Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Justin Patton is going to fit right in with Wiggins and KAT. These guys are all talented players, but ultimately losers at this stage in their career, for various reasons. With KAT, it's defense. With Wiggins, it's the inability to turn elite talent into anything beyond mediocrity; he's a permanent tease. And with Patton, he's got the soft and lazy disease, which has no cure.

Not feeling too good about the future fellas!

I fear you're right about Patton, but I hope not. As you know, I share your pessimism about the future. I heard someone on NBA radio the other day suggest that the Wolves "pressed the go button to soon," referring to the Butler trade. His point was that Butler will be on the decline when the Warriors finally start to decline and that's especially true when you consider Butler just had all or part of his right knee meniscus removed. There's an argument that the Wolves would have been better off keeping Dunn, LaVine and our #7 draft pick. Dunn brings toughness and defense in a young body with lots of upside. LaVine brings 3-point shooting and ballhandling skills that fit today's NBA along with lots of untapped upside. And although it's reported that the Wolves were going to draft Markkanen, it would have been interesting if they would have traded down a few slots and drafted Mitchell while also getting another asset.
I'm not suggesting that I would have done the things I just mentioned if I had been in charge. But perhaps another, smarter front office would have. There are arguments on both sides.

Another way to come at this issue is to ask yourself the following question. Right now, would you rather be a Wolves fan or a Sixers fan?

I'm still supportive of the move Thibs made to acquire Butler. LaVine and Dunn aren't exactly setting the world on fire in Chicago. The problem is that he has failed to coach the team up defensively and he didn't acquire a legit floor spacer in the offseason.

Taylor handed over the keys to a great foundation that Flip built and Thibs has fumbled it. Can we recover or will this be a year or 2 bounce and than back to rebuilding?

bleedspeed177 wrote:Taylor handed over the keys to a great foundation that Flip built and Thibs has fumbled it. Can we recover or will this be a year or 2 bounce and than back to rebuilding?

That is unfair to Thibs. Flip handed Thibs, KAT, Wiggins and Lavine. He flipped Lavine for an All NBA type player in Butler. We don't know how Kat and/or wiggins would have developed under Flip. We have to remember Flip was even more of a long 2 specialist in his offensive theory so I have no idea how he would have been under Flip. Also Who knows if Kat would be any better or worse.

monsterpile wrote:I'm waiting a little longer to see if Thibs has changed or will change the culture and or made the right or wrong moves yet. People are potentially putting Butler one foot in the grave and he hasn't hit 30 yet. Someone told me a few months ago Taj was done at the age of 32. People are dismissing Patton too soon. I get it people want this thing to turn around now. It's going to take time. It always was and if this team waited it would have taken an even more painfully long time and the reward was not more certain than it is now.

Its more of a fear thing. I have been one of the more positive posters on this board but if we miss the playoffs or make the 7th or 8th seed, it is a little worry sum. We could have 2,1 or 0 draft picks, no salary cap and about to hit lux tax hell. Assuming the lux tax is similar to this year 120 mil. The wolves without adding anybody will be at 112 mil. We also have to resign Belly. Adding a rookie or 2. The wolves will be at the Lux tax before even adding a MLE guy.

Also Kat should make all NBA meaning he will qualify for a higher max than Wiggins (not saying he doesn't deserve it but it still hurts.) so in 2019/2020 we are looking at about 125 million in Wiggins, Butler (assuming he resigns), Kat, Teague, Gorgui and Patton. So we are over the tax and that is not even counting, Resigning Belly, resigning Tyus, a MLE guy, possibility of resigning Taj, anywhere between 1-3 rookies.

We are a year a way from cap hell and there are not a lot of guys who have value, Wiggins is a polorzing contact (I still think we can get good value for him), Kat and Butler are franchise players. Gorgui we will need to add at least 1 first to trade him. Tyus is a backup PG, Patton doesn't have great value at the moment (not saying he won't) and with Teague I don't think he will have great value, we either get a worse player back or we need to add a 1st to get something equal or better.

In the end we go how Wiggins and Kat develop and I am still high on both. But I am also worried that Thibs could do a panic trade if he feels like his job is on the line like SVG did with Blake.

Im just a little worried, that is all. We are going to need to get lucky in the draft.

