It ain't a must win, yet - Wolves at Pelicans GDT

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AbeVigodaLive
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Re: It ain't a must win, yet - Wolves at Pelicans GDT

Post by AbeVigodaLive »

crazysauce wrote:

The saddest thing of all of this is the simple fact that if most people were losing night in and night out for the last two plus years (wiggins and towns and lavine) you would think you would realize that you need to change what your doing. Instead we just continually bang our head against the wall. Glad this team can get up for one or two games a season. Disgusted.



Why should.would they?

They have been mostly heralded for how they play. Both are looking at $100M+ in their near futures doing it the way they're doing it. Both are still considered among the most promising players in the game. Heck, Towns is being heralded as one of the most heralded players of the past couple of decades.

What incentive do they have to make that sacrifice at this point? They haven't been beaten down by losing. They haven't faced much criticism. And they're both extremely young and thus... still learning and maturing mentally and emotionally.

I wouldn't expect any "aha, I get it now!" drastic turnaround. I just hope it happens eventually.
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Coolbreeze44
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Re: It ain't a must win, yet - Wolves at Pelicans GDT

Post by Coolbreeze44 »

There is quite a bit of merit in what LST is presenting here. The bench is short and not used very much. The starters usually get off to a good start and then wear down as the game moves into the 2nd half. I don't think it's a problem for your star players to get 36 minutes most nights, but it has a cumulative effect. Our stars play too much when the game is out of reach one way or the other, or when they aren't playing well. KAT has decent stamina but Wiggins does not, at least not at this stage of his development. He's running on fumes out there right now. Both guys need to work on endurance training this offseason. It's probably the biggest single improvement Andrew can make. If it were my team, I'd rarely have Wig play stints longer than 6 minutes until his stamina improves. Play 6, sit 4, play 6, sit 4, play the last 6 minutes of each half. I think you would see a lot more consistent energy that way.
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Monster
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Re: It ain't a must win, yet - Wolves at Pelicans GDT

Post by Monster »

CoolBreeze44 wrote:There is quite a bit of merit in what LST is presenting here. The bench is short and not used very much. The starters usually get off to a good start and then wear down as the game moves into the 2nd half. I don't think it's a problem for your star players to get 36 minutes most nights, but it has a cumulative effect. Our stars play too much when the game is out of reach one way or the other, or when they aren't playing well. KAT has decent stamina but Wiggins does not, at least not at this stage of his development. He's running on fumes out there right now. Both guys need to work on endurance training this offseason. It's probably the biggest single improvement Andrew can make. If it were my team, I'd rarely have Wig play stints longer than 6 minutes until his stamina improves. Play 6, sit 4, play 6, sit 4, play the last 6 minutes of each half. I think you would see a lot more consistent energy that way.


I think you make a good point about Wiggins. Even this stretch where Wiggins hasn't been as good offensively...the guy has been running harder getting to the right spots more often game to game than I have ever seen. He may now realize what he has to do and train his body to do in the effort and conditioning dept.
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longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
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Re: It ain't a must win, yet - Wolves at Pelicans GDT

Post by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564] »

CoolBreeze44 wrote:There is quite a bit of merit in what LST is presenting here. The bench is short and not used very much. The starters usually get off to a good start and then wear down as the game moves into the 2nd half. I don't think it's a problem for your star players to get 36 minutes most nights, but it has a cumulative effect. Our stars play too much when the game is out of reach one way or the other, or when they aren't playing well. KAT has decent stamina but Wiggins does not, at least not at this stage of his development. He's running on fumes out there right now. Both guys need to work on endurance training this offseason. It's probably the biggest single improvement Andrew can make. If it were my team, I'd rarely have Wig play stints longer than 6 minutes until his stamina improves. Play 6, sit 4, play 6, sit 4, play the last 6 minutes of each half. I think you would see a lot more consistent energy that way.


I know I'm hyper-focused on this topic, but it's impossible to ignore the correlation between the extraordinary number of 2nd half collapses and Thibs' inadequate use of his bench. Conversely, on the rare occasions when he goes to his bench more or almost as much as his opposing coach, the Wolves win more often than not...it's very easy to chart.

