CoolBreeze's 2 Things I Didn't Like Tonight Plus 1

[AbeVigodaLive]

Agree with a lot of it. A couple of discussion points where we might differ though...

As far as the free throws... yeah, it kind of was just Wiggins. At least if you're talking about unacceptable efforts. He was 2 - 8. Granted, Gorgui missed 2. And Rubio missed one late... but the rest of the team shot 12 - 16 (75%). That's below average, but not by much.

I dig the optimism with Wiggins. But athleticism doesn't equal talent, necessarily. Leonard is one of the league's smartest players on both ends of the court to go with his athleticism. It's highly doubtful Wiggins ever gets the same feel for the game that Leonard has. That's not a knock on Wiggins... it's testament to Leonard. Tonight's a good example, the guy had 17/11 on only 9 shots.

Yeah well Leonard is in his 5th year. I remember them being pretty comparable as 1st/2nd year players. Leonard's game has taken huge leaps during his 4th/5th years. I guess we will just have to see what Andrew looks like after another 250- games. Leonard has also had the advantage of being developed by Pop and playing alongside a bunch of championship caliber players.

Wait. I'm not necessarily comparing them. I'm simply pointing out the dangers in doing so. You can't take anything for granted in the NBA, especially if we're talking about tremendous savvy. IF Wiggins becomes as smart as Leonard... awesome. But, I'm not expecting it. That would be one helluva bonus if he gets there though.

Actually, I don't know if I'd compare them too much even in their first two seasons, just because of such drastic situational differences. Athletically, sure... but just look at their respective roles. Wiggins was the ballyhooed #1 pick for a mediocre turned shit-tastic team (injuries). He was given big minutes and big responsibilities. Leonard wasn't even a lottery pick who joined a perpetual title contender.

Wiggins has been learning on the fly from retreads, other young guys and largely mediocre players. SAS could pick and choose where/when to give Leonard more responsibilities with plenty of opportunities to learn from multiple HOF teammates who were still legit NBA players and arguably one of the game's greatest coaches.

As a result, Leonard posted modest but efficient stats. Grew into a great defender. And learned the little things that not only win games... but win championships. Wiggins has posted more gaudy stats, but with fairly poor efficiency since he's arguably been the best guy on bad teams.

Very different ways to break into the league... and to learn. Which way is best? Depends on the player. Regardless, I think for the most part, great players are going to be great if they have that inner drive. For example, Durant learned early while taking lumps on crappy teams his first two seasons.


[Note: Your note on Leonard in Year 5 is important. The guy has shown tremendous improvement in each of his 5 seasons in the league. I've said it dozens of times now... I try not to get too worked up over a game. Or, even a series of games... as long as there seems to be improvement along the way. I hope Wiggins becomes as good as Leonard someday. We all do.]

[Shumway]

I haven't had a chance to watch the game yet, but how did everyone rate Wiggins' overall game. Clearly the missed FTs hurt - but with 6 boards and 2 steals, the stat line is more well rounded than many games this year. Thoughts?

I thought his compete level was outstanding and that he got better as the game went on. Was a little more aggressive than we've seen in the past. Another interesting thing was he brought the ball up court a few times and didn't look too bad in doing it. His shot needs a lot of work to become more dangerous. it was really fun for me to watch him go head to head with Leonard in the 2nd half. The Spurs substituted Leonard in as soon as Andrew came back in the game. It was clear they didn't want Wig going off on
Green or Ginobili.

Maybe would have been nice to see if a Bazz & Wiggins wing pairing would have worked. If the Spurs need Kawhi to stop Wiggins - let Bazz abuse their 2 guard.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Leonard came into the league and excelled at three things right away: Hitting open 3's, rebounding, and defending. He has since increased his usage rate and become a #1 type option on offense while still doing all of those other things just as well or better. So his improvement has mostly been offensive versatility and usage. Unlike Wiggins, he was (and still is) able to impact the game in very positive ways without needing touches.

