CoolBreeze44 wrote:I have to step in here and say this unfortunately - Good God he's only 20 years old.
This is true. And that's why most of us view Wiggins through rose-hued glasses. He has time to evolve as a player and improve to where he's a key guy on a playoff team. Or, an All Star. Or, even an elite player. It's going to be a bumpy ride, with peaks and valleys.
I'm cool with all that as long as I see that growth and development from one year to the next. Or even from one stretch of games to the next until we have a better idea where he's at -- and where he's going. It's early, so we'll see where this season takes us.
He's a 20ppg guy in the NBA right now. That's pretty cool for a 20-year-old. One negative is that his rebounding is down to only 3 per game. That's a drop from last season. Maybe it's an anomaly. If it's not, any area where a future possible superstar regresses should be discussed as an area for improvement.
The Wolves have been one of the betterbetter rebounding teams in the league. Wiggins is playing alongside KAT and KG/Belly, that alone will minimize a 2s rebounding opportunities.
Small picture his rebound numbers are down. Big picture his role and quality of teammate is way up. Situation matters.
A lot of lockdown wing defenders end up having lower rebound numbers because they are concentrating on that guy. That doesn't explain all of Wiggins lower rebounding numbers than we expect but it could explain a little bit of it especially if he continues down the road of a guy that is a top level player but cares as much about being a lockdown guy every defensive possession as much as any other aspect of the game. A lot of top NBA players end up taking a bit of a break to let other guys do some of that work while still being very good at defense.
I gotta see more tangible evidence of Wiggins as a "lockdown" or "elite" defender.
I think he's solid. And he has the potential to be really good. But the narrative on this site seems to be that he's already there on that end of the court. Are we certain he's THAT good already?
AbeVigodaLive wrote:I gotta see more tangible evidence of Wiggins as a "lockdown" or "elite" defender.
I think he's solid. And he has the potential to be really good. But the narrative on this site seems to be that he's already there on that end of the court. Are we certain he's THAT good already?
Lowe also seemed to make the suggestion Wiggins was going down that road.
To clarify my above post it was that Wiggins seems to be taking on the role (putting in the effort/responsibility) of being that type of defender. I agree I don't think he is there yet but there are promising signs. If he was a late 1st round pick or whatever picked for his defense and in his 2nd season at the age of 23 or something I think we would be fairly happy with his defense. In Wiggins case he is a potential superstar player at the age of 20 that seems to have a great deal of interest and done good things that shows promise in that area. That shouldn't be overlooked but yeah he hasn't arrived yet.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:I gotta see more tangible evidence of Wiggins as a "lockdown" or "elite" defender.
I think he's solid. And he has the potential to be really good. But the narrative on this site seems to be that he's already there on that end of the court. Are we certain he's THAT good already?
I agree, although I do think he's overall a plus-defender. But I wouldn't put him as elite yet. Plus he doesn't always guard the opponents' best wing. That's why they have Tayshaun Prince starting, so that they can save Wiggins' energy more for offense.
If Wiggins stays at the 2, then his rebounding stats no longer matter. Playing 2 puts you 4th on the ladder of rebounds and actually probably 5th because you are supposed to get out in transition while the PG goes back to get the ball so he is typically in better rebounding position. Really the only thing that matters as a two is scoring a lot efficiently and defending. It's even tough telling him to get more assists because I want him drawing the foul when he goes to the basket for the +1. I don't want him dumping the ball off a bunch when his 44" vert makes him a nightmare to try to stop at the rim. 2's really get their assists from secondary PnR action and coming off screens and immediately trying to play the 2 on 1 the screen creates. So he should try to at least get to 3-4 APG's on that action. That's really all he should be expected to do as a 2 though. 20/3/3 with great defense at age 20. Since he doesn't have the handle to be a primary ball handler those stats are where he should be as a 2. There's only 5 SG's in the league averaging more than 5 RPG's and 6 averaging 4 or more APG's. D Wade is probably tops as an all-around 2 with a career average of 24/6/5. Kobe is right behind him at 25/5/5. That's sort of the cap you put on Wiggins at the 2 and they were both much better ball handlers than Wiggins is now. Two of the best two's of all-time only gave you 5-6 assists and 5 boards at the same time. Their role was to score.
But you're throwing out 5 rebounds as the barometer. That's one way to look at it. But with stats, there's always another way...
Wiggins is at 3.1 rpg per 34 minutes. Right now only Eric Gordon, Jordan Clarkson and Jerryd Bayless average fewer rebounds with more than 30 mpg. And I think Wiggins has each of those guys by about 4 or 5 inches. Isn't that one of the advantages of having him as a "big" 2?
[Note: Personally, I'd love to see Wiggins do a bit more on that end. But I think the paltry numbers so far are more of a sign of an early season blip more than anything. I think they'll improve.]
But you're throwing out 5 rebounds as the barometer. That's one way to look at it. But with stats, there's always another way...
Wiggins is at 3.1 rpg per 34 minutes. Right now only Eric Gordon, Jordan Clarkson and Jerryd Bayless average fewer rebounds with more than 30 mpg. And I think Wiggins has each of those guys by about 4 or 5 inches. Isn't that one of the advantages of having him as a "big" 2?
[Note: Personally, I'd love to see Wiggins do a bit more on that end. But I think the paltry numbers so far are more of a sign of an early season blip more than anything. I think they'll improve.]
