Minnesota Sports Forum

Well, you all got me curious now on our 5-man unit's defensive rating compared to other 5-man units (that actually played a lot of minutes together):

Rubio-LaVine-Wiggins-Gorgui-KAT
Minutes played together = 648
Defensive Rating = 109.6

Irving-James-Love-Smith-Thompson
Minutes played together - 465
Defensive Rating = 102.8

Adams-Durant-Ibaka-Roberson-Westbrook
Minutes played together = 816
Defensive Rating = 95.6

Curry-Thompson-Barnes-Green-Bogut
Minutes played together - 552
Defensive rating - 96.2

Paul-Redick-Pierce-Jordan-Mbah Moute
Minutes played together - 375
Defensive rating - 98.3

Teague-Korver-Bazemore-Horford-Millsap
Minutes played together - 892
Defensive rating - 100.5


We have a looooooong ways to go. I think what I find striking - and LST especially will be chagrined by this - is the fact that a Cleveland lineup with Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving in it crushed the Wolves defensively and hang pretty solidly with the other elite teams as well (their offensive rating is through the roof by the way - 115.3 - better than any starting unit in the league).

To LST's point, it seems like we have the raw ingredients to be much, much better. I would say the one raw ingredient missing is brute strength - our guys have problems fighting over screens and dealing with much stronger players in the paint.

...the other thing I'll add is that I included Atlanta to prove that you don't need elite length/shotblockers to be a good defensive unit. Horford and Millsap is a somewhat undersized front court, but their mobility and smarts more than make up for it. Heck, even Thompson and Love are kind of shrimpy relative to some other C/PF combinations, but they are very good on the glass and are tough to back down in the paint.

Q12543 wrote:(I'll avoid posting defensive stats. Thibs is hopefully the elixir that cures what ails us).

Q you promised not to post these stats and then you did it. How can I ever trust again? I'll go listen to some Kelly Clarkson maybe that will help.

Q12543 wrote:...the other thing I'll add is that I included Atlanta to prove that you don't need elite length/shotblockers to be a good defensive unit. Horford and Millsap is a somewhat undersized front court, but their mobility and smarts more than make up for it. Heck, even Thompson and Love are kind of shrimpy relative to some other C/PF combinations, but they are very good on the glass and are tough to back down in the paint.

yet the best defensive unit in your list got Adams and Ibaka. And both Hawks and Cavs units are north of 100 which is not elite, though much better than Wolves 109 atrocity.

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:

Q12543 wrote:...the other thing I'll add is that I included Atlanta to prove that you don't need elite length/shotblockers to be a good defensive unit. Horford and Millsap is a somewhat undersized front court, but their mobility and smarts more than make up for it. Heck, even Thompson and Love are kind of shrimpy relative to some other C/PF combinations, but they are very good on the glass and are tough to back down in the paint.

yet the best defensive unit in your list got Adams and Ibaka. And both Hawks and Cavs units are north of 100 which is not elite, though much better than Wolves 109 atrocity.

Right...My only point is that you can have a very good defense without an elite rim protector. But yeah, it definitely helps. Utah, which I didn't mention, also had a very strong unit when Gobert was on the floor. Lucky for us, while KAT may not quite be at the level of Gobert or DeAndre Jordan, he's not far off. And offensively, he's on a totally different level than most centers in the NBA already.

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:(I'll avoid posting defensive stats. Thibs is hopefully the elixir that cures what ails us).

Q you promised not to post these stats and then you did it. How can I ever trust again? I'll go listen to some Kelly Clarkson maybe that will help.

Whatever floats your boat Monster!

Yeah, the numbers are ugly. But, I've always maintained that a coach has more influence on a defense than on an offense and we have previously cited examples on this board of rosters hardly changing the composition of its players, yet a new coach bringing dramatic change to its defense. The Steve Clifford example in Charlotte might be the most stunning coach-driven turnarounds I've seen.

monsterpile wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Thanks for posting Bleed.

In the 59th game of last season, Zach LaVine started at SG and continued to do so the rest of the way. As a team, our offensive rating was 12th best in the NBA between game 59 and game 82, so that matches up quite well with the prediction you posted. HOWEVER, that was our total team rating, bench included.

If you isolate 5-man units for the season, here is a tantalizing comparison:

Westbrook-Durant-Roberson-Adams-Ibaka
Minutes played together = 816
Offensive Rating = 113.3

Curry-Thompson-Barnes-Green-Bogut
Minutes played together = 552
Offensive rating = 109.2

Rubio-LaVine-Wiggins-Gorgui-KAT
Minutes played together = 648
Offensive rating = 113.5

Scoring will not be a problem for this team......