And that's been my #1 issue with Wiggins since early his rookie season. "Do shit" players that get a lot done without the ball typically show that attribute very early in their career. Our hope with Wiggins rests on his ability to go from a high usage/low efficiency scorer into a high usage/high efficiency scorer. That's his path to greatness, because he will never be a jack-of-all trades wing.

[Coolbreeze44]

Leonard came into the league and excelled at three things right away: Hitting open 3's, rebounding, and defending. He has since increased his usage rate and become a #1 type option on offense while still doing all of those other things just as well or better. So his improvement has mostly been offensive versatility and usage. Unlike Wiggins, he was (and still is) able to impact the game in very positive ways without needing touches.

And that's been my #1 issue with Wiggins since early his rookie season. "Do shit" players that get a lot done without the ball typically show that attribute very early in their career. Our hope with Wiggins rests on his ability to go from a high usage/low efficiency scorer into a high usage/high efficiency scorer. That's his path to greatness, because he will never be a jack-of-all trades wing.

I still think it's too early to say what he will and won't be able to do. In fact I saw things last night that provide a lot of encouragement about his overall game. I just want to see his game expand every month. His shot is going to have to be a focus in the off season.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Leonard came into the league and excelled at three things right away: Hitting open 3's, rebounding, and defending. He has since increased his usage rate and become a #1 type option on offense while still doing all of those other things just as well or better. So his improvement has mostly been offensive versatility and usage. Unlike Wiggins, he was (and still is) able to impact the game in very positive ways without needing touches.

And that's been my #1 issue with Wiggins since early his rookie season. "Do shit" players that get a lot done without the ball typically show that attribute very early in their career. Our hope with Wiggins rests on his ability to go from a high usage/low efficiency scorer into a high usage/high efficiency scorer. That's his path to greatness, because he will never be a jack-of-all trades wing.

I still think it's too early to say what he will and won't be able to do. In fact I saw things last night that provide a lot of encouragement about his overall game. I just want to see his game expand every month. His shot is going to have to be a focus in the off season.

Sure. I think we all agree that Wiggins still has enough of a blank canvas to offer up legit hope. And I think most are patient enough to realize that it will take time.

Ironically though, you've shared the most pointed comments of anybody in this thread about what he's going to become...

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Yeah, I don't buy the idea that Wiggins (or any second year player that has already logged thousands of minutes) is a blank canvas. Most of the off-the-ball stuff like rebounding, steals, having a nose for the ball, handles, motor, floor vision....these things are apparent very early on. It's not like Wiggins just started playing the game a few years ago.

Again, this doesn't mean he can't be great. But he's not going to be the do-it-all type wing ala LeBron, Pippen, D-Wade, or Jordan. His path is more in line with a guy that could be a lethal, high-usage scorer. Think 'Melo or Durant. These guys don't impact the game a ton unless they are putting the ball in the hoop, which they both do very well.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Yeah, I don't buy the idea that Wiggins (or any second year player that has already logged thousands of minutes) is a blank canvas. Most of the off-the-ball stuff like rebounding, steals, having a nose for the ball, handles, motor, floor vision....these things are apparent very early on. It's not like Wiggins just started playing the game a few years ago.

Again, this doesn't mean he can't be great. But he's not going to be the do-it-all type wing ala LeBron, Pippen, D-Wade, or Jordan. His path is more in line with a guy that could be a lethal, high-usage scorer. Think 'Melo or Durant. These guys don't impact the game a ton unless they are putting the ball in the hoop, which they both do very well.

Sure. I can see that. But I was trying to play nice. That's why I wrote "enough" of a blank canvas. I didn't mean it to say he could become anything he wanted... as much as that his ceiling/potential (in general) is still pretty hopeful.

Make sense?

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Yeah, I don't buy the idea that Wiggins (or any second year player that has already logged thousands of minutes) is a blank canvas. Most of the off-the-ball stuff like rebounding, steals, having a nose for the ball, handles, motor, floor vision....these things are apparent very early on. It's not like Wiggins just started playing the game a few years ago.

