls would have relented given the fact that they ended up selling it for cash to the Warriors.

I just wish we had kept Ricky, which would have put us in a position to offer Wiggins and Ricky for Kyrie Irving.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Zach LaVine is sorta like the backup QB right now...

His stock is rising while he's not playing.

Meh, I was on the Zach over Wiggins train for 3 years. Never trade Zach unless you get a superstar back. Butler is so it softens it somewhat but-

He was the best contested 3 point shooter the Wolves have ever have. Not many guys can just ISO dribble and 3 ball in your face. In a game where 3 pointers are becoming mandatory to compete we got rid of the best one.

I don't see Golden State trading Curry. I know Zach's shot isn't that good, but it could be. Wiggins is the worst 3 point shooter in the league (almost). You can't win unless you have multiple guys who can 3 ball. If Wiggins stays a 30% shooter then the Wolves will never beat the GSW's or Houstons.

Yea I agree with most say about including Wiggins instead of Zach. I think it's reasonable to think if you include Wiggins you for don't need to include Dunn and/or the pick swap. I didn't have much of an opinion on Markkenan but looking right now, he would be the absolutely perfect pairing for Kat. If used right good luck finding matchups for those two, and then you add Zach's shooting, now your talking about a modern team. I'd love to see GS and Houston try and guard Kat and Lori in a couple years.

I think the only real thing we know right now is we received a very good player in Jimmy Butler in this deal. Everything else is up for debate/wait and see mode even including Wiggins. Sure there is more to go on than when the season started but there is still plenty of stuff that can go one way or another with the young players. Markkanen after a torrid start has not shot the ball as well the last few weeks and missed a couple of games with back spasms. Dunn certainly has shown some positive signs. We haven't really seen what Patton can or can't do yet. We also have likely gotten to see more of Tyus than of this trade hadn't been made which could have its own significance.

monsterpile wrote:I think the only real thing we know right now is we received a very good player in Jimmy Butler in this deal. Everything else is up for debate/wait and see mode even including Wiggins. Sure there is more to go on than when the season started but there is still plenty of stuff that can go one way or another with the young players. Markkanen after a torrid start has not shot the ball as well the last few weeks and missed a couple of games with back spasms. Dunn certainly has shown some positive signs. We haven't really seen what Patton can or can't do yet. We also have likely gotten to see more of Tyus than of this trade hadn't been made which could have its own significance.

I agree, Monster. Butler is the one "known" in this deal with lots of unknowns that will reveal themselves over time. There's also the cascade effect. For example, if trading Wiggins for Butler had meant that we would have kept both Zach and Dunn, that might have caused Thibs to pass signing Teague for 3 guaranteed years at $19 million per year. Assuming the Wolves still make the Rubio deal, that leaves the Wolves with $19 million to spend on another really good FA or two. And I think Butler would have been a great mentor for Dunn, so he might have flourished even more here than he has so far this season in Chicago. In the alternative, the Wolves might have kept Rubio and traded Dunn for some other valuable player or asset. Lot's of possibilities, which is why threads like this are fun.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:I think the only real thing we know right now is we received a very good player in Jimmy Butler in this deal. Everything else is up for debate/wait and see mode even including Wiggins. Sure there is more to go on than when the season started but there is still plenty of stuff that can go one way or another with the young players. Markkanen after a torrid start has not shot the ball as well the last few weeks and missed a couple of games with back spasms. Dunn certainly has shown some positive signs. We haven't really seen what Patton can or can't do yet. We also have likely gotten to see more of Tyus than of this trade hadn't been made which could have its own significance.

I agree, Monster. Butler is the one "known" in this deal with lots of unknowns that will reveal themselves over time. There's also the cascade effect. For example, if trading Wiggins for Butler had meant that we would have kept both Zach and Dunn, that might have caused Thibs to pass signing Teague for 3 guaranteed years at $19 million per year. Assuming the Wolves still make the Rubio deal, that leaves the Wolves with $19 million to spend on another really good FA or two. And I think Butler would have been a great mentor for Dunn, so he might have flourished even more here than he has so far this season in Chicago. In the alternative, the Wolves might have kept Rubio and traded Dunn for some other valuable player or asset. Lot's of possibilities, which is why threads like this are fun.

