Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:A major difference between the two franchises. Brown has been their coach through it all. We've had 3 coaches the last 3 years. Continuity is extremely underrated in this league and having the same coach for 3 straight years is huge. 3 coaches in 3 years is usually a death sentence for team performance especially when your core is young and don't know how to really play NBA basketball yet. Philly doesn't have to start from almost scratch every year learning a different play style. They get to build on concepts from the prior year. That's a big deal and underrated on this board just because the patience is running thin.

The consistency with coaching goes both ways though. There are many examples of new coaches coming in and teams getting better immediately. I think it's overrated when you're dealing with a new set of players every season. I'm still a proponent of Players >> Coaching in the NBA.

And what is the demarcation point? Philly regressed to 72 losses last season in Year 3. Does continuity only kick in Year 4?

If so... maybe we owe Kurt Rambis an apology.

How many of those successful new coaches have their 3 best players at 21 years old? Memphis had an all-NBA center and all-star PG. Houston had an MVP candidate and a bunch great veteran role players. Meanwhile LA is worse than us. Orlando and Sacramento are barely better than us. Even NY with established NBA players is a bad team. Your "many" examples are likely heavily outweighed by coaches who walk into situations like ours where they don't have elite established veteran talent so they struggle at first. There's a reason Lebron has gone through so many coaches. They make a big difference. Players matter more than coaches but I think you severely underrate how much of an impact a good coach has on a team.

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:A major difference between the two franchises. Brown has been their coach through it all. We've had 3 coaches the last 3 years. Continuity is extremely underrated in this league and having the same coach for 3 straight years is huge. 3 coaches in 3 years is usually a death sentence for team performance especially when your core is young and don't know how to really play NBA basketball yet. Philly doesn't have to start from almost scratch every year learning a different play style. They get to build on concepts from the prior year. That's a big deal and underrated on this board just because the patience is running thin.

The consistency with coaching goes both ways though. There are many examples of new coaches coming in and teams getting better immediately. I think it's overrated when you're dealing with a new set of players every season. I'm still a proponent of Players >> Coaching in the NBA.

And what is the demarcation point? Philly regressed to 72 losses last season in Year 3. Does continuity only kick in Year 4?

If so... maybe we owe Kurt Rambis an apology.

How many of those successful new coaches have their 3 best players at 21 years old? Memphis had an all-NBA center and all-star PG. Houston had an MVP candidate and a bunch great veteran role players. Meanwhile LA is worse than us. Orlando and Sacramento are barely better than us. Even NY with established NBA players is a bad team. Your "many" examples are likely heavily outweighed by coaches who walk into situations like ours where they don't have elite established veteran talent so they struggle at first. There's a reason Lebron has gone through so many coaches. They make a big difference. Players matter more than coaches but I think you severely underrate how much of an impact a good coach has on a team.

I think you nail it right there though.

Even Blatt was 30 - 10. Mike Brown?

I'm not saying coaching is irrelevant (I actually give coaching a lot more credit than I used to)... I'm simply saying that amid all this coaching talk... the players end up dictating whether the team wins or loses.

Great players are going to win games... regardless of the coach. Even the best coaches need good players to win.

__________________________________

All that being said... the point of the thread is... 10 years in... and we're still not ahead of teams who started rebuilding many, many years later.

Whether that's on ownership. Players. Coaches. Et al. There's value in all those debates and reasoning for it. All I know is that I'm ready for the rebuilding to end.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:A major difference between the two franchises. Brown has been their coach through it all. We've had 3 coaches the last 3 years. Continuity is extremely underrated in this league and having the same coach for 3 straight years is huge. 3 coaches in 3 years is usually a death sentence for team performance especially when your core is young and don't know how to really play NBA basketball yet. Philly doesn't have to start from almost scratch every year learning a different play style. They get to build on concepts from the prior year. That's a big deal and underrated on this board just because the patience is running thin.

The consistency with coaching goes both ways though. There are many examples of new coaches coming in and teams getting better immediately. I think it's overrated when you're dealing with a new set of players every season. I'm still a proponent of Players >> Coaching in the NBA.

And what is the demarcation point? Philly regressed to 72 losses last season in Year 3. Does continuity only kick in Year 4?

If so... maybe we owe Kurt Rambis an apology.

How many of those successful new coaches have their 3 best players at 21 years old? Memphis had an all-NBA center and all-star PG. Houston had an MVP candidate and a bunch great veteran role players. Meanwhile LA is worse than us. Orlando and Sacramento are barely better than us. Even NY with established NBA players is a bad team. Your "many" examples are likely heavily outweighed by coaches who walk into situations like ours where they don't have elite established veteran talent so they struggle at first. There's a reason Lebron has gone through so many coaches. They make a big difference. Players matter more than coaches but I think you severely underrate how much of an impact a good coach has on a team.

I think you nail it right there though.

Even Blatt was 30 - 10. Mike Brown?

I'm not saying coaching is irrelevant (I actually give coaching a lot more credit than I used to)... I'm simply saying that amid all this coaching talk... the players end up dictating whether the team wins or loses.

