Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

thedoper wrote:I'm not a huge O'Connor fan. Extreme hot take guy as I see it. I like Vernon though. I thought his point about moving Wiggins was interesting. Watch him go to the Spurs and become an all star I guess.

As for Thibs I think the extreme end of the criticism is overblown. I am concerned about minutes and depth. But, all teams play their stars a lot of minutes unless you have the luxury that the Warriors have of having a hall of famer sign under the cap in the one year that was possible. As for our depth, this had to be the year that we had depth issues because of our economics. We had high salary without being maxed out and being able to use any exemptions. This year the big picture is still the same, get this team in the playoffs and make some noise. We grow from there. Until Thibs veers off that course I find it hard to criticize his methodology if it is working.

Doper- I take issue with two of your comments:

"All teams play their stars a lot of minutes". True, but not nearly to the extent Thibs does. I'm sure someone can provide the up to date numbers, but a couple weeks ago he had played his starters 150 minutes more than the second most total...that's absurd! It's one thing to be an outlier, another to be completely out of step with modern coaching rotation philosophy.

"I find it hard to criticize his method if it is working". Again, I would agree IF it were working. But there is evidence...both statistical and eye test...that tells me his philosophy is NOT working. The Wolves set an NBA record last year for most double digit leads blown...I believe it was 23 games. And the trend continues this year despite the addition of Butler, Gibson and Teague. Several posters have noted how exhausted our starters look at the end of games (the Memphis play by play guy noticed it last game), and it's been obvious to me too...especially in games I have attended. Finally, there is the bad body language Jon K and some of us have noted on the court. This isn't unusual for a team that is losing...but to see players acting like they are while having a winning record is evidence that he is losing this team. You might argue that being 14-11 is evidence that his coaching style is working...but many of us here believe they should be more like 17-8 with the talent they have assembled.

It is working means we are in a playoff spot, that was the intention for this season. In the wins prediction thread very few people predicted a 17-8 pace. It seems disingenuous to retroactively make that the expectation and then hold Thibs to that when 1 or 2 people predicted us to win at that pace. For instance, you predicted 46 wins, how are you holding him to an expectation to be way ahead of your prediction? Its a complete removal of any sense of objectivity, and conveniently allows you to always be right. Basically you're saying Thibs hasn't vastly exceeded my expectations, therefore he is horrible and should be fired. I agree that we could have done better in many of these games. But with a unique starting 5 and finding a way to mesh new players we're nowhere near "fire Thibs" land.

To be fair, it's fine to adjust expectations during the season... and consider in-season developments instead of sticking to preseason guesswork.

Likewise, it's time to start adjusting expectations for some of the players too. For example, we might have to assume Wiggins will not be better than Giannis... or even Khris Middleton. KAT might not be the best (or even 3rd best) young big in the game. Et al.

It's funny you mention those guys. Guess who leads the NBA in MPG and guess who is right between Wiggins and Butler?

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

thedoper wrote:I'm not a huge O'Connor fan. Extreme hot take guy as I see it. I like Vernon though. I thought his point about moving Wiggins was interesting. Watch him go to the Spurs and become an all star I guess.

As for Thibs I think the extreme end of the criticism is overblown. I am concerned about minutes and depth. But, all teams play their stars a lot of minutes unless you have the luxury that the Warriors have of having a hall of famer sign under the cap in the one year that was possible. As for our depth, this had to be the year that we had depth issues because of our economics. We had high salary without being maxed out and being able to use any exemptions. This year the big picture is still the same, get this team in the playoffs and make some noise. We grow from there. Until Thibs veers off that course I find it hard to criticize his methodology if it is working.

Doper- I take issue with two of your comments:

"All teams play their stars a lot of minutes". True, but not nearly to the extent Thibs does. I'm sure someone can provide the up to date numbers, but a couple weeks ago he had played his starters 150 minutes more than the second most total...that's absurd! It's one thing to be an outlier, another to be completely out of step with modern coaching rotation philosophy.

"I find it hard to criticize his method if it is working". Again, I would agree IF it were working. But there is evidence...both statistical and eye test...that tells me his philosophy is NOT working. The Wolves set an NBA record last year for most double digit leads blown...I believe it was 23 games. And the trend continues this year despite the addition of Butler, Gibson and Teague. Several posters have noted how exhausted our starters look at the end of games (the Memphis play by play guy noticed it last game), and it's been obvious to me too...especially in games I have attended. Finally, there is the bad body language Jon K and some of us have noted on the court. This isn't unusual for a team that is losing...but to see players acting like they are while having a winning record is evidence that he is losing this team. You might argue that being 14-11 is evidence that his coaching style is working...but many of us here believe they should be more like 17-8 with the talent they have assembled.

