Oh Cam, I thought you loved James Young? I must have misinterpretted your other 1,000 posts about him.
Kidding, but you know that taking such a strong stance on an 18 year old player that actually played pretty well on one of the best young teams in the country is probably going to bite you in the butt. I have never seen someone hate a player as much as you hate Young. While he may not be the best propect in the draft, he is far from the prospect you make him out to be. While I don't see superstar with Young, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he turns into a very good player with his length and shooting. I guess I just don't understand your animocity against such a young player that has the size and shows plenty of skills to be considered a pretty strong prospect.
The guy I wouldn't want is Aaron Gordon. He is a second rounder to me. Athlete...check. Defense...check. Anything else...nope. While I love the kids defensive potential, he is LRMAM bad on offense...maybe worse. The problem with a guy like this is he will be such a liabilty on offense that he is going to have a real tough time getting on the floor to improve. He is making the smart decision to come out of college now, as he will be drafted soley on potential rather than skill, but he could use another 2-3 years of school to improve his offense.
What do you guys not like about Payne? I just know what I read, he is a stretch forward who can score and play D. He's a Spartan, right? Watch Flips buddy at MSU talk Flip into it
Adreian Payne's transformation into the focal point of Michigan State's offense over the years was something to watch, and despite only playing just over 28 minutes per game, partially due to a lung ailment that impacts his stamina -- Payne used 14.8 possessions per game, one of the higher marks among this group despite his relatively low playing time.
From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz35iIhgp6e
http://www.draftexpress.com
I haven't really done any homework on Payne but here is my basic take after looking at his profile on DX. Nice length actually center length which is nice but my issues are...only was really good his senior year blocks and steals aren't that exciting and isn't that great of a rebounder. He is 23. If we pick a big he better be really impressive. I just don't get that excited about a stretch 4.
Oh Cam, I thought you loved James Young? I must have misinterpretted your other 1,000 posts about him.
Kidding, but you know that taking such a strong stance on an 18 year old player that actually played pretty well on one of the best young teams in the country is probably going to bite you in the butt. I have never seen someone hate a player as much as you hate Young. While he may not be the best propect in the draft, he is far from the prospect you make him out to be. While I don't see superstar with Young, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he turns into a very good player with his length and shooting. I guess I just don't understand your animocity against such a young player that has the size and shows plenty of skills to be considered a pretty strong prospect.
The guy I wouldn't want is Aaron Gordon. He is a second rounder to me. Athlete...check. Defense...check. Anything else...nope. While I love the kids defensive potential, he is LRMAM bad on offense...maybe worse. The problem with a guy like this is he will be such a liabilty on offense that he is going to have a real tough time getting on the floor to improve. He is making the smart decision to come out of college now, as he will be drafted soley on potential rather than skill, but he could use another 2-3 years of school to improve his offense.
Young being 18 and 6'7 isn't enough for me. It apparently has you won over, though. The guy doesn't play defense, doesn't understand help defense. He's an under the rim player, even though he gets touted as a really athletic wing for one lucky dunk in the Nat'l Title game. He's a chucker. Shots early in the shot clock and when guarded closely; watched him dribble recklessly into the teeth of the defense to throw up bad floater after bad floater. 40% from the field last year on 11 attempts I believe. I remember the numbers because I've said them a billion times. His off the dribble game is far from good. He doesn't create for others at all. Thankfully he grabs 4 boards a game (guy is 6'7; he sure as hell should). I'm sorry, but this guy's game has more learning and maturing to do than Zach LaVine's. You say he has plenty of skills... except he doesn't. He's really good at chucking, though. Brandon Jennings mentality.
And you just confirmed that your talent evaluation skills are terrible in your post about Aaron Gordon. 2nd rounder? Really? But you adovocate for a one-trick pony in James Young? C'mon now. And no, he's no where near Mbah a Moute on offense. Good handle for a player of his size and he plays above the rim. His issues stem from having a poor jumper. 44% from the line is horrific, but the kid's a hard worker. I expect him to get it to 65-70% with ease. With the right point guard, he's going to be just fine on offense. Mbah a Moute misses wide open layups. Gordon makes the dunk. What a piss poor comparison, Hicks. 2nd rounder...
He is making the smart decision to come out of college now, as he will be drafted soley on potential rather than skill, but he could use another 2-3 years of school to improve his offense.
Not sure if you meant this about Aaron Gordon or James Young... Hmm :dizzy:
We aren't likely getting a starter at 13, so Payne is fine by me. He is almost certain to be a better player than Cunningham, so I can handle an improved big off the bench. I also like Ennis (despite Syracuse connection), James Young (sorry Cam), Harris, Warren, Jordan Adams. In this draft, I seriously entertain trading down with someone like Chicago and grab a couple of the guys I listed. Could also grab 1 guy in that list and also probably get Saric to stash.