I actually think there are three reasons this team seems so much more tired than its opponent late in games, as evidenced by tired legs on jump shots and lazy, grabbing defense.

1) While playing your starters 38 minutes vs. an opponents' 34 minutes might not sound significant, those few minutes of less rest on the bench can be vital to end of game performance. I just got back from a boys' ski trip, and talked a lot with a guy on the trip who, like me, played college basketball...albeit at a much higher level than me. (Off topic: our host for this annual trip is a member of the Wolves' ownership group, and we got some interesting insights into current thinking. I can't share them with you, but they are largely positive, and in especially one area a change in philosophy that may be good for the prospect of keeping all our young stars). He and I agreed about the concept of in-game rest. Sometimes we would be a little pissed when the coach took us out (unless we were totally gassed) but after awhile we appreciated the chance to recharge. And there was clearly a right amount of time on the bench we needed to come back at peak performance, and if the coach shortchanged that, it often limited our success. Thibs is a big outlier when it comes to how much time he allows his starters to rest per sitting, and that shortfall in rest minutes is quite evident in a negative way at crunch time.

2) Michael Rand writes in today's Strib that both KAT and Wig will play more than 3000 minutes this year. He points out that wasn't unusual in Jordan's day, but it is today. KAT, Wig and Zach will all rank in the top 5 this year in MPG, more proof of Thibs' outlier status.

3) I have no evidence that Thibs is continuing what he did in Chicago by having strenuous in-season practices, even on the day before games...but I also have no evidence that he has changed, and we know Joachim Noah for one has commented on this. If he is continuing to work his players hard on their off days, that could also be a factor in how ineffective they have been in second halves.

I've said it before and I will say it again. Other than the impact of potential devastating injuries, I see Thibs' poor rotations and exhausting coaching style as the biggest barrier to this very talented team reaching its enormous ceiling. I want to be optimistic given the superstar talent on this team and Thibs' obvious defensive coaching acumen, but I fear he is too dense and stubborn to adjust the coaching style he has always used...and that reduces my optimism considerably.
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60WinTim
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Re: It ain't a must win, yet - Wolves at Pelicans GDT

Post by 60WinTim »

I haven't done an analysis, but could the bench see less minutes in a game when it is not being productive?
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Coolbreeze44
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Re: It ain't a must win, yet - Wolves at Pelicans GDT

Post by Coolbreeze44 »

LST, reading between the lines I have to assume you are foreshadowing a willingness to go into the luxury tax to keep the band together, while maybe adding a key piece this summer. I hope I'm reading that right.
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longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
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Re: It ain't a must win, yet - Wolves at Pelicans GDT

Post by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564] »

60WinTim wrote:I haven't done an analysis, but could the bench see less minutes in a game when it is not being productive?


Tim, I haven't done a formal analysis on that either, but several times this season (most recently the Pelicans game) I have pointed out that the underutilized bench was comparable in +/- to the starters. Tyus Jones actually as the best plus/minus per 36 on the team, and Belly, Bazz and Rush all are close to zero in this measure (Aldrich and Dunn are not as good). Our second unit rebounds so well and plays such gritty defense that they seem to play the other team relatively even when they are on the court. It isn't always pretty, but they do seem to play effectively. Plus playing them has the added benefit of giving much needed rest to our weary starters.

Further, even though our reserves have been playing relatively even with the opponent while they are on the court, I would argue that they could be even more effective if they were given more minutes. NBA players always talk about how they need minutes to maintain their efficiency, and I would argue that Thibs isn't giving them the requisite minutes they need to excel. I think Cole is a good example of this. He managed to play 13 MPG on a Clippers team that is better than we are, and performed efficiently on both defense and offense. But with Thibs only giving him 8.7 MPG, his effectiveness has dropped of considerably. Cole doesn't complain, but you know he has to be frustrated not getting minutes after playing a regular shift on a playoff team last year.
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longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
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Re: It ain't a must win, yet - Wolves at Pelicans GDT

Post by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564] »

CoolBreeze44 wrote:LST, reading between the lines I have to assume you are foreshadowing a willingness to go into the luxury tax to keep the band together, while maybe adding a key piece this summer. I hope I'm reading that right.


