CoolBreeze44 wrote:The biggest concern is his ability to stay on the court. So much so that Mudiay should be a consideration for us in the draft. You can win a title with Ricky as your PG, he just hast to be able to stay on the court.
What needs to be around him to get to that point?
Thanks for asking Abe - here is my list:
1) A coach that plays to his strengths - getting him in the open court and distributing on the fly
2) Guys that can run with him (aka Wiggins, Lavine and a big like Faried)
3) Another all star player in addition to Wiggins
4) Multiple shooters who can make the defense pay for collapsing on Rubio when he drives
Can a guy like Calderon or Holiday or Knight win a title with the same things around him?
Maybe Holiday
Not Knight? He seems to be improving every season. Solid defensively. But he's definitely not the facilitator Rubio is.
His development scoring wise and his injuries have been disappointing, but the fact that he's still really young, his injuries have all been random freak things and that they are actively working on his shot (even during the season) gives me hope still.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:The biggest concern is his ability to stay on the court. So much so that Mudiay should be a consideration for us in the draft. You can win a title with Ricky as your PG, he just hast to be able to stay on the court.
What needs to be around him to get to that point?
Thanks for asking Abe - here is my list:
1) A coach that plays to his strengths - getting him in the open court and distributing on the fly
2) Guys that can run with him (aka Wiggins, Lavine and a big like Faried)
3) Another all star player in addition to Wiggins
4) Multiple shooters who can make the defense pay for collapsing on Rubio when he drives
Can a guy like Calderon or Holiday or Knight win a title with the same things around him?
Maybe Holiday
Not Knight? He seems to be improving every season. Solid defensively. But he's definitely not the facilitator Rubio is.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:The biggest concern is his ability to stay on the court. So much so that Mudiay should be a consideration for us in the draft. You can win a title with Ricky as your PG, he just hast to be able to stay on the court.
What needs to be around him to get to that point?
Thanks for asking Abe - here is my list:
1) A coach that plays to his strengths - getting him in the open court and distributing on the fly
2) Guys that can run with him (aka Wiggins, Lavine and a big like Faried)
3) Another all star player in addition to Wiggins
4) Multiple shooters who can make the defense pay for collapsing on Rubio when he drives
Can a guy like Calderon or Holiday or Knight win a title with the same things around him?
Maybe Holiday
Not Knight? He seems to be improving every season. Solid defensively. But he's definitely not the facilitator Rubio is.
Phoenix certainly thinks highly of him.
Exactly
Sure. But is being a facilitator the best way to build a team for a championship... when that facilitator remains arguably the worst-shooting everyday starting guard in about 60 years?
Knight won't wow with any part of his game. But, he's becoming a pretty dependable all-around player. And most importantly, continuing to improve in each of his first four seasons. Logically, that would lead me to believe he could continue to improve more than the guy who's largely stagnated for his first four seasons.
Granted, I like Rubio a lot. He has one ELITE skill. But, that may not be the most important skill for a championship (or very good) PG to have anymore.
I think Rubio needs someone who can finish in the low post. He had his best moments when pek would roll to the basket and there were multiple options on the wing. That is why I favor Okafor. But ultimately I think Cool has got it right. There is no evidence to suggest he can play enough games to reach his potential. I have been suggesting looking at PGs for a while in some posts. We should try vigorously (trading away players with salary)to make a play at dragic this off season if possible. Dragic in a Max deal at this cap level will be a great move for any team once the new TV deal kicks in. I don't think there is any way on earth this happens but my dream off season would be adding Okafor and Dragic while keeping Wiggins, Muhammed and to a lesser extant Lavine and Rubio.
Q12543 wrote:Who was Dennis Rodman surrounded by? Who was Jason Kidd surrounded by? Who was Ben Wallace surrounded by? All of these guys were low-scoring players that won titles with Detroit, Chicago, and Dallas. I would argue in all three cases they were among the top 3 players of their respective teams.
So I couldn't check a box because the choice of "elite role player" wasn't an option.
Rubio needs shooters, scorers, and other guys willing to defend and play as hard as he does. Once he has those, the sky is the limit.
Sorry for not using the exact terms you wanted. He could still be an "elite role player" and be included in the first option... or the second option.
It's a matter of whether you think his current level is at the elite role player level. Or, if he has to improve to get there. The point is more about the stagnation in his development. He's essentially the same player now as he's always been. We can point to minimal improvement in a stat here or there... but he's still an excellent passer, good defender and horrific shooter. Add it all up, 4 years in... and what have we learned about him? What do the Wolves have?
As for the examples you gave... I'm not seeing the Kidd one. Jason Terry was instrumental to that title. So was Chandler. I think Kidd was a placeholder of sorts, although his defensive versatility (along with Marion) was pretty huge. But putting him 3rd or 4th or 5th is a pretty minor quibble.
I think we have learned that he is an elite role player. If his shooting improves, he's an even better player. If it doesn't, he's still an elite role player.
I don't believe in positional dogmas - there are multiple ways to piece together a winner.
Q12543 wrote:Who was Dennis Rodman surrounded by? Who was Jason Kidd surrounded by? Who was Ben Wallace surrounded by? All of these guys were low-scoring players that won titles with Detroit, Chicago, and Dallas. I would argue in all three cases they were among the top 3 players of their respective teams.