It is working means we are in a playoff spot, that was the intention for this season. In the wins prediction thread very few people predicted a 17-8 pace. It seems disingenuous to retroactively make that the expectation and then hold Thibs to that when 1 or 2 people predicted us to win at that pace. For instance, you predicted 46 wins, how are you holding him to an expectation to be way ahead of your prediction? Its a complete removal of any sense of objectivity, and conveniently allows you to always be right. Basically you're saying Thibs hasn't vastly exceeded my expectations, therefore he is horrible and should be fired. I agree that we could have done better in many of these games. But with a unique starting 5 and finding a way to mesh new players we're nowhere near "fire Thibs" land.

To be fair, it's fine to adjust expectations during the season... and consider in-season developments instead of sticking to preseason guesswork.

Likewise, it's time to start adjusting expectations for some of the players too. For example, we might have to assume Wiggins will not be better than Giannis... or even Khris Middleton. KAT might not be the best (or even 3rd best) young big in the game. Et al.

thedoper wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

thedoper wrote:I'm not a huge O'Connor fan. Extreme hot take guy as I see it. I like Vernon though. I thought his point about moving Wiggins was interesting. Watch him go to the Spurs and become an all star I guess.

As for Thibs I think the extreme end of the criticism is overblown. I am concerned about minutes and depth. But, all teams play their stars a lot of minutes unless you have the luxury that the Warriors have of having a hall of famer sign under the cap in the one year that was possible. As for our depth, this had to be the year that we had depth issues because of our economics. We had high salary without being maxed out and being able to use any exemptions. This year the big picture is still the same, get this team in the playoffs and make some noise. We grow from there. Until Thibs veers off that course I find it hard to criticize his methodology if it is working.

Doper- I take issue with two of your comments:

"All teams play their stars a lot of minutes". True, but not nearly to the extent Thibs does. I'm sure someone can provide the up to date numbers, but a couple weeks ago he had played his starters 150 minutes more than the second most total...that's absurd! It's one thing to be an outlier, another to be completely out of step with modern coaching rotation philosophy.

"I find it hard to criticize his method if it is working". Again, I would agree IF it were working. But there is evidence...both statistical and eye test...that tells me his philosophy is NOT working. The Wolves set an NBA record last year for most double digit leads blown...I believe it was 23 games. And the trend continues this year despite the addition of Butler, Gibson and Teague. Several posters have noted how exhausted our starters look at the end of games (the Memphis play by play guy noticed it last game), and it's been obvious to me too...especially in games I have attended. Finally, there is the bad body language Jon K and some of us have noted on the court. This isn't unusual for a team that is losing...but to see players acting like they are while having a winning record is evidence that he is losing this team. You might argue that being 14-11 is evidence that his coaching style is working...but many of us here believe they should be more like 17-8 with the talent they have assembled.

It is working means we are in a playoff spot, that was the intention for this season. In the wins prediction thread very few people predicted a 17-8 pace. It seems disingenuous to retroactively make that the expectation and then hold Thibs to that when 1 or 2 people predicted us to win at that pace. For instance, you predicted 46 wins, how are you holding him to an expectation to be way ahead of your prediction? Its a complete removal of any sense of objectivity, and conveniently allows you to always be right. Basically you're saying Thibs hasn't vastly exceeded my expectations, therefore he is horrible and should be fired. I agree that we could have done better in many of these games. But with a unique starting 5 and finding a way to mesh new players we're nowhere near "fire Thibs" land.

To be fair, it's fine to adjust expectations during the season... and consider in-season developments instead of sticking to preseason guesswork.

Likewise, it's time to start adjusting expectations for some of the players too. For example, we might have to assume Wiggins will not be better than Giannis... or even Khris Middleton. KAT might not be the best (or even 3rd best) young big in the game. Et al.

I think it's fair to change expectations. But all of the sudden judging Thibs as a failure because we're not winning at a 60 win pace seems a little unfair. The bottom line to me is we've been great at home and inconsistent on the road for the most part in the first 3rd of a season with a new roster. If we can maintain or improve on those trends we're going to meet or overshoot most people's win predictions on this board. The angst against Thibs, though there are "canaries in the coalmine", seems a bit overblown in my eyes. Particularly the fire Thibs mantras.

Camden wrote:I guess my question is this: What would appease everyone that says Thibs plays his best players too much? What is it that you want?

Would playing Taj Gibson 30 MPG instead of 33 MPG make a huge difference in terms of W/L? Would playing Bjelica more make him more or less effective?

Would you rather Andrew Wiggins and Jimmy Butler play 33 MPG so Shabazz Muhammad (not even worth rostering) gets more playing time? Would this help or hurt the team? Think about it.

Jeff Teague is playing around his career average and before he got to Minnesota, nobody commented on how he's being overplayed. I guess Tyus Jones has earned more minutes. Sure, throw him some more PT. Does that really change anything?

Should our best player Karl-Anthony Towns stay off the floor for even longer? He's already playing less minutes per game than he did last year. Maybe he should only play 30 MPG like the rest of the stars in the league... Wait, that'd be counterproductive and it straight up doesn't happen.

I just don't understand what it is you all want Thibs to do with his minutes allocation that would actually make any difference. Or is it just something to bitch about?