You're a smart guy, cool...very confidentially, it seems there has been a change in attitude on the possibility of the lux tax down the line, as long as it doesn't get too punitive. We didn't discuss the second point, but as I look at the cap numbers, I see it unlikely that they will land a big piece this summer...doesn't mean they won't add a piece that will help, but only if it's on a bargain contract (and Thibs doesn't seem to want to play those kinds of guys). I understand there is plenty of cap space this year, but the issue comes when they have to pay the Big 3 down the road. Just paying them what they deserve will likely put us into the lux tax, and adding a 4th big contract by signing a big free agent this year would likely put them in a position where the resulting lux tax would simply be too punitive. But that is just my conjecture...there was no discussion on that issue.
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Monster
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Re: It ain't a must win, yet - Wolves at Pelicans GDT

Post by Monster »

longstrangetrip wrote:
CoolBreeze44 wrote:LST, reading between the lines I have to assume you are foreshadowing a willingness to go into the luxury tax to keep the band together, while maybe adding a key piece this summer. I hope I'm reading that right.


You're a smart guy, cool...very confidentially, it seems there has been a change in attitude on the possibility of the lux tax down the line, as long as it doesn't get too punitive. We didn't discuss the second point, but as I look at the cap numbers, I see it unlikely that they will land a big piece this summer...doesn't mean they won't add a piece that will help, but only if it's on a bargain contract (and Thibs doesn't seem to want to play those kinds of guys). I understand there is plenty of cap space this year, but the issue comes when they have to pay the Big 3 down the road. Just paying them what they deserve will likely put us into the lux tax, and adding a 4th big contract by signing a big free agent this year would likely put them in a position where the resulting lux tax would simply be too punitive. But that is just my conjecture...there was no discussion on that issue.


Interesting. Thanks for sharing LST.
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kekgeek
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Re: It ain't a must win, yet - Wolves at Pelicans GDT

Post by kekgeek »

I was honestly curious about the thesis that LST has brought up because I think that he is wrong that the minutes that the players are playing or the lack of minutes the bench is playing is the reason why the Wolves are losing games. So I wanted to see what the stats said so to see if what I think is right or wrong.

So I will be using the stats from after the all star break because we have had great wins and not so great losses.

So here are the minutes played for our big 3 (Rubio, Wiggins, Towns) since the all star break:

Towns

In Wins
Towns is averaging 36 minutes per game in wins

In Losses (For all 3 players I took out the 5 minute overtime against the Spurs
Towns is averaging 37 minutes per game in loses


Andrew Wiggins

In Wins
Wiggins is averaging 36 minutes per game in wins

In Losses
Wiggins is averaging 37 minutes per games in losses

*Andrew Wiggins had a game against the Jazz that he did not play a minute in the 4th quarter due to a blow out


Ricky Rubio

In WIns
Ricky Rubio is averaging 33 minutes per game in wins

In Losses
Ricky Rubio is averaging 32 minute per games in losses


So of our big 3 Wiggins and Towns play a grand total of 1 minute more per game in losses than in wins and Rickys numbers are a grand total of 1 minute less in loses than in wins since the all star break (6-6). So is that one minute for Towns and Wiggins really causing us the games I highly doubt that. LST you bring up how if you look the Wolves bench minutes compared to the opponents bench minutes the wolves are winning more games when Thibs plays the bench more, but there is one person skewing that data and that is Belly who was playing 24.2 minutes per game after the all star break compared to his 17 minutes per game before the all star break. Belly is skewing the conclusion you are coming to. Win or Loses our core 3 are playing identical minutes and that is not the reason we are losing games.


For the Wovles bench in wins compared to loses I looked at FG% on how they compared.

In Wins
60/139 = 43.2%

In Losses
61/133 = 45.9%

So the bench is shooting a little better in loses in than in wins (Shabazz usually plays real good in loses and I thought that was interesting from a FG% standpoint).


One last thing I looked at every team that is currently in the playoffs and there is a grand total of 1 player who is a top 3 player on their respective team that is in their first 3 years in the NBA and that is Jokic for the Nuggets (who are the 8th seed). It is hard to win with young players in the NBA and when healthy 3 of our top 4 players are in their 3rd year or less. And there is 1 player who is in another teams top 3 players in the playoffs in their first 3 years. Just something to think about.
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