So I couldn't check a box because the choice of "elite role player" wasn't an option.
Rubio needs shooters, scorers, and other guys willing to defend and play as hard as he does. Once he has those, the sky is the limit.
Sorry for not using the exact terms you wanted. He could still be an "elite role player" and be included in the first option... or the second option.
It's a matter of whether you think his current level is at the elite role player level. Or, if he has to improve to get there. The point is more about the stagnation in his development. He's essentially the same player now as he's always been. We can point to minimal improvement in a stat here or there... but he's still an excellent passer, good defender and horrific shooter. Add it all up, 4 years in... and what have we learned about him? What do the Wolves have?
As for the examples you gave... I'm not seeing the Kidd one. Jason Terry was instrumental to that title. So was Chandler. I think Kidd was a placeholder of sorts, although his defensive versatility (along with Marion) was pretty huge. But putting him 3rd or 4th or 5th is a pretty minor quibble.
I think we have learned that he is an elite role player. If his shooting improves, he's an even better player. If it doesn't, he's still an elite role player.
I don't believe in positional dogmas - there are multiple ways to piece together a winner.
Agreed that it's better to be on the next wave on "how to create a championship" than to chase one with 29 other teams.
Unfortunately, Rubio has to be much much more than "elite role player" on the Wolves. And that's why the team is looking at 65 losses. Again.
thedoper wrote:I think Rubio needs someone who can finish in the low post. He had his best moments when pek would roll to the basket and there were multiple options on the wing. That is why I favor Okafor. But ultimately I think Cool has got it right. There is no evidence to suggest he can play enough games to reach his potential. I have been suggesting looking at PGs for a while in some posts. We should try vigorously (trading away players with salary)to make a play at dragic this off season if possible. Dragic in a Max deal at this cap level will be a great move for any team once the new TV deal kicks in. I don't think there is any way on earth this happens but my dream off season would be adding Okafor and Dragic while keeping Wiggins, Muhammed and to a lesser extant Lavine and Rubio.
Less then 0% chance on Dragic. And the problem isn't that there isn't anyone to roll to the basket, it's that Rubio doesn't go to the basket
Q12543 wrote:Who was Dennis Rodman surrounded by? Who was Jason Kidd surrounded by? Who was Ben Wallace surrounded by? All of these guys were low-scoring players that won titles with Detroit, Chicago, and Dallas. I would argue in all three cases they were among the top 3 players of their respective teams.
So I couldn't check a box because the choice of "elite role player" wasn't an option.
Rubio needs shooters, scorers, and other guys willing to defend and play as hard as he does. Once he has those, the sky is the limit.
Sorry for not using the exact terms you wanted. He could still be an "elite role player" and be included in the first option... or the second option.
It's a matter of whether you think his current level is at the elite role player level. Or, if he has to improve to get there. The point is more about the stagnation in his development. He's essentially the same player now as he's always been. We can point to minimal improvement in a stat here or there... but he's still an excellent passer, good defender and horrific shooter. Add it all up, 4 years in... and what have we learned about him? What do the Wolves have?
As for the examples you gave... I'm not seeing the Kidd one. Jason Terry was instrumental to that title. So was Chandler. I think Kidd was a placeholder of sorts, although his defensive versatility (along with Marion) was pretty huge. But putting him 3rd or 4th or 5th is a pretty minor quibble.
I think we have learned that he is an elite role player. If his shooting improves, he's an even better player. If it doesn't, he's still an elite role player.
I don't believe in positional dogmas - there are multiple ways to piece together a winner.
Agreed that it's better to be on the next wave on "how to create a championship" than to chase one with 29 other teams.
Unfortunately, Rubio has to be much much more than "elite role player" on the Wolves. And that's why the team is looking at 65 losses. Again.
Well, yeah. Flip took LaVine as a potential home run pick in the draft (his words). We traded Love in exchange for a 19-year old who theoretically will be a top tier player some day. If he thought Rubio would evolve into the franchise alpha dog offensively, I'm not sure he'd be as aggressive in going after potential "go-to" type perimeter players. Now we all have varying degrees of optimism in terms of how good these guys will be, but I think the front office gets the fact that ultimately Rubio needs dynamic shot makers around him.
(as an aside, while Rubio still struggles mightily with his shot/finishing, he is a very good free throw shooter. That's important in the 4th quarters of tight games).
thedoper wrote:I think Rubio needs someone who can finish in the low post. He had his best moments when pek would roll to the basket and there were multiple options on the wing. That is why I favor Okafor. But ultimately I think Cool has got it right. There is no evidence to suggest he can play enough games to reach his potential. I have been suggesting looking at PGs for a while in some posts. We should try vigorously (trading away players with salary)to make a play at dragic this off season if possible. Dragic in a Max deal at this cap level will be a great move for any team once the new TV deal kicks in. I don't think there is any way on earth this happens but my dream off season would be adding Okafor and Dragic while keeping Wiggins, Muhammed and to a lesser extant Lavine and Rubio.
I'd feel sorry for Wiggins, the one guy that is a plus defender among this foursome.