Thibs flipped 2 top 7 lottery picks and a young star for a mid-round pick and 2 years of Bulter. Eating the cap space that could have been used to build around the young core.

kekgeek1 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:I'm waiting a little longer to see if Thibs has changed or will change the culture and or made the right or wrong moves yet. People are potentially putting Butler one foot in the grave and he hasn't hit 30 yet. Someone told me a few months ago Taj was done at the age of 32. People are dismissing Patton too soon. I get it people want this thing to turn around now. It's going to take time. It always was and if this team waited it would have taken an even more painfully long time and the reward was not more certain than it is now.

Its more of a fear thing. I have been one of the more positive posters on this board but if we miss the playoffs or make the 7th or 8th seed, it is a little worry sum. We could have 2,1 or 0 draft picks, no salary cap and about to hit lux tax hell. Assuming the lux tax is similar to this year 120 mil. The wolves without adding anybody will be at 112 mil. We also have to resign Belly. Adding a rookie or 2. The wolves will be at the Lux tax before even adding a MLE guy.

Also Kat should make all NBA meaning he will qualify for a higher max than Wiggins (not saying he doesn't deserve it but it still hurts.) so in 2019/2020 we are looking at about 125 million in Wiggins, Butler (assuming he resigns), Kat, Teague, Gorgui and Patton. So we are over the tax and that is not even counting, Resigning Belly, resigning Tyus, a MLE guy, possibility of resigning Taj, anywhere between 1-3 rookies.

We are a year a way from cap hell and there are not a lot of guys who have value, Wiggins is a polorzing contact (I still think we can get good value for him), Kat and Butler are franchise players. Gorgui we will need to add at least 1 first to trade him. Tyus is a backup PG, Patton doesn't have great value at the moment (not saying he won't) and with Teague I don't think he will have great value, we either get a worse player back or we need to add a 1st to get something equal or better.

In the end we go how Wiggins and Kat develop and I am still high on both. But I am also worried that Thibs could do a panic trade if he feels like his job is on the line like SVG did with Blake.

Im just a little worried, that is all. We are going to need to get lucky in the draft.

Yeah, I think Thibs is sort of stuck.....

Q12543 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Justin Patton is going to fit right in with Wiggins and KAT. These guys are all talented players, but ultimately losers at this stage in their career, for various reasons. With KAT, it's defense. With Wiggins, it's the inability to turn elite talent into anything beyond mediocrity; he's a permanent tease. And with Patton, he's got the soft and lazy disease, which has no cure.

Not feeling too good about the future fellas!

I fear you're right about Patton, but I hope not. As you know, I share your pessimism about the future. I heard someone on NBA radio the other day suggest that the Wolves "pressed the go button to soon," referring to the Butler trade. His point was that Butler will be on the decline when the Warriors finally start to decline and that's especially true when you consider Butler just had all or part of his right knee meniscus removed. There's an argument that the Wolves would have been better off keeping Dunn, LaVine and our #7 draft pick. Dunn brings toughness and defense in a young body with lots of upside. LaVine brings 3-point shooting and ballhandling skills that fit today's NBA along with lots of untapped upside. And although it's reported that the Wolves were going to draft Markkanen, it would have been interesting if they would have traded down a few slots and drafted Mitchell while also getting another asset.
I'm not suggesting that I would have done the things I just mentioned if I had been in charge. But perhaps another, smarter front office would have. There are arguments on both sides.

Another way to come at this issue is to ask yourself the following question. Right now, would you rather be a Wolves fan or a Sixers fan?

I'm still supportive of the move Thibs made to acquire Butler. LaVine and Dunn aren't exactly setting the world on fire in Chicago. The problem is that he has failed to coach the team up defensively and he didn't acquire a legit floor spacer in the offseason.

I wasn't on board with the Butler trade because I thought it was too early for the team, but he is great two way player so i can live with it. What bothers me the most is that Thibs took a team supposedly loaded with young talent, assets and cap space, and two years later we look close to another rebuild.

To date I believe Thibs is responsible for signing Gorgui to a ridiculous 4 year 64 mil deal (which I have been continually critical of if for no other reason than he didn't wait for his RFA year). He signed Cole to a 7 mil/yr deal and never plays him, he traded Ricky and added another 5 mil to get Teague, who is a defensive liability on a team that already sucked on the defensive side of the ball. He signed JC who is another bad defender. He drafted Patton who is also defensively challenged. He rewarded WIg with the 5 year max, a year earlier than he had to. Oh, and lets not forget that he had offered Bazz a deal worth between 8-10 mil that luckily was turned down.