Again, this doesn't mean he can't be great. But he's not going to be the do-it-all type wing ala LeBron, Pippen, D-Wade, or Jordan. His path is more in line with a guy that could be a lethal, high-usage scorer. Think 'Melo or Durant. These guys don't impact the game a ton unless they are putting the ball in the hoop, which they both do very well.

Sure. I can see that. But I was trying to play nice. That's why I wrote "enough" of a blank canvas. I didn't mean it to say he could become anything he wanted... as much as that his ceiling/potential (in general) is still pretty hopeful.

Make sense?

Yes, makes sense. I guess I was responding more to Cool, using your terminology. I've said this before, but I think the outlines of what a player can become eventually make themselves apparent fairly early on if given enough playing time. Wiggins is pretty much the same player he was last season, with some incremental improvements in some areas.

I actually agree with Cool that the #1 thing he needs to work on is his shot, because he's not going to suddenly learn how to get more steals or come up with more loose balls in the offseason. Only in the world of Timberwolves do 2nd year guys like Wiggins and LaVine actually show regression with their shot! Can we ever develop a shooter on this team?

[Coolbreeze44]

Coming into the league the consensus was his offensive game was going to take some time. I think he's exceeded those expectations by quite a bit. And I believe that this board generally underrates his defense which I see as very good, almost elite. I acknowledge these are just my opinions, and have no problem with opposing viewpoints. But I'm going to remain very optimistic as it pertains to his long term prospects, and am looking forward to the process.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I was proud of the wolves last night too, cool. They played hard, and unlike recent games Sam really tried to win this one...hence the 30 minutes for Tay Prince. It felt good to be in the game the entire night in San Antonio after the one-sided loss at home last week. But it's tough to win in SA, and especially with Gorgui having an awful game, Wig missing 6 free throws and turning the ball over, and Sam taking an ill-timed technical. Some observations:

1) Not surprisingly KG, KAT, Tay and Ricky were our only positive +/- guys...while our young guys other than KAT are still adjusting to the NBA, we're just a better team when our vets are on the floor. As proof that KG and Tay read this board, they didn't pass up open jumpers last night, and they went 10-13...continuing to hit that open jumper will force defenses to look at Tay and KG, and open things up inside for KAT and Wig.

2) On the other side of the coin was Gorgui's horrible minus 17. He shot poorly, turned the ball over, and couldn't defend San Antonio's Serbian Lurch. Just an awful game for G.

3) Ricky...14 assists, 4 steals and 1 turnover! Plus pressuring Tony Parker into a terrible game.

4) Wig was a mixed bag. 18 points off of Leonard was impressive, but his handle was ugly (seemed like way more than 3 TOs) and he missed 6 key free throws. I want more from Wig.

5) The offensive productive Bazz showed up last night (I love how he is stationing himself out by the arc, and our PGs are finding him) but his defense was disappointing. When Kyle Anderson scores easily on you, you are far from an average NBA defender.

6) AP has moved ahead of Belly on the depth chart, and he deserves it. Belly had no shots or rebounds in 5 minutes (his confidence is gone), while Payne contributed both on offense (7 points) and defense (2 blocks and 2 steals). His -9 shows how much more poorly we play when KG isn't on the court though.

7) Tyus was not very good. but I'm in favor of Sam keeping him out there...he looks like he might belong in the NBA.

Eight) I know you guys love Zach at SG, but he has been pretty bad since he started playing exclusively there...his PER has now dropped below 17. While he is far from a refined NBA PG (although greatly improved), he still looks more comfortable to me with the ball in his hands, and that doesn't happen when Ricky is out there. Since I want to see what Tyus can do at PG, Zach needs to play the 2...but he has hit only 16% of his threes the past five games and is only 8-28 shooting the past two games. I miss how smooth he looked on threes from the top of the key off of picks, but there's no reason he can't incorporate that into his SG game. Zach is not playing well at the 2, but in all fairness he is only 20 and hasn't played much SG this year. We're not likely to be going anywhere this year, so I'm willing to keep running Tyus and Zach out there as our backup guards.