The case for Zach Lavine at PG

[SameOldNudityDrew]

I just don't see it.

He can't effectively run an offense and make plays for others. He's proven that for over a year now. Playing him at the point hurts everybody on the team offensively. That is not worth making life a little easier for him on the defensive end. And frankly, his defense on PGs isn't that good either. Yes he has the defensive tools, length and quickness, but he needs to learn how to use them. Tyus and Miller are not very good defenders at the point, but their ability to run the offense and get everyone involved is needed when Rubio isn't on the floor.

Bottom line, the defensive upgrade of LaVine over Tyus at the point doesn't come close to outweighing the offensive upgrade of having a real PG and playing LaVine at his most logical and effective offensive position: SG.

[Monster]

LST lays it out here and it makes sense IF:

-Sam says defense is the most important thing

-Rebounding is a big deal

Zach most night has to be better defensively than the other backup PGs because of his length and athletic ability. Jones got lit up by everyone except one fellow rookie. Miller is crafty but doesn't have the physical gifts. How much erred defensively will Zach be as the backup PG? Idk we will see but in general it will be better overall

It would be preferable to play Zach at SG for all the reasons everyone has stated and my guess is we will see that happen a decent chink of the time because ultimately I believe in Zach and the Wolves believe in him as well. Him playing as The backup PG is likely a temporary deal. Wolves fans need to accept that there will be plenty of fluidity of the rotation this year. That makes absolute sense to me based on the roster. It's gonna be maddening for both fans and the coaching staff to make sense of it all.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

interesting fact is though that Lavine had 10.6PER at PG and allowed 19.5 PER for opponent, however at SG he had 13.3PER at SG and held opponents to nice 11.8PER, so your argument is not valid and playing Lavine anywhere else than SG is completely and utterly stupid as that is more 10 PER difference, so even 52yo guy with no stat/math background should get this one

Persuasive numbers, m4gor, and they certainly make a compelling case. But I think we all know defensive stats are as dirty as statistics can be, and often have as much to do with the guys on the court with you as they do with your own individual defense. Ricky Rubio helps everyone's defensive numbers, and Zach was able to play next to him at times in February. Conversely, the collection of players he was with when he had to play PG was a joke...nobody could show a good defensive PER with those guys, and especially a 19-year-old that wasn't at all ready to play the point. Your point is still well-taken though...he looked better on defense last year at SG than at PG, and on offense too. It's a much easier position to play. I'm behind Sam, though, in rolling the dice and seeing if this guy can thrive at PG.

[m4gor [enjin:6667447]]

interesting fact is though that Lavine had 10.6PER at PG and allowed 19.5 PER for opponent, however at SG he had 13.3PER at SG and held opponents to nice 11.8PER, so your argument is not valid and playing Lavine anywhere else than SG is completely and utterly stupid as that is more 10 PER difference, so even 52yo guy with no stat/math background should get this one

How far did you dig into those numbers?

it is from here http://www.82games.com/1415/14MIN4.HTM
look if there would not be this huge difference i would not bring that here, i have a degree in math so i understand what sample sizes are for and what statisticaly sound difference looks like

[Monster]

You make some good points, khans, and reflect the prevailing opinion on this board about Zach at PG. Perhaps my impressions of Zach at PG are colored by the one preseason game I was able to attend, where he was terrific at PG both offensively and defensively. But I agree that he was neither in the Laker game and looked better the 4 minutes he was playing next to Ricky...it's a much easier role offensively.

Your question about whether any advantage Zach might have defensively over Miller and Jones can possibly make up for their superiority in running an offense is a good one, and I think captures exactly how Mitchell is evaluating the situation. But I think he is committed to Wig at the 2, and that makes him committed to Zach at PG for the time being. But if Zach doesn't show he can prevent penetration by his man and show a little more offensive ability, I think his next move will be out of the rotation rather than back to SG, with either Miller or Jones backing up Ricky. But I continue to think we don't know what this 20-year-old can eventually be with more experience at the point , and that Sam's experiment will pay off.

Ricky is signed for 5 years at the PG position. Why do we want Zach to become a PG? He'd provide a lot more value to the team becoming the starting 2 moving forward than being stuck on the bench behind Ricky. He has the skills and physical makeup and we have a long-term spot at the 2 available. Why are we not just putting the square peg in the square hole instead of trying to jam it down the circular hole? It seems like a lot of time is being wasted having him develop as a PG that frankly just doesn't have to be wasted.

It all depends on whether how one feels about Zach as a starter down the road. I think he could be an adequate SG for us, but I see more promise for a Wiggins/Bazz pairing than a Wiggins/Zach pairing. And I see's Zach's best role as a versatile combo guard off the bench. If Tyus turns out to be a very good NBA PG, I would be comfortable with Zach backing up Wig at the 2, but we don't know if Tyus will ever have the size or athleticism to fell that role. But I'm convinced that right now Zach is a better option backing up Ricky than Tyus. There will be some difficult nights for Zach like Wednesday, but with the commitment to Wig at the 2 which I highly endorse, his best chance for getting the minutes he needs to learn the NBA game is at PG.

Good take but if the Lakers game was a "difficult" game for him then good news because he was up and down but there were plenty of positives there. Sam has taken a step back and said he isn't saying what all the young guys are or aren't. That seems to make a lot of sense to me.