All of the above and we now have a playoff bubble team in cap hell with no high picks and close to the bottom in defense.

What was Thibs good at again????

bleedspeed177 wrote:Thibs flipped 2 top 7 lottery picks and a young star for a mid-round pick and 2 years of Bulter. Eating the cap space that could have been used to build around the young core.

Flip was not around when we had the Dunn pick or the 7th pick last year. Also we will see what Lavine gets but if Dunn and Markaanan are any good we will have to pay them also.

Also I do love Zach but he is on another losing team and the team shits the bed when he is on the floor defensively. Team are 6 pts better when he is on the court (9th percentile at his position) , 4% on eFG% (7th percentile at his position). Compared to this boards whipping boy Wiggins where teams .5 worse when he is on the court (54th percentile at his position) and 1.6% worse when Wiggins is on the court (74th percentile at his position).

bleedspeed177 wrote:Thibs flipped 2 top 7 lottery picks and a young star for a mid-round pick and 2 years of Bulter. Eating the cap space that could have been used to build around the young core.

I hear ya Bleed and a good argument could be made for staying pat last offseason. But how has that "young core" developed? KAT still sucks defensively, Wiggins is still a mediocre tease, Dunn turns the ball over a ton and has a wobbly shot, and LaVine hasn't exactly lit it up in Chicago yet (although of course he did against us).

sjm34 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Justin Patton is going to fit right in with Wiggins and KAT. These guys are all talented players, but ultimately losers at this stage in their career, for various reasons. With KAT, it's defense. With Wiggins, it's the inability to turn elite talent into anything beyond mediocrity; he's a permanent tease. And with Patton, he's got the soft and lazy disease, which has no cure.

Not feeling too good about the future fellas!

I fear you're right about Patton, but I hope not. As you know, I share your pessimism about the future. I heard someone on NBA radio the other day suggest that the Wolves "pressed the go button to soon," referring to the Butler trade. His point was that Butler will be on the decline when the Warriors finally start to decline and that's especially true when you consider Butler just had all or part of his right knee meniscus removed. There's an argument that the Wolves would have been better off keeping Dunn, LaVine and our #7 draft pick. Dunn brings toughness and defense in a young body with lots of upside. LaVine brings 3-point shooting and ballhandling skills that fit today's NBA along with lots of untapped upside. And although it's reported that the Wolves were going to draft Markkanen, it would have been interesting if they would have traded down a few slots and drafted Mitchell while also getting another asset.
I'm not suggesting that I would have done the things I just mentioned if I had been in charge. But perhaps another, smarter front office would have. There are arguments on both sides.

Another way to come at this issue is to ask yourself the following question. Right now, would you rather be a Wolves fan or a Sixers fan?

I'm still supportive of the move Thibs made to acquire Butler. LaVine and Dunn aren't exactly setting the world on fire in Chicago. The problem is that he has failed to coach the team up defensively and he didn't acquire a legit floor spacer in the offseason.

I wasn't on board with the Butler trade because I thought it was too early for the team, but he is great two way player so i can live with it. What bothers me the most is that Thibs took a team supposedly loaded with young talent, assets and cap space, and two years later we look close to another rebuild.

To date I believe Thibs is responsible for signing Gorgui to a ridiculous 4 year 64 mil deal (which I have been continually critical of if for no other reason than he didn't wait for his RFA year). He signed Cole to a 7 mil/yr deal and never plays him, he traded Ricky and added another 5 mil to get Teague, who is a defensive liability on a team that already sucked on the defensive side of the ball. He signed JC who is another bad defender. He drafted Patton who is also defensively challenged. He rewarded WIg with the 5 year max, a year earlier than he had to. Oh, and lets not forget that he had offered Bazz a deal worth between 8-10 mil that luckily was turned down.

All of the above and we now have a playoff bubble team in cap hell with no high picks and close to the bottom in defense.

What was Thibs good at again????

Fair points. I think by far the #1 thing Thibs has failed at is building a defensive culture. That was the one area people unanimously agreed he could do well. We've seen other coaches take rosters without much turnover and immediately change the culture defensively. Whatever buttons he's been trying to push the last two years (and whatever worked in Chicago) hasn't worked with this squad, plain and simple.