CoolBreeze44 wrote:The negativity on Payne is off the hook. Pretend we drafted him in the 2nd round. At least then you could be more objective about him.
How about Ersan Ilyasova as a comp for Bjelica?
More mobile, better handle, longer than Ilyasova. I think he's more Gallinari/Mirotic/Parsons/Diaw/Casspi-like. Just my opinion, though.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:The negativity on Payne is off the hook. Pretend we drafted him in the 2nd round. At least then you could be more objective about him.
How about Ersan Ilyasova as a comp for Bjelica?
But that's the problem, Cool. Flip didn't draft Payne in the second round. He gave up a future 1st round pick that will probably be in the teens. Looking at the situation objectively, Payne looks like a bad personnel decision. Payne has some talent, but he measures way high on the bonehead meter and has a windup on his shot you usually only see in elementary school basketball. There's a reason Payne had at least three PFs getting playing time in front of him. I wouldn't have had a huge problem if we had drafted Payne with one of those second round picks we've sold. But that's not what happened.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:The negativity on Payne is off the hook. Pretend we drafted him in the 2nd round. At least then you could be more objective about him.
How about Ersan Ilyasova as a comp for Bjelica?
But that's the problem, Cool. Flip didn't draft Payne in the second round. He gave up a future 1st round pick that will probably be in the teens. Looking at the situation objectively, Payne looks like a bad personnel decision. Payne has some talent, but he measures way high on the bonehead meter and has a windup on his shot you usually only see in elementary school basketball. There's a reason Payne had at least three PFs getting playing time in front of him. I wouldn't have had a huge problem if we had drafted Payne with one of those second round picks we've sold. But that's not what happened.
A somewhat different take is I would say the hate for this trade is off the hook and along those same lines with what Cool said is right I don't think people are being objective about it. Lip says the pick we give up is probably in the teens. What statistical model did you use for that? :) let be honest here based on the Wolves last 10 years or so its likely to end up as two 2nd round picks. Lol
Everyone agrees that PF is a mess and then some choose to blast Flip for trading a future asset to try and find a player this year that might be a solution to the problem. Yeah so far it looks like a bad trade but come on with the idea we should have got him for a 2nd rounder or whatever that's not remotely realistic especially when some people turn around and value Bennett as a protected 1st round pick. I wasn't high on Payne but the trade made a lot of sense at the time and in some ways it still does it just turns out the player looks terrible.
Congrats to the people who were not a fan of Payne take time to pat yourself on the back and enjoy the moment. Ok that felt good didn't it? Great let's move on to a certain extent. If Flip can't recover from losing out on a lottery protected first round pick somewhere down the line then he sucks. It feels like this mistake is just an easy to stroke some confirmation bias for people. I can't blame them though it's tough being a Wolves fan and getting joy about being right is kinda nice when there are so few wins to be happy with. Lol
I am over Flip wasting a pick on Payne. Damage is done, but don't let it compound by making it effect other roster moves. Admit it has not worked out and move on. I am sure we can find a better big with one of our second rounders or in the d-league, but Payne on the roster should have zero impact on what we do with Bjelica.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:The negativity on Payne is off the hook. Pretend we drafted him in the 2nd round. At least then you could be more objective about him.
How about Ersan Ilyasova as a comp for Bjelica?
But that's the problem, Cool. Flip didn't draft Payne in the second round. He gave up a future 1st round pick that will probably be in the teens. Looking at the situation objectively, Payne looks like a bad personnel decision. Payne has some talent, but he measures way high on the bonehead meter and has a windup on his shot you usually only see in elementary school basketball. There's a reason Payne had at least three PFs getting playing time in front of him. I wouldn't have had a huge problem if we had drafted Payne with one of those second round picks we've sold. But that's not what happened.
But Lip that's my point, stop evaluating the personnel decision and look at the player outside of that. I'm not overly optimistic about him becoming a good player, but I want to see more. The personnel decision should be it's own discussion.
Payne was a rookie last year. We are so bad we can't afford to give up on guys just because they had a bad rookie campaign. Maybe Payne being 24 helps him turn it around quicker and be a rotation guy next year after he studies the tape and actually gets some practice time. The deal has been made so why would you compound a bad move with another bad move and cut or trade him for half of what you gave up to get him when he's on a cheap rookie contract and has lots of room to improve going into his sophomore year? Good teams have project guys like these and they may or may not pan out, but he costs so little there is no reason to dump him at this point.
Newsflash. Most rookies aren't good. Being an older rookie doesn't make any difference because you are still a rookie trying to adjust to the NBA level. Even Mirotic was only good for a month and he was a professional for years while Payne was an amateur for years. This notion that guys are who they are as rookies and a bad rookie year means they can't ever become good just needs to stop because it's absolutely ridiculous. Half the guys in the league would have never made it if their careers were decided by how they played as rookies. There's a learning curve that only a special few excel through. The rest just take time which requires patience which is something this board lacks big time right now. Now is the time we need to be more patient than ever so it gets built right and we never have to deal with this again.
Look at a guy like Ben McLemore. Most wouldn't have even touched him after his rookie campaign. He re-grouped and became a good rotation player for them this year. Give him another year and he may get even better. Same goes for KCP, Terrance Ross, Cody Zeller, Steven Adams, Dennis Schroeder, Corey Joseph, Rudy Gobert, Derrick Favors, CJ McCollum, among others. They all had varying degrees of rookie struggles and they are all rotation level players or better right now. Adriane Payne might be a name to add to that list or he might not. The point is that opportunity shouldn't be nullified by dumping him because of a poor start to his career.
Good post, khans. It's remarkable how much improved the 2013 class was in their second seasons. I would add VO and even Shabazz to the group. That's why I was so disappointed in Bennett this year...I was really expecting a bounce back.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:The negativity on Payne is off the hook. Pretend we drafted him in the 2nd round. At least then you could be more objective about him.
How about Ersan Ilyasova as a comp for Bjelica?
But that's the problem, Cool. Flip didn't draft Payne in the second round. He gave up a future 1st round pick that will probably be in the teens. Looking at the situation objectively, Payne looks like a bad personnel decision. Payne has some talent, but he measures way high on the bonehead meter and has a windup on his shot you usually only see in elementary school basketball. There's a reason Payne had at least three PFs getting playing time in front of him. I wouldn't have had a huge problem if we had drafted Payne with one of those second round picks we've sold. But that's not what happened.
But Lip that's my point, stop evaluating the personnel decision and look at the player outside of that. I'm not overly optimistic about him becoming a good player, but I want to see more. The personnel decision should be it's own discussion.
We can agree on that, Cool. As I mentioned, I'm not ready to give up all hope for Payne the player even though I think the deal to get him was a bad one. And like Bleed, I don't want that bad decision to influence the organization's decision on Bjelica. In the meantime, I'll pull for Payne to become the player that flip apparently believes he can be.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:The negativity on Payne is off the hook. Pretend we drafted him in the 2nd round. At least then you could be more objective about him.
How about Ersan Ilyasova as a comp for Bjelica?
More mobile, better handle, longer than Ilyasova. I think he's more Gallinari/Mirotic/Parsons/Diaw/Casspi-like. Just my opinion, though.
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Bold statement there cam. Gallo/parsons/mirotic/diaw are starters in the league. Ersan is a solid rotation guy in the league and has good length for a 4 and a good rebounder and quite mobile himself.
Im not an expert on bjelica but from what I have seen, he is more casspi/ersan like than a league starter in gallo/parsons/diaw.
