Minnesota Sports Forum

crazy-canuck wrote:got this from reddit and the analysis seems plausible.



I looked into Thibs defensive system pretty heavily last season when I was investigating what we were doing wrong.

This is obviously limited to my understanding of the system, but I am pretty sure it worked because bigs used to not shoot 3s.

In the PnR when the big would "pop" during the heyday of Thibs defensive system with the Bulls they would very seldom pop out to 3 point land, they would pop for a deep 2.

What Thibs did was force the guard to the corner of the floor and if he kicks it to the big who popped then let him have a deep two but the big shows a little to contest. The point was to get the big to pop and not roll to the rim, also not let the guard get an easy layup.

When working properly the ball handler is forced to the corner of the floor and the best shot he should get is a contested 3.

The problem is the bigs these days IMO. When the big pops, they do not stop at the 18 foot mark like they used to, they pop out for 3 and they hit them at a high clip.

So now, the big has to come out even further to get a hand in the face of their man or else its an open 3. Problem with that is that he is no longer able to take away the guards ability to go straight at the rim. There use to be 5-6 feet less of space for bigs to cover in Thibs system because bigs did not use to have the kind of range they do today. The big used to be able to hang back and take away the drive/be deep enough to prevent the ball handler from going baseline to the rim while he is being forced to the corner.

Now the big has to either give up a 3 to the opposing big, or give up a baseline drive if the on-ball guard can't recover from the pick in time.

crazysauce wrote:Did you guys watch the hawks game. Every shot it seems is right by the rim or a wide open three. Just terrible defense too. You cant win that way. Nobody shoots long jumpers against us. Its so bad.

monsterpile wrote:Dunc'd On podcast and maybe another podcast did a similar breakdown of defense and went into Thibs system. One of the guys was a former coach and he said all teams are struggling with defending this new league. He said he doesn't think Thibs system is broken or outdated either and it was right there on a platter he could have said just that.

Now is it possible Thibs genius as a defensive coach isn't really there anymore? Yeah it's possible. I mean Mike Malone was supposed to be a defensive coach and those Nuggets suck big time on D. Jokic has some of the worst FG% around the rim on shots where he is defending innthe entire league.

Is it scheme? Is it coaches getting guys to buy into whatever they are doing more than others? Is it players and lack of talent on that end? This thread is trying to figure it out and many basket all folks are puzzled about this team's lack of defense. I don't think there is a simple answer but some good thoughts here. I personally had concerns that this team may not get to middle of the road statistically as a defensive team even adding Butler and Taj so even though they have been worse than even I have expected it's not a complete shock to me. Next year they need to become a middle of the road defensive team or their need to be a change...and it might not just be a coach.

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Dunc'd On podcast and maybe another podcast did a similar breakdown of defense and went into Thibs system. One of the guys was a former coach and he said all teams are struggling with defending this new league. He said he doesn't think Thibs system is broken or outdated either and it was right there on a platter he could have said just that.

Now is it possible Thibs genius as a defensive coach isn't really there anymore? Yeah it's possible. I mean Mike Malone was supposed to be a defensive coach and those Nuggets suck big time on D. Jokic has some of the worst FG% around the rim on shots where he is defending innthe entire league.

Is it scheme? Is it coaches getting guys to buy into whatever they are doing more than others? Is it players and lack of talent on that end? This thread is trying to figure it out and many basket all folks are puzzled about this team's lack of defense. I don't think there is a simple answer but some good thoughts here. I personally had concerns that this team may not get to middle of the road statistically as a defensive team even adding Butler and Taj so even though they have been worse than even I have expected it's not a complete shock to me. Next year they need to become a middle of the road defensive team or their need to be a change...and it might not just be a coach.

I agree it's not a simple answer. I think it's primarily three things:

1. KAT and Wiggins never had to earn their minutes with defense, starting Day One of their rookie year. These two along with Dieng are the common thread when it comes to being a bottom tier defense.

2. Thibs' coaching. I don't know if it's scheme, minutes distribution, or motivational tactics, but whatever it is he's doing, he has not brought the best out of his players. He's accountable as well.

