Minnesota Sports Forum

thedoper wrote:The NBA took a stand in the US so people could be comfortable to pee in the way they want to pee. There's no stakes there.

The protestors in Hong Kong are carrying the US Flag and singing our anthem, and the NBA chose the Communist government over freedom. Freedom to pee in the bathroom of your choice is a 1st world problem.

thedoper wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

thedoper wrote:North Carolina's Bathroom law was just more important than China's extradition law.

I think taking a stand for something that happening in your own country is a different sort of thing than what is happening in another country. It's certainly not that simple but I do see a difference there.

One of my friends said a few weeks ago that they teach their kids that there are consequences for actions. They told them that consequences aren't specifically good or bad but there are things that happen based on what we do. All of us support free speech but there are consequences for that. I don't think it's just the money either that's an issue for the NBA etc although that's a pretty big deal. General relationships with people in a country like China is a pretty big deal.

The only real difference is that the stakes are lower when you take a stand in a free country with free laws. What the Chinese government is doing in Hong Kong is disgusting by any ethical standard. People are getting shot by their government. The NBA took a stand in the US so people could be comfortable to pee in the way they want to pee. There's no stakes there.

There are absolutely people that would say there were stakes when it comes to that bathroom law. Maybe you don't agree but there are people that would very strongly disagree with what you said there.

So what other countries or organizations is the NBA supposed to be standing tall against? Where is the line?

monsterpile wrote:

thedoper wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

thedoper wrote:North Carolina's Bathroom law was just more important than China's extradition law.

I think taking a stand for something that happening in your own country is a different sort of thing than what is happening in another country. It's certainly not that simple but I do see a difference there.

One of my friends said a few weeks ago that they teach their kids that there are consequences for actions. They told them that consequences aren't specifically good or bad but there are things that happen based on what we do. All of us support free speech but there are consequences for that. I don't think it's just the money either that's an issue for the NBA etc although that's a pretty big deal. General relationships with people in a country like China is a pretty big deal.

The only real difference is that the stakes are lower when you take a stand in a free country with free laws. What the Chinese government is doing in Hong Kong is disgusting by any ethical standard. People are getting shot by their government. The NBA took a stand in the US so people could be comfortable to pee in the way they want to pee. There's no stakes there.

There are absolutely people that would say there were stakes when it comes to that bathroom law. Maybe you don't agree but there are people that would very strongly disagree with what you said there.

So what other countries or organizations is the NBA supposed to be standing tall against? Where is the line?

Here is the statement the NBA made when they pulled out of Charlotte (my bold):

"Our week-long schedule of All-Star events and activities is intended to be a global celebration of basketball, our league, and the values for which we stand, and to bring together all members of the NBA community -- current and former players, league and team officials, business partners, and fans," said the NBA in a statement. "While we recognize that the NBA cannot choose the law in every city, state, and country in which we do business, we do not believe we can successfully host our All-Star festivities in Charlotte in the climate created by HB2."

I agree with you that there are people that feel very strongly about HB2, on both sides. The NBA decided to pick a side. They didn't have to, but they did. Fine.

Now China happens to be a country the NBA does big business in and plays exhibition games in. It's a huge market for them, just like the U.S.. I think it's also fair to say that their track record on social justice, human rights, and democratic values are probably antithetical to "the values for which we stand" (quoting from above). So now the NBA is all mealy-mouthed over picking a side in this case!?

Now here is the problem. Either the NBA has a consistent set of values that they decided to retreat on in this case OR may be their values aren't all that consistent to begin with, but instead selectively chosen to be sufficiently "woke" unless the bottom line is impacted.. And THAT is the real annoyance here. Either be a business that completely stays out of politics or pick a set of values that you adhere to and stay true to it in all circumstances. They want it both ways.

monsterpile wrote:

thedoper wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

thedoper wrote:North Carolina's Bathroom law was just more important than China's extradition law.

I think taking a stand for something that happening in your own country is a different sort of thing than what is happening in another country. It's certainly not that simple but I do see a difference there.

One of my friends said a few weeks ago that they teach their kids that there are consequences for actions. They told them that consequences aren't specifically good or bad but there are things that happen based on what we do. All of us support free speech but there are consequences for that. I don't think it's just the money either that's an issue for the NBA etc although that's a pretty big deal. General relationships with people in a country like China is a pretty big deal.

The only real difference is that the stakes are lower when you take a stand in a free country with free laws. What the Chinese government is doing in Hong Kong is disgusting by any ethical standard. People are getting shot by their government. The NBA took a stand in the US so people could be comfortable to pee in the way they want to pee. There's no stakes there.

There are absolutely people that would say there were stakes when it comes to that bathroom law. Maybe you don't agree but there are people that would very strongly disagree with what you said there.

So what other countries or organizations is the NBA supposed to be standing tall against? Where is the line?