I doubt Thibs was gonna go into the season with 2 PGs with 3 seasons of basketball between them. I think it's pretty likely he signs someone and still trades Rubio espcially when he got that 1st rounder back. The question nobody seems to answer is who is playing the other wing with Lavine out for months and when he comes back takes time to find himself as a player. I'm not saying they couldn't have found someone that's decent but it's certainly another unknown in a vat of unknowns.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:I think the only real thing we know right now is we received a very good player in Jimmy Butler in this deal. Everything else is up for debate/wait and see mode even including Wiggins. Sure there is more to go on than when the season started but there is still plenty of stuff that can go one way or another with the young players. Markkanen after a torrid start has not shot the ball as well the last few weeks and missed a couple of games with back spasms. Dunn certainly has shown some positive signs. We haven't really seen what Patton can or can't do yet. We also have likely gotten to see more of Tyus than of this trade hadn't been made which could have its own significance.

I agree, Monster. Butler is the one "known" in this deal with lots of unknowns that will reveal themselves over time. There's also the cascade effect. For example, if trading Wiggins for Butler had meant that we would have kept both Zach and Dunn, that might have caused Thibs to pass signing Teague for 3 guaranteed years at $19 million per year. Assuming the Wolves still make the Rubio deal, that leaves the Wolves with $19 million to spend on another really good FA or two. And I think Butler would have been a great mentor for Dunn, so he might have flourished even more here than he has so far this season in Chicago. In the alternative, the Wolves might have kept Rubio and traded Dunn for some other valuable player or asset. Lot's of possibilities, which is why threads like this are fun.

I doubt Thibs was gonna go into the season with 2 PGs with 3 seasons of basketball between them. I think it's pretty likely he signs someone and still trades Rubio espcially when he got that 1st rounder back. The question nobody seems to answer is who is playing the other wing with Lavine out for months and when he comes back takes time to find himself as a player. I'm not saying they couldn't have found someone that's decent but it's certainly another unknown in a vat of unknowns.

Also want to say. If didn't trade for Butler knows if taj and teague come here. Butler makes us attractive, gets us in the door with players like Irving or Deandre Jordan. Does taj or teague want to come here if his buddy butler isn't and we are a borderline playoff team.

Dunn has played solid starting point gaurd on a bad team, can he reach that level on a team that needs to make the playoffs.

Markkenan one skill that he has is 3pt shooting and he has shot around 30% from there for the last month and a half (wiggins % who everyone hates).

We got the best player in the deal and it is going to be damn hard for anyone to sniff where Butler is now. We all love potential but it is not a given players improve year to year and we are seeing it with towns and Wiggins this year (I think both have improved in small ways just not the gigantic leaps).

In the end it has always come down can our #1 picks develop and if they can't we are never going to be championship contenders with Butler, dunn, lavine, lauri or whoever we realistically could put around him.

So I will take a home court advantage in the 1st round of the playoffs with 3 new starters and didn't mortgage the future adding Patton and you guys can take the hopes on the potential improvement on Dunn, lauri and guy coming off an ACL injury ( I do love zach though)

Duke13 wrote:Yea I agree with most say about including Wiggins instead of Zach. I think it's reasonable to think if you include Wiggins you for don't need to include Dunn and/or the pick swap. I didn't have much of an opinion on Markkenan but looking right now, he would be the absolutely perfect pairing for Kat. If used right good luck finding matchups for those two, and then you add Zach's shooting, now your talking about a modern team. I'd love to see GS and Houston try and guard Kat and Lori in a couple years.

I think we'd be even more of a disaster defensively if these two were paired together. Taj has been a godsend (and this is coming from someone that wasn't a fan of signing him to that contract). Without him in frontcourt along with Butler on the wing, we would be the worst defense in the league, especially if you put a rookie PF next to KAT.

I liked the deal at the time and I still like it today, but yeah, it was a little bittersweet because I really liked Dunn and I thought we would miss LaVine's shooting. And while I have never been a huge Wiggins fan, I thought he would turn into a more efficient scorer this year. I was wrong. On the other hand, Zach still has yet to step foot on the court.

I still give Thibs the benefit of the doubt on this one. Also, LaVine was even more of a disaster on defense than Wiggins....