I threw out the barometer based on how many guys are actually accomplishing it regardless of minutes. If only 5 guys average more than 5 boards and 6 guys (two guys tied for 5th) average 4 or more assists than that is the top level in the league for the 2. It's not reasonable with those benchmarks to say for example Wiggins should be averaging 7 boards a game as a 2 because he's one of the tallest in the league at his position. I don't think anybody is arguing Wiggins is a top 5 SG in the league right now so I don't expect him to be in either of those categories at a top 5 level. I think we all want him to improve there, but at the end of the day we're talking 2 more RPG's puts him top 5 in the league for his position. 2 more assists puts him top 5 in the league for assists at his position. That seems to be a pretty small gap to get too worked up over.
But you're throwing out 5 rebounds as the barometer. That's one way to look at it. But with stats, there's always another way...
Wiggins is at 3.1 rpg per 34 minutes. Right now only Eric Gordon, Jordan Clarkson and Jerryd Bayless average fewer rebounds with more than 30 mpg. And I think Wiggins has each of those guys by about 4 or 5 inches. Isn't that one of the advantages of having him as a "big" 2?
[Note: Personally, I'd love to see Wiggins do a bit more on that end. But I think the paltry numbers so far are more of a sign of an early season blip more than anything. I think they'll improve.]
I threw out the barometer based on how many guys are actually accomplishing it regardless of minutes. If only 5 guys average more than 5 boards and 6 guys (two guys tied for 5th) average 4 or more assists than that is the top level in the league for the 2. It's not reasonable with those benchmarks to say for example Wiggins should be averaging 7 boards a game as a 2 because he's one of the tallest in the league at his position. I don't think anybody is arguing Wiggins is a top 5 SG in the league right now so I don't expect him to be in either of those categories at a top 5 level. I think we all want him to improve there, but at the end of the day we're talking 2 more RPG's puts him top 5 in the league for his position. 2 more assists puts him top 5 in the league for assists at his position. That seems to be a pretty small gap to get too worked up over.
Again... that's one way of looking at it.
The other is that he's one of the very worst in the league for starters at the 2 (wing) for rebounding (so far).
But you're throwing out 5 rebounds as the barometer. That's one way to look at it. But with stats, there's always another way...
Wiggins is at 3.1 rpg per 34 minutes. Right now only Eric Gordon, Jordan Clarkson and Jerryd Bayless average fewer rebounds with more than 30 mpg. And I think Wiggins has each of those guys by about 4 or 5 inches. Isn't that one of the advantages of having him as a "big" 2?
[Note: Personally, I'd love to see Wiggins do a bit more on that end. But I think the paltry numbers so far are more of a sign of an early season blip more than anything. I think they'll improve.]
I threw out the barometer based on how many guys are actually accomplishing it regardless of minutes. If only 5 guys average more than 5 boards and 6 guys (two guys tied for 5th) average 4 or more assists than that is the top level in the league for the 2. It's not reasonable with those benchmarks to say for example Wiggins should be averaging 7 boards a game as a 2 because he's one of the tallest in the league at his position. I don't think anybody is arguing Wiggins is a top 5 SG in the league right now so I don't expect him to be in either of those categories at a top 5 level. I think we all want him to improve there, but at the end of the day we're talking 2 more RPG's puts him top 5 in the league for his position. 2 more assists puts him top 5 in the league for assists at his position. That seems to be a pretty small gap to get too worked up over.
Again... that's one way of looking at it.
The other is that he's one of the very worst in the league for starters at the 2 (wing) for rebounding (so far).
Well one of the worst in the league is 2 RPG's away from top 5 in the league so is it that big of a deal? Is 2 rebounds per game that significant if it's the difference between top 5 and bottom 5? That says to me that it's not that big of a deal if he's at the bottom, yet also so close to the top.
But you're throwing out 5 rebounds as the barometer. That's one way to look at it. But with stats, there's always another way...
Wiggins is at 3.1 rpg per 34 minutes. Right now only Eric Gordon, Jordan Clarkson and Jerryd Bayless average fewer rebounds with more than 30 mpg. And I think Wiggins has each of those guys by about 4 or 5 inches. Isn't that one of the advantages of having him as a "big" 2?
[Note: Personally, I'd love to see Wiggins do a bit more on that end. But I think the paltry numbers so far are more of a sign of an early season blip more than anything. I think they'll improve.]
I threw out the barometer based on how many guys are actually accomplishing it regardless of minutes. If only 5 guys average more than 5 boards and 6 guys (two guys tied for 5th) average 4 or more assists than that is the top level in the league for the 2. It's not reasonable with those benchmarks to say for example Wiggins should be averaging 7 boards a game as a 2 because he's one of the tallest in the league at his position. I don't think anybody is arguing Wiggins is a top 5 SG in the league right now so I don't expect him to be in either of those categories at a top 5 level. I think we all want him to improve there, but at the end of the day we're talking 2 more RPG's puts him top 5 in the league for his position. 2 more assists puts him top 5 in the league for assists at his position. That seems to be a pretty small gap to get too worked up over.
Again... that's one way of looking at it.
The other is that he's one of the very worst in the league for starters at the 2 (wing) for rebounding (so far).
Well one of the worst in the league is 2 RPG's away from top 5 in the league so is it that big of a deal? Is 2 rebounds per game that significant if it's the difference between top 5 and bottom 5? That says to me that it's not that big of a deal if he's at the bottom, yet also so close to the top.
It's not an entirely different argument than saying "is 36% shooting really that different than 44% shooting? It's really only like one more made shot per game."