3. Thibs' GM-ing, specifically signing the worst defender in the league in Jamaal Crawford. I think if Thibs the coach was able to get the most out of KAT, Dieng, Wig, etc., then may be this wouldn't have been so bad.

I'd say 90% of whatever improvement we have made defensively (which isn't much - we've gone from 2nd worst to 4th worst, yay) is due almost solely to Butler and Gibson. The other 10% I'll split between Wiggins and Tyus!

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Dunc'd On podcast and maybe another podcast did a similar breakdown of defense and went into Thibs system. One of the guys was a former coach and he said all teams are struggling with defending this new league. He said he doesn't think Thibs system is broken or outdated either and it was right there on a platter he could have said just that.

Now is it possible Thibs genius as a defensive coach isn't really there anymore? Yeah it's possible. I mean Mike Malone was supposed to be a defensive coach and those Nuggets suck big time on D. Jokic has some of the worst FG% around the rim on shots where he is defending innthe entire league.

Is it scheme? Is it coaches getting guys to buy into whatever they are doing more than others? Is it players and lack of talent on that end? This thread is trying to figure it out and many basket all folks are puzzled about this team's lack of defense. I don't think there is a simple answer but some good thoughts here. I personally had concerns that this team may not get to middle of the road statistically as a defensive team even adding Butler and Taj so even though they have been worse than even I have expected it's not a complete shock to me. Next year they need to become a middle of the road defensive team or their need to be a change...and it might not just be a coach.

I agree it's not a simple answer. I think it's primarily three things:

1. KAT and Wiggins never had to earn their minutes with defense, starting Day One of their rookie year. These two along with Dieng are the common thread when it comes to being a bottom tier defense.

2. Thibs' coaching. I don't know if it's scheme, minutes distribution, or motivational tactics, but whatever it is he's doing, he has not brought the best out of his players. He's accountable as well.

3. Thibs' GM-ing, specifically signing the worst defender in the league in Jamaal Crawford. I think if Thibs the coach was able to get the most out of KAT, Dieng, Wig, etc., then may be this wouldn't have been so bad.

I'd say 90% of whatever improvement we have made defensively (which isn't much - we've gone from 2nd worst to 4th worst, yay) is due almost solely to Butler and Gibson. The other 10% I'll split between Wiggins and Tyus!

I agree with your assessment, Q. But I'll add that we can't discuss the Wolves poor defense without mentioning Jeff Teague. I'd rank him as our second worst defender after Crawford. He made Taylor look like an allstar last night as Taylor scored 20 points on 6-11 shooting. Like Crawford, Teague has a really hard time containing dribble penetration.

Q12543 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Dunc'd On podcast and maybe another podcast did a similar breakdown of defense and went into Thibs system. One of the guys was a former coach and he said all teams are struggling with defending this new league. He said he doesn't think Thibs system is broken or outdated either and it was right there on a platter he could have said just that.

Now is it possible Thibs genius as a defensive coach isn't really there anymore? Yeah it's possible. I mean Mike Malone was supposed to be a defensive coach and those Nuggets suck big time on D. Jokic has some of the worst FG% around the rim on shots where he is defending innthe entire league.

Is it scheme? Is it coaches getting guys to buy into whatever they are doing more than others? Is it players and lack of talent on that end? This thread is trying to figure it out and many basket all folks are puzzled about this team's lack of defense. I don't think there is a simple answer but some good thoughts here. I personally had concerns that this team may not get to middle of the road statistically as a defensive team even adding Butler and Taj so even though they have been worse than even I have expected it's not a complete shock to me. Next year they need to become a middle of the road defensive team or their need to be a change...and it might not just be a coach.

I agree it's not a simple answer. I think it's primarily three things:

1. KAT and Wiggins never had to earn their minutes with defense, starting Day One of their rookie year. These two along with Dieng are the common thread when it comes to being a bottom tier defense.

2. Thibs' coaching. I don't know if it's scheme, minutes distribution, or motivational tactics, but whatever it is he's doing, he has not brought the best out of his players. He's accountable as well.