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

thedoper wrote:I'm not a huge O'Connor fan. Extreme hot take guy as I see it. I like Vernon though. I thought his point about moving Wiggins was interesting. Watch him go to the Spurs and become an all star I guess.

As for Thibs I think the extreme end of the criticism is overblown. I am concerned about minutes and depth. But, all teams play their stars a lot of minutes unless you have the luxury that the Warriors have of having a hall of famer sign under the cap in the one year that was possible. As for our depth, this had to be the year that we had depth issues because of our economics. We had high salary without being maxed out and being able to use any exemptions. This year the big picture is still the same, get this team in the playoffs and make some noise. We grow from there. Until Thibs veers off that course I find it hard to criticize his methodology if it is working.

Doper- I take issue with two of your comments:

"All teams play their stars a lot of minutes". True, but not nearly to the extent Thibs does. I'm sure someone can provide the up to date numbers, but a couple weeks ago he had played his starters 150 minutes more than the second most total...that's absurd! It's one thing to be an outlier, another to be completely out of step with modern coaching rotation philosophy.

"I find it hard to criticize his method if it is working". Again, I would agree IF it were working. But there is evidence...both statistical and eye test...that tells me his philosophy is NOT working. The Wolves set an NBA record last year for most double digit leads blown...I believe it was 23 games. And the trend continues this year despite the addition of Butler, Gibson and Teague. Several posters have noted how exhausted our starters look at the end of games (the Memphis play by play guy noticed it last game), and it's been obvious to me too...especially in games I have attended. Finally, there is the bad body language Jon K and some of us have noted on the court. This isn't unusual for a team that is losing...but to see players acting like they are while having a winning record is evidence that he is losing this team. You might argue that being 14-11 is evidence that his coaching style is working...but many of us here believe they should be more like 17-8 with the talent they have assembled.

It is working means we are in a playoff spot, that was the intention for this season. In the wins prediction thread very few people predicted a 17-8 pace. It seems disingenuous to retroactively make that the expectation and then hold Thibs to that when 1 or 2 people predicted us to win at that pace. For instance, you predicted 46 wins, how are you holding him to an expectation to be way ahead of your prediction? Its a complete removal of any sense of objectivity, and conveniently allows you to always be right. Basically you're saying Thibs hasn't vastly exceeded my expectations, therefore he is horrible and should be fired. I agree that we could have done better in many of these games. But with a unique starting 5 and finding a way to mesh new players we're nowhere near "fire Thibs" land.

To be fair, it's fine to adjust expectations during the season... and consider in-season developments instead of sticking to preseason guesswork.

Likewise, it's time to start adjusting expectations for some of the players too. For example, we might have to assume Wiggins will not be better than Giannis... or even Khris Middleton. KAT might not be the best (or even 3rd best) young big in the game. Et al.

I think it's fair to change expectations. But all of the sudden judging Thibs as a failure because we're not winning at a 60 win pace seems a little unfair. The bottom line to me is we've been great at home and inconsistent on the road for the most part in the first 3rd of a season with a new roster. If we can maintain or improve on those trends we're going to meet or overshoot most people's win predictions on this board. The angst against Thibs, though there are "canaries in the coalmine", seems a bit overblown in my eyes. Particularly the fire Thibs mantras.

Nobody could justify firing Thibs at this point.

But I don't know if many fans are abundantly happy either. And it's not like we're a demanding bunch. I think the perceived regression/plateau of very important young stars is worthy of at least a bit of angst.

thedoper wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

thedoper wrote:

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Nobody could justify firing Thibs at this point.

But I don't know if many fans are abundantly happy either. And it's not like we're a demanding bunch. I think the perceived regression/plateau of very important young stars is worthy of at least a bit of angst.

Fair enough. I pull what's left of my hair out every game. Overall though I'm more happy than not with 14-11. We're competing and winning the majority of games. It has been ugly but to me that means we have an even higher ceiling. But you never know. It could get worse too.

Camden wrote:I guess my question is this: What would appease everyone that says Thibs plays his best players too much? What is it that you want?

Would playing Taj Gibson 30 MPG instead of 33 MPG make a huge difference in terms of W/L? Would playing Bjelica more make him more or less effective?

Would you rather Andrew Wiggins and Jimmy Butler play 33 MPG so Shabazz Muhammad (not even worth rostering) gets more playing time? Would this help or hurt the team? Think about it.

Jeff Teague is playing around his career average and before he got to Minnesota, nobody commented on how he's being overplayed. I guess Tyus Jones has earned more minutes. Sure, throw him some more PT. Does that really change anything?

Should our best player Karl-Anthony Towns stay off the floor for even longer? He's already playing less minutes per game than he did last year. Maybe he should only play 30 MPG like the rest of the stars in the league... Wait, that'd be counterproductive and it straight up doesn't happen.

I just don't understand what it is you all want Thibs to do with his minutes allocation that would actually make any difference. Or is it just something to bitch about?