Great players are going to win games... regardless of the coach. Even the best coaches need good players to win.

__________________________________

All that being said... the point of the thread is... 10 years in... and we're still not ahead of teams who started rebuilding many, many years later.

Whether that's on ownership. Players. Coaches. Et al. There's value in all those debates and reasoning for it. All I know is that I'm ready for the rebuilding to end.

It's not 10 years into rebuilding though. It's less than 3. It's a 12 year playoff drought, but that doesn't mean all 12 years were rebuilding years. In the last 10 years we hit rock bottom in '09/'10 with 15 wins. Kevin Love is in year 2 at that point being held back by Rambis. We go from 15-17-26-31-40 wins in the next 5 years. That's rebuild 1. We failed. We didn't win enough. Love wants out. Rebuild 2 starts in 14/15 when we win 16 games. Then we won 29 last year and we're on pace to win the same this year though recent trends would suggest we'll probably improve on that a little bit. That's the rebuild we're on. It hasn't been 10 years of rebuilding. We went for it with Love and Adelman and Pek and Ricky and just missed. Now we're in year 3 of rebuilding...again... and this rebuild was starting from behind with Flip's death and the chaos that has happened the last 3 years in the organization.

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:A major difference between the two franchises. Brown has been their coach through it all. We've had 3 coaches the last 3 years. Continuity is extremely underrated in this league and having the same coach for 3 straight years is huge. 3 coaches in 3 years is usually a death sentence for team performance especially when your core is young and don't know how to really play NBA basketball yet. Philly doesn't have to start from almost scratch every year learning a different play style. They get to build on concepts from the prior year. That's a big deal and underrated on this board just because the patience is running thin.

The consistency with coaching goes both ways though. There are many examples of new coaches coming in and teams getting better immediately. I think it's overrated when you're dealing with a new set of players every season. I'm still a proponent of Players >> Coaching in the NBA.

And what is the demarcation point? Philly regressed to 72 losses last season in Year 3. Does continuity only kick in Year 4?

If so... maybe we owe Kurt Rambis an apology.

How many of those successful new coaches have their 3 best players at 21 years old? Memphis had an all-NBA center and all-star PG. Houston had an MVP candidate and a bunch great veteran role players. Meanwhile LA is worse than us. Orlando and Sacramento are barely better than us. Even NY with established NBA players is a bad team. Your "many" examples are likely heavily outweighed by coaches who walk into situations like ours where they don't have elite established veteran talent so they struggle at first. There's a reason Lebron has gone through so many coaches. They make a big difference. Players matter more than coaches but I think you severely underrate how much of an impact a good coach has on a team.

I think you nail it right there though.

Even Blatt was 30 - 10. Mike Brown?

I'm not saying coaching is irrelevant (I actually give coaching a lot more credit than I used to)... I'm simply saying that amid all this coaching talk... the players end up dictating whether the team wins or loses.

Great players are going to win games... regardless of the coach. Even the best coaches need good players to win.

__________________________________

All that being said... the point of the thread is... 10 years in... and we're still not ahead of teams who started rebuilding many, many years later.

Whether that's on ownership. Players. Coaches. Et al. There's value in all those debates and reasoning for it. All I know is that I'm ready for the rebuilding to end.

It's not 10 years into rebuilding though. It's less than 3. It's a 12 year playoff drought, but that doesn't mean all 12 years were rebuilding years. In the last 10 years we hit rock bottom in '09/'10 with 15 wins. Kevin Love is in year 2 at that point being held back by Rambis. We go from 15-17-26-31-40 wins in the next 5 years. That's rebuild 1. We failed. We didn't win enough. Love wants out. Rebuild 2 starts in 14/15 when we win 16 games. Then we won 29 last year and we're on pace to win the same this year though recent trends would suggest we'll probably improve on that a little bit. That's the rebuild we're on. It hasn't been 10 years of rebuilding. We went for it with Love and Adelman and Pek and Ricky and just missed. Now we're in year 3 of rebuilding...again... and this rebuild was starting from behind with Flip's death and the chaos that has happened the last 3 years in the organization.

Again... that's my point. Our rebuilds keep failing. The team hasn't even reached .500 for chrissakes. And they keep falling back to the bottom. I'm sick of failed rebuilds. I've seen a lot of them with this franchise.

The 76ers passed the Wolves again in the standings. And they're doing it without Joel Embiid even in uniform for the past 3 weeks.

The Lakers will tank even harder to keep their pick.
The Magic are going "all in" on the post Dwight rebuild now after some extremely puzzling decisions.
The Nets suck.
Phoenix will tank more by sitting Bledsoe, Chandler, et al down the stretch.
And I assume Philly shuts down Embiid for good maybe as soon as next week.

Then, there's the Wolves. Will the Wolves' latest rebuild be faster than the rest of those teams?

The Sixers have been building a defensive culture. Embiid supercharged it when he played, but the rest of the guys can hold their own.