I didnt mean to say there are no stakes, Only that in my opinion the stakes are lower. Im really not trying to criticize what the bathroom law was trying to address in spite of my sarcasm, it was only to say that I the threat of death, prison and torture in China is higher stakes than being able to choose the type of bathroom you want to use.

China drew the line by trying to cancel the rockets even though what Morey said was the ethically responsible position. Also if you're in a business relationship with a country that has reprehensible behavior to their Citizens the line has been crossed. Im more on the side that I'd rather them not weigh in on politics at all, because when they do they are opening up the door to an analysis of their knowledge and ethics. Lebron said players arent going to just shut up and dribble, yet its exactly what they're doing now.

Very well said Q

Steve Kerr's comments about how no one asked him about people getting mowed down in a shopping mall in the US was such a cowardly take. He has no problem spouting off about domestic issues because he hates the President. But he pleads ignorance on China. His ignorance is one thing I'm in agreement with.

Come on - drawing parallels between where you pee and freedom is just fucking absurd! You seriously compared a social issue that is pushed to further the needle on freedom in this country - it is a tiny step in the direction of freedom here in America, and some people are slow to accept these changes. Then you have people who are literally struggling with government oppression by the MILLIONS. They are being beaten and jailed - and we are only talking about HK only. There are millions in internment camps due to their religion - but they are an ocean away so who cares right?

The NBA and its players have one thing in mind - making money. Silver and the players made the decision to work social issues gets you more fans, lots of companies are doing it - its the coolest thing in the marketing world right now. Problem is, the marketing people don't understand global politics - especially complex issues like freedom - and they have zero experience with nations rejecting their message with the type of authority they are seeing in China - a tweet just closed a billion $ market.

Fix the US first for once. Not that I don't care about Hong Kong, I care more about myself, my family, neighbors and community, heck even state and country before China.

-The US imprisons the highest percentage of people in the entire World! Most for petty drug possessions or sales.
-The US has one of the highest overall tax rates, which most are hidden and disproportionately effect the poor (Tariffs, Regulation costs, Payroll taxes, Gasoline taxes, Cigarette, Alcohol, etc.).
-The US spends Ten times more on military then any other Country.
-The US has a major homeless problem, while the rich have had their wealth more then doubled in just the last ten years.
-The US still has lots uninsured people for healthcare, many who make too much to get welfare, but too little to afford it.

WolvesFan21 wrote:Fix the US first for once. Not that I don't care about Hong Kong, I care more about myself, my family, neighbors and community, heck even state and country before China.

-The US imprisons the highest percentage of people in the entire World! Most for petty drug possessions or sales.
-The US has one of the highest overall tax rates, which most are hidden and disproportionately effect the poor (Tariffs, Regulation costs, Payroll taxes, Gasoline taxes, Cigarette, Alcohol, etc.).
-The US spends Ten times more on military then any other Country.
-The US has a major homeless problem, while the rich have had their wealth more then doubled in just the last ten years.
-The US still has lots uninsured people for healthcare, many who make too much to get welfare, but too little to afford it.

All your bullets are hogwash, sir.

We have the highest per 100k BUT...we also solve the vast majority of our crime, unlike most other countries - OR the countries (like China and Russia for example) do not report accurate information.

No, sorry but all petty drug use people are NOT in prison - that stopped a long time ago. The past 3 presidents have released the prisoners who had non-violent drug crimes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States

Taxes - ugh - not sure what you are talking about...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates

Military spending - we are obligated to spend a particular % of our GDP on the military per NATO, we stay right at that number. China and Russia, along with all the other not so free places do not report their actual spending. That said, no we dont spend 10x all other countries.

Homeless and rich - what - that is all made up. I am not saying there is not a wealth inequality issue in the US and its growing, but perhaps you should look around the world to see what bad is - visit Ukraine or any Middle Eastern country - or try all of South America. You will see its a world problem.

Healthcare argument is old - you should have tossed that out there 10 years ago. There needs to be improvements but I am willing to bet many of the people not insured are stubborn republicans.

Politics even reaching this forum. But that's sorta the point of this China standoff, right?

Sometimes, we can't pretend it's not a real thing... especially when it's right in front of us.

Even if it makes feel uncomfortable... or potentially costs us money. Ahem, ahem, Right, Mr. Silver? Steve Kerr? Others...

the ESPN article about the talk Silver had with the players in China is a little interesting (not really an in-depth article). https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27846109/sources-adam-silver-had-tense-meeting-lakers-nets-players-chinaespn

the players actually asked if Morey was going to get punished because if a player did it, the player would be hammered. I actually kind of agree with this a bit as well, Silver gets to decide what social cause is righteous and which are not. At the same time, we hear an awful lot about the players using their "platform" how they want with protection from the negative consequences.