I have a feeling that Flip will attempt to get a second 1st and look to Chicago and Phoenix to get it. I have a feeling Chicago would trade 16 and 19 for 13 but the question is if Flip's guys are there. Phoenix is looking to consolidate but I am not sure theyd move 14 and 18 for 13. Would probably have to add something else, although Phoenix has a history of selling mid firsts. A trade of 13 for 14 and 18 would be fantastic, if it didn't cost much more.
Cam, I am not at all "sold" on James Young. What I see is an 18 year old player that has some flaws....not of which are fatal and can't be improved. Aren't you one of the guys that still thinks Rubio becomes a better shooter? Even in a perceived strong draft, every player has some major red flags to his game. From Wiggins (no motor, no offense), to Parker (fat, lazy, horrific defender), Embiid (bad back and potentially chronic foot problem), Exum (never has really played extended time against NBA type talent - and hasn't done anything in the past year), Randle (terrible defender and struggles against length), and on and on. My point is that you have jumped on a strange bandwagon of tormenting Young as if he actually stands out to his peers in the 10-20 range in this draft. The flaws you bring up may be true, but those issues are hardly worse than even the ones I mention of the expected top picks I highlighted above, let alone his peer set that gets picked around him. The reason those guys go in the middle to end of the first round is that they have many perceived flaws WHEN DRAFTED. Guess what, many of these players will actually get better as they grow and mature. As an 18 year old player, I would expect him to get better...it's simply the natural course of aging and playing. Does he end up a great player...odds say no...but the same can be said for probably 20 of the 30 picks in the first round.
And yeah, after seeing Gordon several times this season, I project a total bust. When was the last player we saw come out of college shooting FT's at less than 50% and improve to...what did you say....70%. I am not even going to try to find this comparison, but please show me a couple examples of this happening. Talk about a guy with massive flaws in his offensive game, but yeah, keep picking apart Young. I do like the "hard worker" comment, as if that always matters. I don't think anyone has ever doubted Rubio is a hard worker...how is that shot coming along. There are a million hard-working athletes that fizzle out. It is more common than not. I simply believe that his offensive flaws are so huge that he won't see the floor very often, which makes it tough to improve. So yeah, a defensive specialist that plays 10-15 minutes per game = 2nd rounder. And he is a tweener at that.
And just so we don't battle back and forth on this, I am not pro James Young. I like him as a prospect, along with about 10 other guys I see as equal level prospects. 2-3 of those guys will probably go on to have good careers, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that I have no idea which 2-3 those will be.
Phenom's_Revenge wrote:I have a feeling that Flip will attempt to get a second 1st and look to Chicago and Phoenix to get it. I have a feeling Chicago would trade 16 and 19 for 13 but the question is if Flip's guys are there. Phoenix is looking to consolidate but I am not sure theyd move 14 and 18 for 13. Would probably have to add something else, although Phoenix has a history of selling mid firsts. A trade of 13 for 14 and 18 would be fantastic, if it didn't cost much more.
I'd love to trade down and get 2 picks but that's how I feel almost all the time. Its going to depend on who is there for the Wolves and who is there for the other team also. The wolves have some 2nd rounders that may have value as pick and stash for another team. The Chicago 16 and 19 seems realistic to me as well but I don't know who Chicago would be willing to go up and get.
Right off the top of my head is Chandler Parsons. Guy was a bad FT shooter at Florida and is now a relatively good one. With both him and Gordon, it's more mental than it is physical. He'll figure it out. FT shooting is probably the easiest thing to improve on if you're not a center (big hands + height level you see rim = Shaq's problems).
And he does stand out amongst his peers because he's been getting low lottery consideration, mainly for being 6'7 and 18 years old. His play screams low first rounder at best. I'm saying he's really overrated. Isn't that what fans do? Discuss who's good/bad, underrated/overrated. When I pick apart Young, it's not as crazy as you make it out to be. I really don't like him as a prospect. This thread is about players that we don't want at 13. I don't want him. That's all that needs to be said on that, really.
Not sure why you dismissed Gordon being a hard worker... Getting better at shooting revolves around time spent in the gym working on a shot, which I expect him to do. It's free throw shooting. Do you honestly expect him to not improve?
"So yeah, a defensive specialist that plays 10-15 minutes per game = 2nd rounder. And he is a tweener at that."
Your take on Gordon might be as laughable of a comment as I've seen on this forum. And are you considered a tweener if you're good at both positions, which he is? I always thought that was called versatility. He's in the same mold as AK47 and Shawn Marion. Tweener or versatile. He's extremely better than you give him credit for.