[Monster]

interesting fact is though that Lavine had 10.6PER at PG and allowed 19.5 PER for opponent, however at SG he had 13.3PER at SG and held opponents to nice 11.8PER, so your argument is not valid and playing Lavine anywhere else than SG is completely and utterly stupid as that is more 10 PER difference, so even 52yo guy with no stat/math background should get this one

How far did you dig into those numbers?

it is from here http://www.82games.com/1415/14MIN4.HTM
look if there would not be this huge difference i would not bring that here, i have a degree in math so i understand what sample sizes are for and what statisticaly sound difference looks like

Ok well now my expectation for you digging into those numbers with a detailed explanation has raised significantly!!! I've seen the webpage before I posted my earlier question. I am waiting :)

[60WinTim]

But what about Bazz? A fair argument can be made that Bazz/Wiggins is a more likely starting duo in the future than Zach/Wiggins. If that is true, it is more important for Bazz to get wing minutes than Zach.

I have embraced Sam's approach of allowing his two top youngsters to cut their teeth together along with vets who know how to play and can help them cut their teeth. No need to hinder their development by throwing other youngsters in the mix who may not be ready, or may take away from the focus of developing Wiggins and Towns.

Zach is forced to develop as a combo guard for now. But that's the way the pieces fall together with the priority being Wiggins and Towns. Wing minutes will come for Zach, especially when teams go smaller, like happened against the Lakers.

Some of you are projecting the young kids futures and demanding that the "projected future" be put into place now so it can develop. What if that "projected future" doesn't pan out? Prioritizing and focusing on the development of each youngster individually makes a lot more sense to me.

[Edit: Oops! I see LST has already made this argument... ]

[m4gor [enjin:6667447]]

interesting fact is though that Lavine had 10.6PER at PG and allowed 19.5 PER for opponent, however at SG he had 13.3PER at SG and held opponents to nice 11.8PER, so your argument is not valid and playing Lavine anywhere else than SG is completely and utterly stupid as that is more 10 PER difference, so even 52yo guy with no stat/math background should get this one

How far did you dig into those numbers?

it is from here http://www.82games.com/1415/14MIN4.HTM
look if there would not be this huge difference i would not bring that here, i have a degree in math so i understand what sample sizes are for and what statisticaly sound difference looks like

Ok well now my expectation for you digging into those numbers with a detailed explanation has raised significantly!!! I've seen the webpage before I posted my earlier question. I am waiting :)

look at net production per 48 by position, even if you would count off whole Rubio net difference you will still be left with statistical difference

my biggest issue with Flip/Sam is that if you dont believe in math at all, you are not making your rotations well enough so you could end up with good quality data

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I just don't see it.

He can't effectively run an offense and make plays for others. He's proven that for over a year now. Playing him at the point hurts everybody on the team offensively. That is not worth making life a little easier for him on the defensive end. And frankly, his defense on PGs isn't that good either. Yes he has the defensive tools, length and quickness, but he needs to learn how to use them. Tyus and Miller are not very good defenders at the point, but their ability to run the offense and get everyone involved is needed when Rubio isn't on the floor.

Bottom line, the defensive upgrade of LaVine over Tyus at the point doesn't come close to outweighing the offensive upgrade of having a real PG and playing LaVine at his most logical and effective offensive position: SG.[/quo

Drew. I'm not saying Zach is Westbrook, but I think there are similarities...and Westbrook wasn't very good at the point in his rookie season either. He was given the keys to the car, though, and he eventually used his athleticism to become an elite PG. But it wasn't without pain...5.3 APG against 3.3 TOs per game aren't very good numbers when you're playing next to a guy like Durant. Plus, Westbrook had a ton of minutes at the point at UCLA, while Zach had none. Why would we expect Zach to be a great PG right out of the chute with so little experience? We need to give him some time to see if he can parlay his incredible physical gifts and good ball handling into becoming a Westbrook-light kind of PG.

Look, I fully admit you guys may be smarter than me in this argument...that's not a high bar! But I'm less confident that your observations are smarter than both Flip and Sam, who got to see Zach in practice like we can't, and both saw him more as a PG than a SG. Let's give this guy a chance. As Flip often said, letting a young guy play PG makes him a better SG. His value to the team is only enhanced if he is given a chance to develop his PG skills.

[Monster]

interesting fact is though that Lavine had 10.6PER at PG and allowed 19.5 PER for opponent, however at SG he had 13.3PER at SG and held opponents to nice 11.8PER, so your argument is not valid and playing Lavine anywhere else than SG is completely and utterly stupid as that is more 10 PER difference, so even 52yo guy with no stat/math background should get this one

How far did you dig into those numbers?

it is from here http://www.82games.com/1415/14MIN4.HTM
look if there would not be this huge difference i would not bring that here, i have a degree in math so i understand what sample sizes are for and what statisticaly sound difference looks like

Ok well now my expectation for you digging into those numbers with a detailed explanation has raised significantly!!! I've seen the webpage before I posted my earlier question. I am waiting :)

look at net production per 48 by position, even if you would count off whole Rubio net difference you will still be left with statistical difference

my biggest issue with Flip/Sam is that if you dont believe in math at all, you are not making your rotations well enough so you could end up with good quality data

What about the fact that Zach played a significant portion of his PG minutes as a starter?