Very interesting - thanx for for posting.

The article was an interesting read I am glad it was posted.

Q your comment on the Wolves not having a problem scoring (I agree) and the comments made in the article about the Kings specifically Rudy Gay remind me of a Facebook conversation I had with a college friend that is a Kings fan. He was asking what I thought about the Gay for Rubio rumors (sigh) and we ended up going back and forth about Gay. He thinks Gay is terrific clutch all kinds of delusional things and thought he would be great for the wolves. Ots funny how a player on your own team is so great but you want the best for him so you are willing to trade him to another team. Maybe he just really wants Rubio. One thing I told him was we didn't need another scorer. Another friend came in and commented "Gay is Josh Smith Jr." That made me chuckle but it was an interesting comp even though they bring different strengths to the floor.

I once had a facebook conversation with some of my friends and one of them said that Josh Smith was Gay. I thought he meant something completely different.

Q12543 wrote:Well, you all got me curious now on our 5-man unit's defensive rating compared to other 5-man units (that actually played a lot of minutes together):

Rubio-LaVine-Wiggins-Gorgui-KAT
Minutes played together = 648
Defensive Rating = 109.6

Irving-James-Love-Smith-Thompson
Minutes played together - 465
Defensive Rating = 102.8

Adams-Durant-Ibaka-Roberson-Westbrook
Minutes played together = 816
Defensive Rating = 95.6

Curry-Thompson-Barnes-Green-Bogut
Minutes played together - 552
Defensive rating - 96.2

Paul-Redick-Pierce-Jordan-Mbah Moute
Minutes played together - 375
Defensive rating - 98.3

Teague-Korver-Bazemore-Horford-Millsap
Minutes played together - 892
Defensive rating - 100.5


We have a looooooong ways to go. I think what I find striking - and LST especially will be chagrined by this - is the fact that a Cleveland lineup with Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving in it crushed the Wolves defensively and hang pretty solidly with the other elite teams as well (their offensive rating is through the roof by the way - 115.3 - better than any starting unit in the league).

To LST's point, it seems like we have the raw ingredients to be much, much better. I would say the one raw ingredient missing is brute strength - our guys have problems fighting over screens and dealing with much stronger players in the paint.

I don't know that I have ever admired LeBron James more than at this very moment. Is there any load too heavy for him to carry?

Mr. Brightside wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Thanks for posting Bleed.

In the 59th game of last season, Zach LaVine started at SG and continued to do so the rest of the way. As a team, our offensive rating was 12th best in the NBA between game 59 and game 82, so that matches up quite well with the prediction you posted. HOWEVER, that was our total team rating, bench included.

If you isolate 5-man units for the season, here is a tantalizing comparison:

Westbrook-Durant-Roberson-Adams-Ibaka
Minutes played together = 816
Offensive Rating = 113.3

Curry-Thompson-Barnes-Green-Bogut
Minutes played together = 552
Offensive rating = 109.2

Rubio-LaVine-Wiggins-Gorgui-KAT
Minutes played together = 648
Offensive rating = 113.5

Scoring will not be a problem for this team......

Wow. Great research. With the Thibs effect on defense, there's no reason the Wolves should not make the playoffs this year.

I'd be interested in people's thoughts on how much our offensive rating will take a hit based on different style of play and different focus under Thibs. We clearly have some pretty talented offensive players, but I do wonder how much we'll be compromising that for a focus on improved defence. Overall, I expect us to be a much improved team this season, but I think almost nothing would surprise me in terms of offensive and defensive rankings.

Shumway, I expect that the high-powered offense we saw from the 5-man starting unit we had to end the season may take a slight hit. Thibs hates turnovers and values defensive rebounding. Yet when you try to play at a fairly high pace of play you may leak out a guy early, thus having one less person to chase down a defensive rebound. Or Rubio may try to make a homerun pass. How many times did we see Rubio hit LaVine or Wiggins downcourt in perfect stride seconds after gaining possession? Occasionally, those passes ended up out of bounds or right into the hands of the opponent. Sometimes we gave up too many 2nd chance points.

We'll see how much Thibs pulls the reigns back on our pace of play, as we aren't optimally suited to play a grinding half-court offense as efficiently as a more open court game (IMO). Hopefully he strikes the right balance and takes advantage of the strengths of the team.