Covington is a guy we need to take a look at this offseason. His shot isn't falling this year, but he has a solid body of work on 3's that goes back a few years. More importantly, he's a "do shit" small forward that can defend, rebound, and get deflections.

I'm more convinced than ever that Wiggins needs to be our starting 2 and paired with a stronger defensive wing that will take on the toughest defensive assignments. LaVine's ACL tear opens the door to this possibility more so than ever.

Q12543 wrote:The Sixers have been building a defensive culture. Embiid supercharged it when he played, but the rest of the guys can hold their own.

Covington is a guy we need to take a look at this offseason. His shot isn't falling this year, but he has a solid body of work on 3's that goes back a few years. More importantly, he's a "do shit" small forward that can defend, rebound, and get deflections.

I'm more convinced than ever that Wiggins needs to be our starting 2 and paired with a stronger defensive wing that will take on the toughest defensive assignments. LaVine's ACL tear opens the door to this possibility more so than ever.

I didn't quite understand why 76ers fans were booing him so much earlier this season. Yes... his shot is erratic. But he really seems like a decent enough player who can do multiple things and defend.

The 76ers have a team option on him for next season. ($1M... !!!!)

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:The Sixers have been building a defensive culture. Embiid supercharged it when he played, but the rest of the guys can hold their own.

Covington is a guy we need to take a look at this offseason. His shot isn't falling this year, but he has a solid body of work on 3's that goes back a few years. More importantly, he's a "do shit" small forward that can defend, rebound, and get deflections.

I'm more convinced than ever that Wiggins needs to be our starting 2 and paired with a stronger defensive wing that will take on the toughest defensive assignments. LaVine's ACL tear opens the door to this possibility more so than ever.

I didn't quite understand why 76ers fans were booing him so much earlier this season. Yes... his shot is erratic. But he really seems like a decent enough player who can do multiple things and defend.

The 76ers have a team option on him for next season. ($1M... !!!!)

There are a few others....PJ Tucker, Iguodala, Gay....all at varying price points, but free agents nonetheless. I know Gay's future is cloudy too and he hasn't been known in the past as a "stopper", but I wonder if he is at a stage in his career where taking a more niche specialized role could breath new life into him. Let KAT and Wig carry the load offensively and he just worries about defending, rebounding, and playing off of others, like a younger version of Vince Carter or Richard Jefferson.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:The Sixers have been building a defensive culture. Embiid supercharged it when he played, but the rest of the guys can hold their own.

Covington is a guy we need to take a look at this offseason. His shot isn't falling this year, but he has a solid body of work on 3's that goes back a few years. More importantly, he's a "do shit" small forward that can defend, rebound, and get deflections.

I'm more convinced than ever that Wiggins needs to be our starting 2 and paired with a stronger defensive wing that will take on the toughest defensive assignments. LaVine's ACL tear opens the door to this possibility more so than ever.

I didn't quite understand why 76ers fans were booing him so much earlier this season. Yes... his shot is erratic. But he really seems like a decent enough player who can do multiple things and defend.

The 76ers have a team option on him for next season. ($1M... !!!!)

Might be the same reason we all hate peeler back then. He is decent enough but we just hate that we have no better option then that we took it out on him.

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:The Sixers have been building a defensive culture. Embiid supercharged it when he played, but the rest of the guys can hold their own.

Covington is a guy we need to take a look at this offseason. His shot isn't falling this year, but he has a solid body of work on 3's that goes back a few years. More importantly, he's a "do shit" small forward that can defend, rebound, and get deflections.

I'm more convinced than ever that Wiggins needs to be our starting 2 and paired with a stronger defensive wing that will take on the toughest defensive assignments. LaVine's ACL tear opens the door to this possibility more so than ever.

I didn't quite understand why 76ers fans were booing him so much earlier this season. Yes... his shot is erratic. But he really seems like a decent enough player who can do multiple things and defend.

The 76ers have a team option on him for next season. ($1M... !!!!)

There are a few others....PJ Tucker, Iguodala, Gay....all at varying price points, but free agents nonetheless. I know Gay's future is cloudy too and he hasn't been known in the past as a "stopper", but I wonder if he is at a stage in his career where taking a more niche specialized role could breath new life into him. Let KAT and Wig carry the load offensively and he just worries about defending, rebounding, and playing off of others, like a younger version of Vince Carter or Richard Jefferson.

Jefferson was always a good defender and Vince is a rarity of a star that works his butt off willing to just be a guy in the league. Gay once back should be a better overall player than those old dudes. Let's remember this though Gay might not be back to his old form for quite a while. Hell Matthews isn't back to what he was and he was a younger more worthwhile player. That could make Gay cheap though idk but it's hard to want to sign a guy like that to help fill in when you have another guy that's hurt in Lavine and you need to evaluate things somewhat quickly.

I saw this in an ESPN article today and I immediately thought of this thread.

"We gush over Houston's ability to reload without bottoming out, but Indiana did the same thing; they haven't won fewer than 32 games since 1989!"