3. Thibs' GM-ing, specifically signing the worst defender in the league in Jamaal Crawford. I think if Thibs the coach was able to get the most out of KAT, Dieng, Wig, etc., then may be this wouldn't have been so bad.

I'd say 90% of whatever improvement we have made defensively (which isn't much - we've gone from 2nd worst to 4th worst, yay) is due almost solely to Butler and Gibson. The other 10% I'll split between Wiggins and Tyus!

I agree with your assessment, Q. But I'll add that we can't discuss the Wolves poor defense without mentioning Jeff Teague. I'd rank him as our second worst defender after Crawford. He made Taylor look like an allstar last night as Taylor scored 20 points on 6-11 shooting. Like Crawford, Teague has a really hard time containing dribble penetration.

I think Teague runs a little hot and cold defensively and point guards can only do so much. He can kick it into 5th gear on occasion and he's certainly not as bad as Crawford. But I agree overall, he really hasn't helped our defense. Tyus Jones is far more likely to make stuff happen defensively, but then he struggles to put the ball in the hoop.

Crawford is just in his own league of badness....

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Dunc'd On podcast and maybe another podcast did a similar breakdown of defense and went into Thibs system. One of the guys was a former coach and he said all teams are struggling with defending this new league. He said he doesn't think Thibs system is broken or outdated either and it was right there on a platter he could have said just that.

Now is it possible Thibs genius as a defensive coach isn't really there anymore? Yeah it's possible. I mean Mike Malone was supposed to be a defensive coach and those Nuggets suck big time on D. Jokic has some of the worst FG% around the rim on shots where he is defending innthe entire league.

Is it scheme? Is it coaches getting guys to buy into whatever they are doing more than others? Is it players and lack of talent on that end? This thread is trying to figure it out and many basket all folks are puzzled about this team's lack of defense. I don't think there is a simple answer but some good thoughts here. I personally had concerns that this team may not get to middle of the road statistically as a defensive team even adding Butler and Taj so even though they have been worse than even I have expected it's not a complete shock to me. Next year they need to become a middle of the road defensive team or their need to be a change...and it might not just be a coach.

I agree it's not a simple answer. I think it's primarily three things:

1. KAT and Wiggins never had to earn their minutes with defense, starting Day One of their rookie year. These two along with Dieng are the common thread when it comes to being a bottom tier defense.

2. Thibs' coaching. I don't know if it's scheme, minutes distribution, or motivational tactics, but whatever it is he's doing, he has not brought the best out of his players. He's accountable as well.

3. Thibs' GM-ing, specifically signing the worst defender in the league in Jamaal Crawford. I think if Thibs the coach was able to get the most out of KAT, Dieng, Wig, etc., then may be this wouldn't have been so bad.

I'd say 90% of whatever improvement we have made defensively (which isn't much - we've gone from 2nd worst to 4th worst, yay) is due almost solely to Butler and Gibson. The other 10% I'll split between Wiggins and Tyus!

I agree with your assessment, Q. But I'll add that we can't discuss the Wolves poor defense without mentioning Jeff Teague. I'd rank him as our second worst defender after Crawford. He made Taylor look like an allstar last night as Taylor scored 20 points on 6-11 shooting. Like Crawford, Teague has a really hard time containing dribble penetration.

I think Teague runs a little hot and cold defensively and point guards can only do so much. He can kick it into 5th gear on occasion and he's certainly not as bad as Crawford. But I agree overall, he really hasn't helped our defense. Tyus Jones is far more likely to make stuff happen defensively, but then he struggles to put the ball in the hoop.

Crawford is just in his own league of badness....

Yes, Crawford is worse. But looking at advanced stat defensive ratings, Teague is right down there with Crawford - Teague ranked 402 and Crawford 444. Towns is ranked 356, Wiggins 337, Gibson 309, Jones 246 and Butler 215. Rubio is ranked 92 and historically poor defender Kyrie Irving is ranked 132. So the more important question is this: why are historically excellent defenders like Butler and Taj ranked so comparatively low this season? Hmm.